The Trump Presidency - Part 2

[RoadTrip]

I don't think this is true, Brexit proved that there isn't any real feeling of European belonging. UK is pretty much a vassal of the US (to a lesser extent other European countries are too), Iraq pretty much proved this and recently the whole Sacoolas incident .

Starmer looked shit scared in his meeting and looked like he was choosing his words carefully not in a good way, more like he was scared. Inviting for a state visit was even more rediculous, Trump did nothing to earn that and just goes to show he can do whatever he wants and the UK will treat it as a one way 'special relationship' .

I disagree. In my view there’s very little to gain out of a meeting with Trump unless you fully subscribe to his world view. And the UK and Starmer obviously does not. In the end, we pandered to his ego in a broadly superficial way without actually giving away anything of substance.

On that basis, I’d class the Starmer visit as a success. Of course he could have flat out disagreed with Trump and voiced all the differences in opinions but to what gain? Instead he played the long game.

The UK will always seek a special relationship with the US. But, I think it’s foolish to also think that the UK would sell out Europe for that relationship.

 

[Fenômeno]

I disagree. In my view there’s very little to gain out of a meeting with Trump unless you fully subscribe to his world view. And the UK and Starmer obviously does not. In the end, we pandered to his ego in a broadly superficial way without actually giving away anything of substance.

On that basis, I’d class the Starmer visit as a success. Of course he could have flat out disagreed with Trump and voiced all the differences in opinions but to what gain? Instead he played the long game.

The UK will always seek a special relationship with the US. But, I think it’s foolish to also think that the UK would sell out Europe for that relationship.

And that just proves my point that the UK will never go against the US, which was the topic of discussion. Also Starmer could have done all those things and not extended invitation for a state visit.

 

[Rams]

That's what I mean. The European market is enormously fractured, there is no European army, etc. because of various regulations and every country putting their own interests above those of the collective. And we do lack behind in terms of innovation, there are no two ways above it.

Those things primarily stem from vanity and maybe the recent developments are the push needed to set them aside.




I see your point but let's say Harris would have been elected because critics of her Israel politics voted the lesser evil but still made themselves heard through demonstrations or whatever. Trump losing for a second time could have led to the GoP reassessing their strategies and take more centrist positions again. If they become electable again, the Israel politics of the Democrats would suddenly provide a great opportunity for them to turn voters in their favor again.

I mean, this obviously works much better if there are more than two parties but it still can work.

The Innovation part can’t be true because Europe has a powerful high tech arms industry, it has the best innovative & impact based educational organizations in the World and it produces more qualified engineers per capita than any other region in the World. Don’t believe all the misinformation you’re reading.

 

[Zen86]

I don't think this is true, Brexit proved that there isn't any real feeling of European belonging. UK is pretty much a vassal of the US (to a lesser extent other European countries are too), Iraq pretty much proved this and recently the whole Sacoolas incident .

Starmer looked shit scared in his meeting and looked like he was choosing his words carefully not in a good way, more like he was scared. Inviting for a state visit was even more rediculous, Trump did nothing to earn that and just goes to show he can do whatever he wants and the UK will treat it as a one way 'special relationship' .

There wasn’t really any other option for Starmer. It was pure appeasement and flattery at a particularly volatile time, anything else would have instantly burnt bridges. I very much doubt he’s treating this as a one-way special relationship, I’m sure he’s well aware of what the US is about right now.

 

[JPRouve]

The UK’s importance is as a mediator between the US and Europe. We’re out of the EU and the US is acting out against its allies. The role is the tread the line but we’re not as close to either side as we once were.

I didn't where your conversation was going but I think that you nailed it with your final remark. The UK somehow managed to distance themselves from all their alles. On a side note that concerns the UK, the US and France, a couple of weeks ago I saw the submarine debacle mentioned as a mistake in Australian news, so I tried to find out what happened.
https://www.rfi.fr/en/international...stralia-go-back-on-aukus-deal-buy-french-subs

No submarines available​

In September 2023, the US Congress introduced the "Aukus Undersea Defense Act" providing "for the transfer of not more than two Virginia class submarines" to Australia.

In December, Congress confirmed this in its 2024 National Defense Authorization Act.

But according to Briggs, the US won't be able to sell these subs. "The US are 17 short of submarines now. They haven't ordered any extra to provide a surplus to allow the sale of some of their older submarines to us. So, the Virginias won't be available for sale. And our submarine capability will die with the Collins class".

On top of that, Briggs says, the projected SSN Aukus is "too big, too expensive". Manning an SSN Aukus requires some 130 people. "We cannot afford to operate 12 of these large submarines, which is the minimum we need for an effective deterrent".

His solution? Go back to the French, who were left high and dry by the Aukus deal.

Even when it comes to business you can't trust them.

 

[Fenômeno]

There wasn’t really any other option for Starmer. It was pure appeasement and flattery at a particularly volatile time, anything else would have instantly burnt bridges. I very much doubt he’s treating this as a one-way special relationship, I’m sure he’s well aware of what the US is about right now.

Just proves my point really Trump can say and do what he likes and the UK will tow the line.

One clear example or this is Starmer was always concrete about backing Ukraine in the war and there was never any hint of a ceasefire/negotiation any time he spoke about it. As soon as Trump gets elected this changes and he starts to align more with Trump's position of negotiating and making a deal. UK will throw everyone under the bus to side with the US there is no evidence to the contrary.

 

[RoadTrip]

And that just proves my point that the UK will never go against the US, which was the topic of discussion. Also Starmer could have done all those things and not extended invitation for a state visit.

Pandering to Trump’s ego. Yes we are selling our soul but in the grand scheme of things it’s better to take that position with any hope of making all parties unite against Russia, which whether we like it or not is stronger if it includes the US. Do I agree with inviting him? Hell no. Do I really care? Probably not. I don’t think our allies see that as us aligning to the USs views on Ukraine. That much is obvious. Starmer is just trying to tread a fine line.

And no, it doesn’t prove your point. The UK would do all it could to maintain its relations with the UK, but there is a line. A line that’s further away than it should be, but as I said, if it ever came to aligning for our existence between the US and Europe we would choose Europe.

 

[Zen86]

I didn't where your conversation was going but I think that you nailed it with your final remark. The UK somehow managed to distance themselves from all their alles.

Pretty much yeah. That said, I would bet my house that Starmer is trying to rebuild ties with the EU as quickly as possible now behind the scenes. Even if he’s toeing the line with Trump publicly for as long as possible.

 

[ManUtd1999]

This election was about voting against too. Voting against the evil, bloated orange turd this thread is about. Sometimes you have to vote against. Maybe a candidate more to your tastes will step forward one day. Meanwhile do the right thing FFS. When you have a presidential candidate who surrounds himself with and endorses actual racists and borderline fascists it’s really not difficult to know what you need to do on election day.

Spot on.

In the dying weeks of the campaign, I was amazed to see some people not only refusing to vote for Harris, but even saying that Trump would be better, even better for the Palestinians.

There wasn’t really any other option for Starmer. It was pure appeasement and flattery at a particularly volatile time, anything else would have instantly burnt bridges. I very much doubt he’s treating this as a one-way special relationship, I’m sure he’s well aware of what the US is about right now.

I tend to agree with this. I know that, on face value, it looks bad for Starmer (and to some degree Macron before him). But they did the right thing by coming to Washington. Starmer tried, and I give him credit for that. Will it work? Maybe not, and after yesterday probably not. But trying to talk to the U.S. president about such important issues is the right thing to do. Europe can’t just quickly give up on working with the United States and risk crumbling an alliance that was built 8 decades ago. Trying to save what exists is the natural first step.

Having said that, I also agree that the time has come for Europe to become more independent of the United States. We’re not a reliable partner. But this should be done in a careful and smart manner.

 

[Zen86]

Just proves my point really Trump can say and do what he likes and the UK will tow the line.

One clear example or this is Starmer was always concrete about backing Ukraine in the war and there was never any hint of a ceasefire/negotiation any time he spoke about it. As soon as Trump gets elected this changes and he starts to align more with Trump's position of negotiating and making a deal. UK will throw everyone under the bus to side with the US there is no evidence to the contrary.

Do tell us what Starmer should have done differently.

 

[Rams]

I’m sure the Trump administration can expect some fore works today behind the scenes.

 

[moses]

This election was about voting against too. Voting against the evil, bloated orange turd this thread is about. Sometimes you have to vote against. Maybe a candidate more to your tastes will step forward one day. Meanwhile do the right thing FFS. When you have a presidential candidate who surrounds himself with and endorses actual racists and borderline fascists it’s really not difficult to know what you need to do on election day.

Yeah, this is correct although @Pexbo is correct regarding the pitiful state of the electorate. Without a properly functioning press, as in the fourth estate and a subsequently well informed electorate you only have a version of democracy. When you bring in the nature of US elections regarding lobbyists, voting blocks and donations you're in a sort of post democracy capitalist election.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Pav1878]

The truth is that both Biden and Trump had surrounded themselves by or had been influenced by racists. The only difference between the democrats and republicans is that one side will tell you to your face they don’t like you for being of colour, whereas the other side will pretend to be your friend but act against you behind the scenes.

Both sides supported Israel in their genocidal campaign against the Palestinians so neither side have a leg to stand on when it comes to morality.

Basically, human rights advocates were fecked either way.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Fenômeno]

Do tell us what Starmer should have done differently.

Nothing, he behaved exactly as I expect a UK prime minister to behave, tow the line and follow the US.

 

[tenpoless]

Vance was the one who threw fire to spark a heated argument. Both the president and vice president are hot headed.

 

[afrocentricity]

Yep, and if he doesn’t get the minerals with ukraines permission he will make a deal with Russia to get them. He’s already laying the groundwork by saying big US corporates could work from Moscow
He’s all about getting those minerals. He doesn’t give a shit about peace. That’s not his priority

It's a lot to go through for the amount of minerals though.... It's gotta be more than this surely?

 

[Morty_]

The truth is that both Biden and Trump had surrounded themselves by or had been influenced by racists. The only difference between the democrats and republicans is that one side will tell you to your face they don’t like you for being of colour, whereas the other side will pretend to be your friend but act against you behind the scenes.

Both sides supported Israel in their genocidal campaign against the Palestinians so neither side have a leg to stand on when it comes to morality.

Basically, human rights advocates were fecked either way.

Government isn't about morality, everyone knows dems sucks about as much when it comes to Israel Gaza, but believe it or not, Israel Gaza is not all that there is to this world.
I know dems wouldn't tear apart 80 year old alliances out of the blue though, that alone makes them a much better alternative by default.

But, the republicans won, so now we get the worst of both worlds.

 

[Zen86]

Nothing, he behaved exactly as I expect a UK prime minister to behave, toe the line and follow the US.

As opposed to what? Disagree, anger Trump, and deteriorate trans-Atlantic relations even more? That would be stellar politics.

 

[Buster15]

The UK’s importance is as a mediator between the US and Europe. We’re out of the EU and the US is acting out against its allies. The role is the tread the line but we’re not as close to either side as we once were.

Fair point.

 

[Buster15]

As opposed to what? Disagree, anger Trump, and deteriorate trans-Atlantic relations even more? That would be stellar politics.

Exactly that.
It is better that Macron and Starmer (who is far from the idiot some try to make out incidentally) have a good relationship with trump.

 

[Beachryan]

This finger pointing and pseudo moral outrage is getting old, fast.

Get off your high horse and rather ask yourself what went so wrong in the Democratic camp that Harris got dog walked by that orange psychopath in the last elections. "People who didn't vote for [insert your candidate] are stupid" ain't gonna cut it. Unless your Party undergoes a serious introspection, prepare yourself for the next slap in the face in four years. You and the other gatekeepers can then blame whatever minority or group of stupid people who refused to do the "right thing". If the institutions of land of the free are still standing, that is.

As for Europe, while it would reaaaally time to get its act together and finally break its US chains, I wouldn't bet my house on it. The second Trump wave has yet to truly hit our shores and we have our own domestic demons to deal with.

I have and continue to have nothing but contempt for how the DNC failed us. But that blame is for them.

Voters who knew this was coming and chose to do nothing about it must also take the blame. They knew what not voting meant, and chose to do so anyway. That is a personal, individual responsiblity they failed at, and no, I don't forgive them or think they can dodge out of it because the candidate/other party wasn't good enough. This was their choice. They chose Trump.

 

[Buster15]

Pretty much yeah. That said, I would bet my house that Starmer is trying to rebuild ties with the EU as quickly as possible now behind the scenes. Even if he’s toeing the line with Trump publicly for as long as possible.

Not even behind the scenes.
He has made it very clear about that. And the EU has responded positively.
Despite my criticism of Brexit m, we don't have to be in the EU to be a very important member of Europe.
Even more important now I would say.

 

[Sky1981]

Wait. So they come and tell the US in their face they want permission to open "SPY" Network?

Some of these quotes are too absurd. We get desensitized with Russia. 40 years ago the mention of has ties with Russia is enough to sent you to jail. Nowdays it's just casual remark, nobody would even take it seriously

 

[Buster15]

Just proves my point really Trump can say and do what he likes and the UK will tow the line.

One clear example or this is Starmer was always concrete about backing Ukraine in the war and there was never any hint of a ceasefire/negotiation any time he spoke about it. As soon as Trump gets elected this changes and he starts to align more with Trump's position of negotiating and making a deal. UK will throw everyone under the bus to side with the US there is no evidence to the contrary.

Oh yeah.
No evidence.... except that Starmer immediately threw his weight behind President Zelenzkyy right after that terrible meeting in the WH.

It is not about taking sides. It is about threading a fine line between your allies in order to be able to have some influence.

 

[moses]

This finger pointing and pseudo moral outrage is getting old, fast.

So is deciding that other people's morals don't exist.

 

[NLunited]

Regarding those tarrifs.

And let me preface this by stating I'm not exactly an economy buff (I know feck all about it).

Putting tarrifs on foreign goods makes them more expensive to import for American business right? So in the short term it "hurts" Americans and American companies importing stuff. I suppose in the long run it's meant to encourage local production or something, but why is it framed as, "haha, we will make these countries pay more!" while it's the exact opposite?

Am I missing some sort of nuance here?

I see it as a quick way for Trump to pay for his billionaire tax cuts.

It is not a negotiating tool for him, I think, and I‘ll explain why.

He negotiated trade deals with Canada and Mexico in his first term, and immediately broke the deals when he got elected again.

Similarly, the DOGE cuts are about getting rid of oversight and raising money for billionaire tax cuts.

The tariffs don‘t work, the consumers end up paying for them. The farmers were bailed out with taxpayer money during his first term, when they suffered the consequences of the tariffs.

 

[afrocentricity]

Portugal is UK’s oldest bro.
You better not feck us over in favor of Trump otherwise no more debauchery in the Algarve!

feck sake it just gets worse!

 

[JPRouve]

So is deciding that other people's morals don't exist.

You(irish people) stole McMillan, you have no morals.

 

[cafecillos]

Honestly if I hear someone else state 'it's Trump, you have to play the game, compliment and butter him up and pretend to be his deferential buddy......'

Why? What is this shit?

Yep, I'm sick and tired of this shit too. I guess Hitler also needed to be pampered.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

Are you crazy? That's exactly why they voted for him and they're loving every minute of it.

"He's telling it like it is. Get America out of those forever wars started by woke liberals".

"And get us into some good old fashioned AMERICAN wars"

 

[Superden]

trump cant tolerate any kind of challenge in a conversation, and he has no rhetorical skills, which is why he resorts to childish name calling and shouting. European politicians need to get their crap together and start poking the big bear. I reckon we are no more than three or four similar incidents away, on the world stage, before he loses his mind completely and tries to do something that even the republicans around him cant stomach. the fact that he mentioned hunter bidens laptop again and again, just shows how petty and pathetically minded he is.

 

[moses]

You(irish people) stole McMillan, you have no morals.

No, I obviously wasn't talking about the heathen Irish.

 

[Fenômeno]

Oh yeah.
No evidence.... except that Starmer immediately threw his weight behind President Zelenzkyy right after that terrible meeting in the WH.

It is not about taking sides. It is about threading a fine line between your allies in order to be able to have some influence.

Threw his weight by sending a tweet? The proof will be in the pudding let's revisit this next year. The US will negotiate a bad deal for Ukraine and Starmer will appear to publicly begrudenly accept but we all know he will just be following bosses orders.

 

[Pav1878]

Government isn't about morality, everyone knows dems sucks about as much when it comes to Israel Gaza, but believe it or not, Israel Gaza is not all that there is to this world.
I know dems wouldn't tear apart 80 year old alliances out of the blue though, that alone makes them a much better alternative by default.

But, the republicans won, so now we get the worst of both worlds.

I’m not defending Trump, I’m saying they are as bad as each other.

There are more conflicts than Gaza but for me it’s a litmus test for a person’s morality. If the dems support Israel then they are a piece of shit just like the GOP and none of their other stances are going to make up for that.

 

[Morty_]

I’m not defending Trump, I’m saying they are as bad as each other.

There are more conflicts than Gaza but for me it’s a litmus test for a person’s morality. If the dems support Israel then they are a piece of shit just like the GOP and none of their other stances are going to make up for that.

So, single issue-voter then? Suit yourself.

 

[ManUtd1999]

Wait. So they come and tell the US in their face they want permission to open "SPY" Network?

Some of these quotes are too absurd. We get desensitized with Russia. 40 years ago the mention of has ties with Russia is enough to sent you to jail. Nowdays it's just casual remark, nobody would even take it seriously

That’s one result of Trumpism, among many others.

I’m not defending Trump, I’m saying they are as bad as each other.

No, they are not. We are in this mess because in 2016 we made the equivalence between Trump, and Clinton and because this past year we made the equivalence between Trump and the Democrats.

The Democrats are not perfect, and they deserve a lot of blame for what happened in Gaza. But, in 40 DAYS, Trump has dismantled or in the process of dismantling, what we built over 80 years, and what Biden tried to strengthen over 48 MONTHS. No other president, man or woman, white or black, would’ve done as much damage in such a short period of time. No one other than Trump.

(And I know that future Republicans will likely be bad, but that would be partly because Trump won in November, thus emboldening this extremism).

As a country, we f*cked this whole thing up, and we should admit it. But those of you who lectured us for months about morality, you should’ve known the alternative. And we all knew that it would be worse.

Look, C is not a good grade, definitely not one to be proud of. But C is better than F.

 

[RexHamilton]

I’m not defending Trump, I’m saying they are as bad as each other.

There are more conflicts than Gaza but for me it’s a litmus test for a person’s morality. If the dems support Israel then they are a piece of shit just like the GOP and none of their other stances are going to make up for that.

I really don’t get this.

Side A - Awful on an issue I’m passionate about

Side B - Every bit as awful on the issue I’m passionate about and demonstrably more awful on a whole host of other issues.

“Well what choice had we except to not vote”.

It’s literally the lesser of 2 evils.

It’s like if Person A came to you and said they were going to break your leg. And person B comes and says they’re going to break both your legs, your arms and your back. But you get to choose which person inflicts the damage.

And your answer is, “feck it, someone else can choose. My leg is going to be broken anyway.”

 

[ManUtd1999]

Side A - Awful on an issue I’m passionate about

Side B - Every bit as awful on the issue I’m passionate about and demonstrably more awful on a whole host of other issues.

It’s mind boggling, isn’t it?

To rephrase: for these people, 50=0.

And they will insist on that.

(You could put any other number on the left-hand side).