Kyev does not look like it is going to be American vacation any time soon.
The Trump Presidency - Part 2
- Thread starter The Boy
- Start date
Kyev does not look like it is going to be American vacation any time soon.
Probably Hegseth from that list. He'd have some top brass in his ear with legitimate understanding of global power and relations and probably with covert political aid willing to restore order, hopefully. Still a clown but less likely to go full nutter, at least that's my wager, I could be very wrong.
Sometimes you have to choose the lesser of 2 evils, and in the US it was pretty clear to sensible and sane people what that choice was, the US had always supported Israel since the day it was created and no matter the choice in an election that was never going to change
I think not voting for evil is perfectly sensible and sane.
Probably not I but I envisage that they will be made to feel very unwelcome in a lot of countries
Just get a feck trump badge for your backpack and you'll be fine.
What an overwhelmingly depressing and disturbing spectacle that was. I’m shocked, yet not surprised. Times are bleak.
Probably wishful thinking…. Trump will back down, deny everything, offer a hand of friendship to Zelensky. Then again maybe not….
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He, and now the entire GOP, want Zelenksy out. Zelensky is finished in America which means he's basically finished. The EU can talk about this that and the other but if they do really want to make some sort of independent statement -- not just words -- they'll have to bankrupt themselves and their social contracts to do it: a far bigger threat, internal (revolutionary potential), than Russia acting as it does on the Russian borders.
I can see America withdrawing unless Zelensky is basically couped and doing a deal with Russia instead. They want the minerals, not the gratitude of the world for being polite about wanting the minerals. If they are doing what I think, which seems accurate, and that is basically all in economic competition with China (and later India) then it makes sense for them.
For the EU? It cannot double its defense spending as some here want it to. That would be the end of the EU, not some heroic high point. Within a two year period the infrastructure of states would start to collapse. A swing to authoritarianism, already happening (a long trend: think the rise of the "right" in various EU nations), which will fail and a complete shit-show thereafter.
Many people never leave high school and they all wish they were the bully
You're right and I made that comment after reading a few responses on tweets about the Zelensky meeting. Majority of the people responding seems uneducated. The reason why a lot of the rich ones voted for him was to pay less taxes.
Isn't that a good summation of every Trump press conference though? It's not like we open up the conference and out pours the unmitigated truth.
I just mean he's telling you in public more or less what he actually thinks. Yes, perhaps he does that in most conferences but there has been a slight difference between this term and the last in the layout of the Oval office meeting between other representatives. Trump has his cabinet, always there, and then the others (with their people). He generally just says what he said on the campaign trail tailored to whatever nation he's speaking to/about.
One thing, which however unpolite or mad people think this was, how could Zelensky not be briefed in advance? Lindsay Graham, who has trumpeted Ukraine since 2014, said he did brief him not to take the bait. To discuss the things they could agree on however small. Mineral deal of some kind, some form of peace, even if ambiguous, the troops allegedly committed by France and the UK and then the room for negotiation. Press conference over.
Lindsay Graham earlier today completely disowned Zelensky. If Graham did that, and he did, then you can be assured the rest of the people who matter also have.
He went into a meeting with a President who has a grudge against Zelensky more than Ukraine because it was used for the whole Russian thing and that quid pro quo stuff. Also, his campaign was founded upon ending the war and his record of war not breaking out whilst he was in office. You don't have to like Trump at all to understand basic diplomacy and generally handle, the live on television, situation a little better. He did well with the suit comment but when he said that the US would "feel it" he lost his mind. That's basically a threat in Trump land.
I've watched it a few times and Zelensky needed to tone certain things down. If he were a seasoned politician none of this would have happened. As it is, he's not. He expected the same treatment he receives (or has received) in the past or if he didn't he didn't demonstrate any comprehension of it. Of course there was a planned element to it. Trump is trying to manufacture consent for a peace (economic) deal and needs to position himself between two actors rather than entirely with one of them. People say he's entirely with Russia, but I disagree. He's entirely about what he says in this case -- the minerals (for which he needs peace).
He cited that Trump was in office when this or that happened (not Crimea but the skirmishes and shelling between the Ukraine and Russia). This is a faux pas. Politically immature.
He shouldn't have cited Trump's record in the above context. I've witnessed the King of Jordan basically just play the ropes and be deferential and he was arguably in just as fraught a position (the Palestinian plan which is not possible and political suicide for him). But he got through it. Zelensky simply isn't operating at that level of political competency. Maybe it's the war. I don't know but his image is "strong man" (for the war) but it grates when the tide of war fatigue has swept across at least half the nation he has visited (and when you know what the Trump position is).
It was a setup in part but he could have avoided the worst part.
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Trusting anything Graham says is about as sensible as a trusting a turd not to stink, he gives slime a bad name
Nobody would believe it
I've been saying that for years. But the Ukrainian thread disagreed when Graham was saying the things they wanted to hear. There's a naivity among some people there and this is not a hit job but they turn on this or that person (Macron at the start) when one or two things are not exactly what they want to hear ("russian asset"). Then Macron talks about French peacekeepers and he's the latest trend. It's a madness.
All politicians lie. A very simple lesson. They play games. Even the ones you like.
Surely there's an overlap in some bizarre set theory between the number of people who have watched Game of Thrones (or some other similar thing which portrays political cunning, historical or otherwise) and the same people who just disregard all the cunning and self-importance and positioning when it comes to politicians who say things they want to hear.
You're right and I made that comment after reading a few responses on tweets about the Zelensky meeting. Majority of the people responding seems uneducated. The reason why a lot of the rich ones voted for him was to pay less taxes.
I stopped reading and commenting X comment section long time ago, bar a few glance for humor.
Judging things from X comment section is not a good indicator. They have a strange magnet over there
We are at the stage where even if he is exposed as this, it won’t matter.
His supporters won’t care, they’ve clearly shown that they don’t care about what he actually does. They might say he’s doing it to improve relations or something. As long as the supporters continue to worship him, the rest of the GOP won’t do anything. With so much power in his hands, anyone who might actually be dedicated to doing their job won’t be able to do anything either, and it all comes back down to the amount of rabid support that he has.
It might sound like an exaggeration but I don’t think there’s a single bit of information that could come out against Trump that would actually harm him. In that regard he’s reached the level of untouchability that guys he admires like Putin and Kim have reached.
Yeah that US would feel it too line was not smart. Even if true he should have known the rabid dogs that are Trump and Vance would take it poorly. Anything other than fawning praise of the dear leader would be taken as a slight. He should have thrown in some insults to Biden and Harris to get on Trumps good side.
We are orders of magnitude away from rock bottom unfortunately.
He is an asset to Russia full stop. It’s not something that has to be exposed. Anyone with eyes and ears can see that he is massively helping Putins agenda.
Whether there is kompromat is a different question that no longer really matters. Trump is taking the side of a murderous dictator over democracies. I’m much more interested in what Europe does about it, than why it is happening. The US is a lost cause.
They definitely do and I don't have the app. I only venture there when I click on post here.
Why?
Watched the whole 50 mins of it. It's WWE shit.
Lindsay Graham... the same that said that Trump was going to destroy the republican party?
So, Zelensky needed to tone the things down? What about the ones who acted as bullies while hosting a President whose country is under attack?
Are you crazy? That's exactly why they voted for him and they're loving every minute of it.
"He's telling it like it is. Get America out of those forever wars started by woke liberals".
Watching the full 50min clip, it's odd but it felt like US and Ukraine weren't 100% on the same page even though there was an agreement to be signed. Trump kept focusing on how signing the deal was the most imp thing while dodging questions on how security would be ensured while Zelensky kept saying ceasefire isn't enough when Russia can't be relied upon to hold their end of a deal without military deterrence.
Bizarre all around and went to absolute shit when Vance decided to chime in.
Bizarre all around and went to absolute shit when Vance decided to chime in.
The latest Gallup poll on the matter showed that only 33% of Democrats and 48% of independents held a favorable view of Israel. If a party tells voters their opinions don't matter but still expects their votes, it doesn't usually turn out well.
This live "meeting" was a blatant set-up, best would've been to avoid it altogether, but then again this would've used against Zelenskyy. However going confrontational and fact checking this revolting manchild and his snake of a VP played right into their hands and was the best way to get absolutely nothing.
I've never seen such bad faith and dishonesty coming out so openly, and I still can't believe what I just watched.
This administration is to plunge the US into the abyss, and the international landscape is going to be very different in four years.
I've never seen such bad faith and dishonesty coming out so openly, and I still can't believe what I just watched.
This administration is to plunge the US into the abyss, and the international landscape is going to be very different in four years.
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One thing is for sure. If Trump were in charge in the late 30s, Poland would've never started WW2.
Yeah, Zelenskyy seemed spectacularly ill-prepared and badly miscalculated, unfortunately. Surprised he/they could misjudge the occasion so severely.
Yes that is very fair.
Trump and his henchman Vance might think that the US can operate in a vacuum.
However, they are risking a wave of bad feeling against the US across the world.
And as has been pointed out, President Zelenzkyy was trying to talk against these 2 bullies in his 3rd language.
Starmer and Macron will now have to take the lead and mediate between Ukraine and the US to try and find a way forward.
All of this while Putin must be creaming himself.
Russia on its own yes, Russia with US backing, whether overt or not? I’m not so sure.
Might have been a bit overdramatic I guess. Was so angry last night and a bit pissed. Not generally a good combo!
Ugh, managed to accidentally break my news-avoidance with this last night. What a shameful, disgraceful denigration of the office and of the US's standing. China and Russia should be pretty damn happy today. Few quick thoughts:
1. To all the American liberals and pro-democracy voters who stayed home last fall, f*ck each and every one of you. All 15m of you who couldn't be bothered to get out and show the world that America isn't represented by Donald J Trump and his lackeys. F*ck you. This is on you. Not him. You had the opportunity to avoid this and you turned your holier-than-thou noses up because you weren't energised enough, or fearful enough of what he'd be like, despite every bloody thing on Earth showing you. This is what you were too stupid to vote against. You own it. I'm sorry Harris or literally any one wasn't far enough down your particular issue-hole but this was the alternative, and you knew that, and you did nothing.
2. For the next 4 years world leaders need to not rely on any sense of morals, history or even common decency. If you want something or need something from America, go watch the mob films and rehearse as if you were going to see the Don. Because that's what America is now. Hopefully for only 4 more years. Trump is a mob boss, driven by greed, expecting deference, worship and most importantly quid pro quo in every dealing. He couldn't be any clearer. Ukraine doesn't have cards, I don't give a flying f*ck why, but I have cards, you want cards, you come to me, you better grovel. The GOP will do nothing. Marco 'world order' Rubio can't even see above the top of the damn desk. There's an entire infrastructure in place to ensure whatever dear leader decides today will be paraded as strong, correct and the bestest decision by tomorrow. Do not go high, there is no high with Trump. Grit your teeth and hope things change in 4 years time, or even better, in 2.
3. This is a real, potentially pivotal opportunity for Europe and other sensible countries to unite, and pull their finger out. Stop relying on the US. The populace is too stupid, fat and rich to be relied upon in the future. Elections will swing, but there's no guarantee we won't actually have another Trump as President in the next 3 cycles. Or this one. You can't rely on us. You have to ramp up military spending, your own information warfare systems and so forth.
4.My only hope is that America needed this. It needs to feel the pain it had already forgotten from the first Trump Presidency. It needs to break down the walls of congitive dissonance and willful ignorance that have been put up around the GOP. It needs to feel embarassed, shameful, fearful and resentful every day of this idiot's term. And it needs to vote accordingly in 2 years, and in every other election.
1. To all the American liberals and pro-democracy voters who stayed home last fall, f*ck each and every one of you. All 15m of you who couldn't be bothered to get out and show the world that America isn't represented by Donald J Trump and his lackeys. F*ck you. This is on you. Not him. You had the opportunity to avoid this and you turned your holier-than-thou noses up because you weren't energised enough, or fearful enough of what he'd be like, despite every bloody thing on Earth showing you. This is what you were too stupid to vote against. You own it. I'm sorry Harris or literally any one wasn't far enough down your particular issue-hole but this was the alternative, and you knew that, and you did nothing.
2. For the next 4 years world leaders need to not rely on any sense of morals, history or even common decency. If you want something or need something from America, go watch the mob films and rehearse as if you were going to see the Don. Because that's what America is now. Hopefully for only 4 more years. Trump is a mob boss, driven by greed, expecting deference, worship and most importantly quid pro quo in every dealing. He couldn't be any clearer. Ukraine doesn't have cards, I don't give a flying f*ck why, but I have cards, you want cards, you come to me, you better grovel. The GOP will do nothing. Marco 'world order' Rubio can't even see above the top of the damn desk. There's an entire infrastructure in place to ensure whatever dear leader decides today will be paraded as strong, correct and the bestest decision by tomorrow. Do not go high, there is no high with Trump. Grit your teeth and hope things change in 4 years time, or even better, in 2.
3. This is a real, potentially pivotal opportunity for Europe and other sensible countries to unite, and pull their finger out. Stop relying on the US. The populace is too stupid, fat and rich to be relied upon in the future. Elections will swing, but there's no guarantee we won't actually have another Trump as President in the next 3 cycles. Or this one. You can't rely on us. You have to ramp up military spending, your own information warfare systems and so forth.
4.My only hope is that America needed this. It needs to feel the pain it had already forgotten from the first Trump Presidency. It needs to break down the walls of congitive dissonance and willful ignorance that have been put up around the GOP. It needs to feel embarassed, shameful, fearful and resentful every day of this idiot's term. And it needs to vote accordingly in 2 years, and in every other election.
I don’t think there was ever a deal to be signed. The US basically want a signed agreement to raid Ukraines resources while letting Russia carry on. It’s pretty disgusting stuff to be honest. This had nothing to do with stopping war, its expansionism in the same vein as Canada, Greenland etc.
Uh oh, you’re going to make the “and magically a third person wins” brigade big mad.
Preach.
Let's not forget the culpability of a DNC leadership forgoing a primary in order to submit a walking stiff as the last best hope for democracy. Your duty, America, was to vote for yet another round of corporate bought milquetoast bullshit. True, but also, feck you.