I had the second Pfizer today. Was fine off the first dose, mostly fine off actually getting Covid….but this second dose has made me feel grim as feck. I had a big lunch afterwards (which in hindsight was dumb) and have felt sick as hell since. Why are the bloody microchips so much less palatable this time around?
The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll
- Thread starter Badunk
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I can of course appreciate all you say and I know a lot of people will feel the same. However, when people just can't be bothered getting a free vaccination or have been fooled by ridiculous conspiracy theories, why should everyone else be at higher risk because of them?
I may be biased because I took a risk getting the vaccination, as I'd previously had a very serious reaction to a supposedly-safe jab. When people who will have no ill-effects won't get it (well, apart from the minor discomfort it gives most people), it annoys me. If everyone had signed up when their age group was called, fewer people would have died and we'd all be back to normal in Europe.
Well I don't know what the status is in the UK or wherever you are, but here in The Netherlands we're ditching social distancing but introducing the passports. Doesn't make sense to me. It's not just ridiculous conspiracy theories either. It's far too easy to put everyone who hasn't got their jab yet in the "anti-vax" category. There are people who want to be very sure that there's no long term effects. There are people with certain allergies who can't get the vaccine. They're being classed as anti-vaxxers, while they really aren't. I know several who've consulted their doctors and have been advised not to vaccinate because of the risks involved, but who now have to test daily to be able to participate in society. These people are being overlooked and it boils my piss. Especially when you consider there's countries like Denmark who have said well we've reached 80%+ vaccinations so the risks to society have been reduced enough for us to go back to normal. The world has to realize this virus isn't going anywhere and there's always going to be a risk you'll get it. We've significantly reduced the risk by vaccinating over 80% of the population. Let's move on. There's plenty of scientists who support this.
I'm in Italy. They've taken a hard line all along.
People who can't have the vaccine should get a certificate to say they are exempt and shouldn't have to go through the same hoops as other people who have chosen not to have it. I was nearly in that category myself. One doctor said "don't have it" and another said "it's a greater risk not to have it."
The people who want to wait - well, the pandemic is happening now. They cant really wait any longer. Millions of people have had the vaccines and the vast majority are fine.
The people who medically are unable to get the vaccine are such a small minority its statistically insignificant,(0.x%-0.0x%) furthermore, on a personal level those people who cant get the vaccine are relying on everyone else to get theirs for them to be safer.
The same people who "dont want to put something unknown in their body" are the same people who are eating shit from mcdonalds and processed foods, and taking drugs from someone outside a festival toilet. if this is something you actually care about, prove it.
Some absolutist, perfect diet, perfect fitness, body is a temple type who lives in a monastery somewhere, ok fair enough you do you, on your head be it. There's nowhere near enough of these people for them to make up the numbers of vaccine hesitant people. and for every unnecessary unvaccinated person in society, the great risk of more variants, more lockdowns and worst of all, a vaccine resistant variant.
There is no viable reason to not get the vaccine at this stage unless you are in such a specialised minority that you should be needing everyone else to get theirs.
What does that even mean? What is “long term” in the context of this vaccine?
Statistically insignificant. Well, that'll sure make my friend feel better about her life right now. She's a healthy 25 year old. The virus poses no greater risk to her than to any other healthy 25 year old. The vaccine does. Or at least that's what her doctors tell her. Yes, there are risks to not vaccinating, obviously. As with anything and everything. But the majority of society have chosen to get vaccinated, and that should be enough. 85% should be enough. Most of the risk is mitigated. People should still have a choice. Same goes with smoking, alcohol, driving, and anything else that could be a risk to someone else. Maybe in 10 years the doubters will be proven right. I hope not as the majority (including me) would be fecked, but it could happen. Why should they have to prove anything? Why is it so black and white? So they don't want to take the vaccine, that should only be allowed if they prove that they don't put anything else in their body that's potentially harmful? How does that even work? People should be free to do what they feel is right. Whatever that may be.
From what I've heard it's a few more years at least. These vaccines have only been around for a short amount of time so in their minds there's no real proof that they don't cause long term damage. And I get that. I don't agree with it but I find it understandable.
If you continue reading the sentence I specified exactly what you rambled on to say. making a pity party about your friend is irrelevant when in the next half of the sentence I said that she needs other people to get vaccinated as she cant...
She doesn't need anyone to do anything though does she? On second thought the government could make her life a lot easier that much is true
There has literally never been a vaccine in the history of humanity that has had any effects outside of 8 weeks post-administration. The notion that there might be long-term effects is pure fiction.
A few years… good lord.
Does it really matter though? 85% vaccinated and rising. Hospitals doing relatively well. Does it really matter if say 10% choose not to vaccinate for whatever reason? We're never going to get 100%. And even if we do, it's not like you can't get or spread covid if you're vaccinated. Many virologists agree that covid is unlikely to go anywhere and that we should just get used to it.
The first bolded is a ridiculous question, the answer to which is that yes of course it does. We've already seen a more virulent variant emerge to become the more dominant strain (delta). There has also recently been the emergence of the Mu strain, which looks to be more resistant to vaccine-derived antibodies - this is the danger of allowing a significant unvaccinated pool that allows COVID to mutate unhampered.
The second bolded is also completely incorrect - the vaccines reduce the chance of spreading COVID but do not make it impossible. And again, allowing the virus to propagate in permissive hosts just makes it more likely that the immunity provided by the vaccines will be rendered obsolete.
I don’t think you understand how this works because you’ve got it completely backwards. If the vaccines completely stopped everyone who got one from ever catching or passing on covid then the difference between 85% and 95% really might not matter. Because the virus could be more or less wiped out anyway.
It’s because the virus can spread via vaccinated people (albeit at a much slower rate than in the unvaccinated) that it’s so important to vaccinate as many people as possible. The goal here is keeping people out of hospitals and the vaccines are absolutely excellent in this regard. But it’s a big fecking ask to rely on them to keep the un-vaccinated out of hospital.
I have a choice too, I don't want to be in an office with unvaxxed people
Maybe I should have worded it better. It matters, yes. It would be nice if we got to 95%. But at this point in time when our healthcare system can handle the load do we still need all these measures? There's always going to be the risk of a new super strain. Especially considering there's countries who haven't vaccinated anywhere near as much people as we have. But at what point do you say enough is enough, let's go back to normal?
The bolded part about you saying what I said was incorrect, is incorrect. You're basically saying the same thing I did. I never said vaccines make it impossible to spread the virus. I said you can still contract and spread Covid if you're vaccinated.
I get that vaccines are helping to keep people out of hospitals. That's basically the point of them and why I took it. And yes, the more we vaccinate the better. My point is we're never going to vaccinate everyone and with 85% and hospitals doing alright shouldn't we be giving more freedom back to society instead of doing the opposite by implementing ethically debatable passports? Like I said the virus is going nowhere and there's always going to be people ending up in hospital. Same as with smoking and alcohol and a million other things. There's always risks in society. I've reached the point where I feel the benefits of opening society back up outweigh the risks. I could be wrong of course, but that's how I feel
In The Netherlands you'd have a hard time considering privacy laws prohibit you from asking employees about medical stuff. Or, well you're allowed to ask but they don't have to answer or something like that.
Bearing in mind what you say here, I don’t understand why you seem to be arguing against measures intended to increase vaccine uptake.
Speak for yourself. I live in a state with under 50% of people vaccinated and our hospitals are so full that they can’t hardly treat new patients.
@TheMagicFoolBus and @Pogue Mahone have covered the rest already.
Apologies for mis-reading your original post - that's on me 100% and I feel bad for mischaracterising your position.
Fundamentally I guess I just disagree with your premise - I do think we still need these measures. Part of the problem is the nature of COVID disease progression - it's extremely protracted and massively labour-intensive for hospital staff. Whilst right now hospitals might be ok, there still remains little margin for error in terms of ventilators, ICU beds in negative pressure rooms, etc. Pushing the population to get vaccinated to avoid future doomsday scenarios cannot be a bad thing - given the nature of this virus we as a society have to accept some degree of collective responsibility.
Correct, you can ask but no need to answer, there goes my choice right there, maybe my freedom too.
Okay I’m just going to come out and say it — I’m not getting jabbed.
Truth is, I have really bad anxiety and if I get jabbed I will think that Ill have myocarditis or some blood clots. Before you unload on me, consider this, I used to be an athlete but I have completely grinded my life to a hault. I used to take all sorts of shit every weekend but now I DM Pogue to see if it’s alright that I mix CBD oil with a tiny dose of beta blockers. I mean there is no way I could take these jabs.
Truth is, I have really bad anxiety and if I get jabbed I will think that Ill have myocarditis or some blood clots. Before you unload on me, consider this, I used to be an athlete but I have completely grinded my life to a hault. I used to take all sorts of shit every weekend but now I DM Pogue to see if it’s alright that I mix CBD oil with a tiny dose of beta blockers. I mean there is no way I could take these jabs.
Have you had covid already?
Covid has been tough and there's no easy way to talk about it, or to avoid the anxiety - whether around the jab or the virus.
In general terms - Covid is a killer. Myocarditis and blood clots are more common after catching covid unprotected than after taking the vaccine. I know that doesn't help reduce the anxiety, but it's useful for everyone to remember that this is isn't about risk or no risk.
Covid won't be going away. Over the next couple of years we will all be exposed to it multiple times. When we catch it there will be an element of luck about how serious it will be - the vaccine reduces our chances of stopping it before the infection takes hold, and improves our chances of it not being serious even if we do get symptoms.
But if you don't want the vaccine then you still need to do your bit to avoid infecting other people.
If you're in the UK test yourself a couple of times a week with a LFT test kit - symptoms or not. If you get a positive LFT or get symptoms, quarantine yourself and do a PCR test. Wear a mask when you're indoors with other people. In the UK this winter, if you're living any kind of normal life, you will catch it, just try not to pass it on - don't be the super-spreader at the wedding or the one who gives it to one of the bereaved at a funeral.
While I'm pro vaccination (and as I've said I'm fully vaccinated), that doesn't mean that I think the end always justifies the means. There are many factors government have to weigh against each other and they have to find the right balance. In my opinion things like freedom of choice and privacy are brushed aside too easily and we have to consider the precedent this sets. It also doesn't sit right with me that our government are pouring tons of money into stuff like Covid passports and the means to enforce them while they consistently refuse to provide more funds to healthcare in general. It has been budget cut after budget cut for healthcare for years despite warnings from hospitals and other organisations. Flu season has been tough for hospitals for years. Still, the current government are blocking motions from other parties to increase funding for healthcare, even now that we're in a health crisis.
Obviously everything I've said is based on the situation here in The Netherlands where we have an 80+% (around 85% at the moment I believe) vaccination rate and hospitals are doing, relatively, fine. How come vaccine uptake in your state is so low?
In your case maybe ignorance is bliss. If you don't know that your colleague isn't vaccinated..
The problem is the hospitals are doing relatively fine now (in one sense, in another we are being told we all need to pay more NI just to get them back on their feet), but then there's the winter months. Something a quarter as bad as last year hospital numbers wise would still be an extremely bad situation at that point.
That said I'm not really pro vaccine passports either as some people have legitimate reasons to be concerned over a vaccine. They are also to my mind a bit pointless when you don't actually need one to prove you are double vaccinated, and they would only work with a get around of being able to provide a negative test instead, which renders them completely pointless anyway as surely it would make more sense for everyone to prove a negative test for a large scale event or gathering anyway.
I'm all for measures that encourage everyone who can get a vaccine to get one. The problem I have with the passports is they just seem like a dumb idea, and there's an element of people latching onto them to try and enforce others to have vaccines in order to enjoy fairly basic freedoms, which is just stupid.
It's also a bit of a weird road to take when we can't even keep up with vaccinating the people who WANT to be vaccinated yet. We've done well to get to where we have but surely the bigger concerns at the moment are this and the decreasing effectiveness of the original vaccines against the dellta variant.
The more get vaccinated the less chance of virus variants and the sooner we get out of this. It’s really that simple
Ireland's a great example of vaccine certificates in action after a helluva long lockdown compared to other European countries, correct me lads if I'm wrong but essentially
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...all-covid-19-restrictions-october-2021-08-31/
- 80% of over 12s are fully vaccinated
- 90% of adults double jabbed
- vaccine certificates in bars and restaurants due to be dropped in later October due to vaccine uptake, with phased easing in other areas
- non-essential workers back in office from today
One of the concerns regarding vaccine passports/passes is their implications in the long term for freedoms, but surely this is proof of concept for efficacy of vaccine mandate in action as a good, society-benefitting, temporary measure and surely counters worries regarding tyranical government overreach?
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...all-covid-19-restrictions-october-2021-08-31/
- 80% of over 12s are fully vaccinated
- 90% of adults double jabbed
- vaccine certificates in bars and restaurants due to be dropped in later October due to vaccine uptake, with phased easing in other areas
- non-essential workers back in office from today
One of the concerns regarding vaccine passports/passes is their implications in the long term for freedoms, but surely this is proof of concept for efficacy of vaccine mandate in action as a good, society-benefitting, temporary measure and surely counters worries regarding tyranical government overreach?
Because I live in a Trumper / GQP hellscape
Had my second jab a few weeks ago, 37 years old, Moderna. Felt fine until day or so later when I started getting palpitations. Checked online and the official advice was to contact the docs. The GP seemed unconcerned but sent me for an ECG, which showed nothing, although by that time I had some mild chest pain.
They seemed really reluctant to actually engage with me on this. I've been sent for a 24 hour tape, but having read some (very much) anecdotal stuff online about how this has been more common than is generally reported, I stared on ordinary ibuprofen to take down any mild heart inflammation and now I'm pretty much fine. Scary stuff though.
They seemed really reluctant to actually engage with me on this. I've been sent for a 24 hour tape, but having read some (very much) anecdotal stuff online about how this has been more common than is generally reported, I stared on ordinary ibuprofen to take down any mild heart inflammation and now I'm pretty much fine. Scary stuff though.
Yup. That’s my take on it too. And everything you’ve said there is correct.
I think that's the problem some people have. Once the genie is out of the bottle, history suggests it's difficult to put it back in.
On the face of it, passports are sensible, but the idea of discriminating against someone who chooses not to do something (as they should be free to do) is something I'm pretty uncomfortable with.
A lot of what you see online about things like passports i.e. likening it to Nazi Germany is clearly nonsense, but at the heart of the argument there's a relevant issue with implications in the future.
There's also an issue, I think with encouraging vaccines (as, in this instance we should) but failing to address the general issue of poor health and obesity which is clearly having a huge impact.
I have had Covid. Felt rough for a couple of days but mostly fine after some mild symptoms. So yeah I have an anxiety around my health. You could say I suffer from hypochondria well my gp certainly thinks so. I take the vaccine and I’ll completely freak out. Again I’m pro vaccine I think it’s good that people are vaccinated and it’s obviously saving a lot of lives.
That’s a weird “issue” to bring up. Obviously obesity and public health in general is something we should always be looking to improve. Equally obviously, it will never be 100% ‘fixed’. No matter how much time and money is invested. So why should it have any relevance to the roll out of this vaccine?
It doesn't, per se, I'd just like to see a bit more honesty from those in power, especially whilst we're trying to focus people's minds on on heath issues.
We saw it mentioned, briefly, when Boris was ill and then largely nothing since. There seems a reluctance to make the point that if you are overweight and unfit, you are likely to suffer more seriously if you get covid.
It’s easy enough to see why they don’t want to go down that path. Any implication that losing weight/getting fitter reduces your covid risk could fuel the “I’m thin and healthy, so not in any danger” misinformation doing the rounds.
i mean I just put forward an example of where they introduced vaccine passes and then took them away in Ireland once rates went down so there’s that
also they’ve been used before, e.g. yellow card, mandatory childhood jabs for schools without us turning into dystopian totalitarian states
Maybe. But since this is about saving lives then surely it's something which should be made clear to people.
We've had 18 months plus of covid; plenty of time for people to make a materiel difference to their health. Perhaps even enough of a difference to save them from complications, or worse.
We're living in strange times I suppose, and many will see things that aren't there.
I remain uncomfortable with the idea of discrimination on any grounds, and still take the view that if you don't want to be jabbed, that's your right - even if I can't understand why you wouldn't just have it, despite the slightly concerning adverse reaction I had.
Do you really think there are many people out there who are unaware that getting slimmer/healthier would improve their overall health? Either with regard to covid or in general? Surely that’s all common knowledge?