The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll
- Thread starter Badunk
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Half arsed
Or if the data they're using is correct, then they've taken a risk/benefit approach and concluded that the first dose is worth it, but the second dose may not be appropriate in this age group. There is no certainty on this, which is why different countries are handling it differently.
I really don't know enough to tell them (or the Norwegian regulators) that they're wrong.
If that's accurate then it's news. For Javid to know it won't be going through MHRA approval implies a big change in status.
@lynchie are you still in their trial or have you already moved to an approved vaccine?
Big call to make considering Phase 3 results not out. Shareholders will be furious if Javid got hold of critical information about safety/efficacy before they did.
Good thread on latest PHE data re potential waning efficacy.
tl;dr
Some waning in efficacy vs infection. More so with AZ than Pfizer. Generally very little waning vs protection against severe disease. Other than in the most elderly/clinically vulnerable.
Valneva not ready to admit defeat yet. They've told their trialists that the trial and approval process continues. Hmmm.
Strange decision to press ahead with MHRA approval in the absence of any commitment from the UK to buy. Javid’s statement today may come back to haunt him.
I'm still on the trial. Been kind of suspicious about the results, since they started the approvals process without any announcements on preliminary results, like I remember from the other vaccines, and the date for releasing actual results seems to have been pushed back a few times now. If there are results showing it isn't good enough, they really need to share that so we can get covered with something else before the rush for boosters begins.
I've got the form for my boy to have the jab (12) but I'm really not sure I'm for it.
A lot of it has to do with both me and my missus having medical issues since having the second jab, both of us are struggling to get a Dr's appointment and much help at all and have had to do a lot of research on it all ourselves which of course is far from ideal.
So even though I've been completely pro vaccine up until now, I find myself wavering and I don't feel comfortable forcing him to have one now if I have growing doubts.
This is now a far tougher decision that having mine, which I did without hesitation. It also doesn't help we only just have the form, but the deadline is Friday, that seems rather like trying to force the hand.
A lot of it has to do with both me and my missus having medical issues since having the second jab, both of us are struggling to get a Dr's appointment and much help at all and have had to do a lot of research on it all ourselves which of course is far from ideal.
So even though I've been completely pro vaccine up until now, I find myself wavering and I don't feel comfortable forcing him to have one now if I have growing doubts.
This is now a far tougher decision that having mine, which I did without hesitation. It also doesn't help we only just have the form, but the deadline is Friday, that seems rather like trying to force the hand.
I don't envy you. It is a tough call. My son is 10 and I think when we have data for his age and it's approved I'll get it for him.
I still think the risks of covid are greater than the vaccine, even if the risks of covid related effects for kids is so low to begin with. Look at this info graph for some idea
Or if the data they're using is correct, then they've taken a risk/benefit approach and concluded that the first dose is worth it, but the second dose may not be appropriate in this age group. There is no certainty on this, which is why different countries are handling it differently.
I really don't know enough to tell them (or the Norwegian regulators) that they're wrong.
Thanks mate. I've been doing a lot of reading, including this thread, but I definitely am mostly put off by the fact me and my partner are having separate issues. Of course they could be completely unrelated (though it seems increasingly unlikely), but the more we read and the more I realise there's a lot of information missing and it's definitely put the doubt in my mind. As I said it doesn't help by having to wait over a month for a Dr's appointment and pretty much all the medical advice we've had can be summed up by "maybe".
It now feels like I could be putting him at risk more that saving him from it, despite what the (incomplete) data may say. And I'm struggling to shake that feeling and don't see how I will in the 2 days I've been given to decide.
Though of course him getting it down the line is an option anyway.
My neighbour has a 14 year old who tested positive through school before the summer holidays, no symptoms whatsoever and all the rest of the family are double jabbed so they aren’t going to get jabbed. I think there will be a lot like that .
Dunno if it helps (it probably won’t!) but my 12 year old is already vaccinated.
I did a LOT of reading on all the pros and cons and even the most negative slant on all the available data has a marginal benefit for kids his age getting the jab. And that’s without taking into account the benefits in terms of not needing to isolate as a close contact (possibly multiple times this year) or 10 days out of school it he catches covid himself. It also ignores the possibility of long terms consequences of covid infection. Which we know just as little about as we do about long term consequences of vaccination, other than there is no vaccination equivalent to “long covid”
What really sealed the deal for me is that he tends to get viral illnesses worse than most. When cold/flu bugs go round our house his sister (aged 10) can get away with a few sniffles while he ends up slumped on the couch with a high fever. This had me convinced he is more likely than other kids to be properly floored by covid.
Taking all of that into account it was an easy decision for me to take. Obviously you’ll have to make your own call. Best of luck!
Apologies if I've contributed to that confusion. Personally, I find the debate amongst the JCVI and the other doctors reassuring - they really have focused on the best interests of the kids. But I admit that's about kids on average. And I admit that not everyone finds it comforting to know that the national advice came after a serious debate, rather than as a slam dunk.
The under 16s in my extended family have already been double vaxxed (without problems). In one case because of her own health, the other two because their mum is immune compromised. In a sense though they had the easy decision - the kids wanted the jab as soon as they heard they could have it and their parents were happy about that.
Yep, being involved in a trial comes with risks - but you assume your risk is about that initial safety/efficacy gamble.
If you're supposed to also do a risk assessment of the company's ability to manufacture to plan and deliver on time then the risk gets stupidly high (and not the one you think you signed up for). If this is about early results and efficacy then it's different again - keeping people on a failed trial is unethical and puts you at unnecessary risk.
Of course the whole business of international travel adds a compounding factor to the story. Hopefully you'll get a proper update from your trial soon, and proper guidance on how to get a deployed vaccine if it isn't getting approved or if approval is still months away.
And yes, this does mean I'm still scanning the business headlines everyday looking for the news that Novavax have actually submitted their final manufacturing data to the MHRA, or EMA, or the CDC or the dustbin or anyone. I'm taking it kind of personally now
and with no communication from the trial team on boosters or anything else in weeks - I'm worried that the first I'll hear of a problem is a headline reporting a cancelled contact.Cheers guys. The problem definitely comes from our medical issues rather than a simple case of whether it's right or wrong vs covid (which is a no brainer under normal circumstances). It has scared me that we both have different issues now which are possibly to related to the vaccines, yet neither of us can get a Dr's appointment any time soon or any real answers. That's extremely odd and worrying to me, and with the rush timeframe to make a decision, something really is nagging my mind.
I'm going to sit and talk to him again later about it, also I'll ask what his friends are all doing purely out of interest not as a factor in my decision of course!, as I've kept him as informed as I could be all during this. But honestly, right now, I don't know which way I'm going to go. I had absolutely no doubts in getting mine, signed up straight away. But I have doubts here, not even so much in the safety of it overall, but the need to do it right now without knowing about our issues. If I could sit with a Dr this week (rather than the rather useless triage/111 which have both said "possibly") and get checked over then that would obviously be ideal. But alas we both have to wait almost a month.
Yeah it's unlikely I know, and the data supports that and I'm glad to hear you guys have all been fine. But in my household we are looking at potentially 2 for 2 with issues, and both aren't just problems that will definitely be mild and go away. Mine possibly, but the mrs has a serious issue that seems to be affecting more and more women, but with worryingly little actual information on it with regards to the vaccine.
I think the next step will be to see if I can find out how easy it is to get him a jab down the line. The letter itself kind of reads like it's this or nothing, which again I'm finding rather odd and I think a lot of other parents might do too.
Tough call @Redlambs
I hope you can get a GP appointment soon. No chance of an ‘emergency’ appointment?
I hope you can get a GP appointment soon. No chance of an ‘emergency’ appointment?
I wouldn`t be rushed into doing it as I am sure you will be able to arrange it further down the line after speaking to a GP.
Valneva story continues. Did Javid tell fibs to Parliament, or did he merely overstep his competence? I can see the Valneva counter-claim for damages over the cancelled contract taking shape as we speak...
The rumour/guess from people like the FT is that its performance in the booster trial wasn't good enough to be worth keeping it on order. Combine that with the trial having few over 50s - because they were already jabbed when the trial kicked off - and it's a tough one for the company. Which leaves the UK trialists in limbo, unless they choose to go to a walk-in centre and lie (or fight their way to a sympathetic and daring doctor) - which might get them dose 1 of something but won't necessarily fix their travel status etc. Not great.
The rumour/guess from people like the FT is that its performance in the booster trial wasn't good enough to be worth keeping it on order. Combine that with the trial having few over 50s - because they were already jabbed when the trial kicked off - and it's a tough one for the company. Which leaves the UK trialists in limbo, unless they choose to go to a walk-in centre and lie (or fight their way to a sympathetic and daring doctor) - which might get them dose 1 of something but won't necessarily fix their travel status etc. Not great.
Shocking the way trial J&J/Valneva subjects have been so screwed over. Obviously all done with best of intentions and at unprecedented speed but still...
Hopefully some learnings for this before the next pandemic. Otherwise will be serious problems with recruitment.
Now its close to 83 or 84%
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...0-population-against-covid-19-2021-09-15/?utm
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...0-population-against-covid-19-2021-09-15/?utm
That's brilliant.
The AZ and J&J people have now all had vaccines approved by MHRA and EMA but some are still struggling to get all the right boxes ticked for foreign travel vaccine passports. The Novavax lot are still saying "soon" and "should be this month" but they've said that since March. And now Valneva has effectively been trashed by the Health minister.
I received a mailer from NHIR today. Saying they're sorry that us trialists are effectively banned from certain countries (like Ireland) and have to pay for extra test PCR tests for others (like Spain) but that they can't overrule foreign entry requirements and no, they won't be covering the costs of extra PCR tests, or forced cancellations etc. And no, they can't advise on booster policy or give us a standard letter to take to vaccine walk-in centres saying that if we want a deployed vaccine, just let us have it. Nor can they can help trialists who have left trials to take approved vaccines get their vaccine passports sorted out - they currently show first dose of the trial vaccine + second dose of the approved one, which still gets them rejected by border control!
It then invited me to sign up for another trial
Completing the trial circle - OK, I've cracked, I give in. I've just sent a message to my Novavax trial team saying that I quit. I learned tonight that approval has been delayed again. Over the course of the year it's moved from April, to Q2, to July to September at latest, and now it's not going to MHRA or EMA until sometime in Q4 - probably November. Maybe. Or maybe not.
I can't actually book to get a real vaccine as my NHS record says that I'm fully vaccinated. First task tomorrow, getting a letter from the trial site to take to a walk-in vaccination site that has a qualified senior doctor available to let me sign a consent form admitting that I went ahead with another jab knowing the risks.
Mind you, even if I get two doses of Pfizer I still may not actually get a vaccine passport - currently the first vaccine and last one are recorded by the app. Which for ex-trialists means the trial vaccine and the second dose of Pfizer which is an unapproved combination
No good deed goes unpunished eh.
On a more globally significant note. This vaccine is one the the GAVI/Covax initiative is relying on to vaccinate a billion or so people so the schedule drift (or outright failure?) matters.
I can't actually book to get a real vaccine as my NHS record says that I'm fully vaccinated. First task tomorrow, getting a letter from the trial site to take to a walk-in vaccination site that has a qualified senior doctor available to let me sign a consent form admitting that I went ahead with another jab knowing the risks.
Mind you, even if I get two doses of Pfizer I still may not actually get a vaccine passport - currently the first vaccine and last one are recorded by the app. Which for ex-trialists means the trial vaccine and the second dose of Pfizer which is an unapproved combination
No good deed goes unpunished eh.
On a more globally significant note. This vaccine is one the the GAVI/Covax initiative is relying on to vaccinate a billion or so people so the schedule drift (or outright failure?) matters.
What is the view on 3rd booster doses lads and lasses? Pfizer in my case. They will probably message me to take the booster in a few months or so, is it confirmed that 3rd Pfizer booster is perfectly safe or is it still under observation?
Perfectly safe, go get it and enjoy the protections. Expecting my wife (front line health worker) to be offered it soon also.
It's perfectly safe - the questions over implementing the policy in the US at least are not down to a matter of safety & effectiveness but more one of efficiency of distribution (we'll see what the FDA advisory panel recommends today I believe). If you're offered a third shot there's no reason to turn it down though!
Completing the trial circle - OK, I've cracked, I give in. I've just sent a message to my Novavax trial team saying that I quit. I learned tonight that approval has been delayed again. Over the course of the year it's moved from April, to Q2, to July to September at latest, and now it's not going to MHRA or EMA until sometime in Q4 - probably November. Maybe. Or maybe not.
I can't actually book to get a real vaccine as my NHS record says that I'm fully vaccinated. First task tomorrow, getting a letter from the trial site to take to a walk-in vaccination site that has a qualified senior doctor available to let me sign a consent form admitting that I went ahead with another jab knowing the risks.
Mind you, even if I get two doses of Pfizer I still may not actually get a vaccine passport - currently the first vaccine and last one are recorded by the app. Which for ex-trialists means the trial vaccine and the second dose of Pfizer which is an unapproved combination
No good deed goes unpunished eh.
On a more globally significant note. This vaccine is one the the GAVI/Covax initiative is relying on to vaccinate a billion or so people so the schedule drift (or outright failure?) matters.
Sounds a fair enough decision - they must have all the data they could use from you at this point anyway no? I've been swaying both ways - currently staying on the trial on the basis that the Phase 1/2 results were good, and no one has actually seen any Phase 3 results, so Javid likely talking balls. Some suggestions that he was even mixing it up with CureVac.
I do hope Valneva comes through, in part because there are a lot of soft antivaxxers out there waiting on it, because of its "traditional" credentials, and some of them will delve deeper into conspiracy if it does get canned without clear reasons.
Pretty worrying that even if I quit, my vaccine status will be a mess and I'll still be stuck passport-wise. Pretty sure that wasn't part of the risk assessment when I signed up!
Yep, Novavax have got the full Phase 3 data on efficacy and safety. They don't have data on waning - other than as antibody measures - but realistically I don't think they've got the participant numbers to build up a good profile for that anyway.
Novavax was another of the ones touted as an alternative by some brands of anti-mRNA- vaxxers. So yes, another tick in the conspiracy column there!
Valneva like Novavax was also one of those viewed as easy to deploy, with simple logistics - a vaccine that could be used anywhere with fridge storage etc. So, bad news in that respect as well.
The wheels are in motion on my escape from the trial. I now have the trial's letter to my GP who has been asked to approve me getting two doses of something, a kind of special dispensation. What a mess, especially as it isn't about safety or efficacy in Novavax's case - I'd be happy to stay on the trial if it was just about the science. It's actually about me being able to travel to Ireland - where currently I'd have to quarantine in addition to having multiple tests - I've already had to cancel two trips and as things stand I can't even start planning a third.
Meanwhile, the local paper covering the factory think that it could be 2022 - sometime, so I've got to act:
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/n...-novavax-faces-delays-may-not-ready-til-2022/
We're getting closer to knowing who is still at his risk of becoming seriously ill with covid even after vaccination:
The researchers have produced a kind of calculator (for doctors to use) to work out who is at highest risk. It could affect guidance on shielding, but it also has an impact on treatment recommendations. It might help them prescribe the new antibody treatments quickly to the people most likely to need them.
The researchers have produced a kind of calculator (for doctors to use) to work out who is at highest risk. It could affect guidance on shielding, but it also has an impact on treatment recommendations. It might help them prescribe the new antibody treatments quickly to the people most likely to need them.
JVT confirms the vaccine clinical trials run by the NHS have been a disaster - for the participants.
https://www.theguardian.com/society...XJCZkQI9m4ADcE1ae6v5ydB_og1cP50eYm5m9qDiDhWXQ
Sorry for the clickbait description. They're not a disaster - they aren't killing people. They are stopping us travelling, and the participants will probably tell their mates never to participate in a trial that matters during a pandemic which isn't a great outcome.
https://www.theguardian.com/society...XJCZkQI9m4ADcE1ae6v5ydB_og1cP50eYm5m9qDiDhWXQ
Sorry for the clickbait description. They're not a disaster - they aren't killing people. They are stopping us travelling, and the participants will probably tell their mates never to participate in a trial that matters during a pandemic
which isn't a great outcome.It's a disgrace - anyone who volunteered to be the first shouldn't have lost out. It's astonishing that the travel issues/certification haven't been resolved by now.JVT confirms the vaccine clinical trials run by the NHS have been a disaster - for the participants.
https://www.theguardian.com/society...XJCZkQI9m4ADcE1ae6v5ydB_og1cP50eYm5m9qDiDhWXQ
Sorry for the clickbait description. They're not a disaster - they aren't killing people. They are stopping us travelling, and the participants will probably tell their mates never to participate in a trial that matters during a pandemic
edit - you could just have a special pass with "Clinical Trial Participant" on it. There are only 19,000, it's not like it's millions of people.
The UK domestic pass works, and it looks like people like JVT have kept it on the agenda so trial participants keep getting their own explicit category on quarantine rules etc within the UK. It probably helps that Kate Bingham (who ran the UK vaccine procurement team) is (or was, I assume she's out by now) on the Novavax trial and so were some MPs.
It's the international side where there's no agreement, and to be fair I can understand that. Are all trials, of all vaccines (or vaccine "alternatives"), in all countries to be viewed the same - because no one will agree to that.
Back in the old days (ie: pre Brexit) I'd have been hopeful that a deal could have been struck through EMA to sanction the trials supervised by the MHRA. Now that kind of thing all relies on goodwill
The UK has made a concession this week - they've accepted that mix and match vaccines (like AZ first dose, Pfizer second) used in some EU countries are valid vaccines. Slow progress, even on the basics.
https://www.thelocal.it/20210919/vaccine-bookings-spike-after-italy-extends-covid-pass/
It may be draconian, but it works.
Of course it works, it's happened here too, I just wish companies would do this but freedoms and all that shite
Italy's taken it out of company hands, the law applies to the private sector too.
It's ridiculous. "Vaccinate or lose your job". I'm pro vaccination (and thus am fully vaccinated with Moderna) but this is taking it too far. It should still be a choice. It's your body and you should be able to decide what you do with it.
The corona passport is being introduced here in The Netherlands. Don't know why, since even though government have been cutting funds for healthcare for decades hospitals are still doing alright. Alright being, yes they're understaffed but they have been for years. Over 80% of adults are fully vaxxed. Are they giving hospitals / health care more funds? No. But they're still introducing the passports. They're debating whether or not to make it legal for companies demand their employees to vaccinate. Why? Right now there is no problem. It doesn't make sense to introduce something as extreme as this now. It's not going to make Covid go away. We still have to live with it. It's unethical. Of course it "works". People don't want to lose their jobs and want to be able to go to a restaurant. But is this really the way to go about things?
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