The Trump Presidency | Biden Inaugurated

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If Trump gets a second term, then that means that there are enough Americans who agree with his 'principles' to vote for him. Moreso than were able to vote against him (ignoring things like voter suppression and gerrymandering - which whilst a factor, shouldnt be make-or-break in the grand scheme of things). This means that democratically, that is the 'will of the people' - regardless of how disgusting it may be.

In this scenario I dont see any option for the trumpers to coexist peacefully with the rest of the Americans. Certainly not for 4 years, and certainly not when they are emboldened by Trump's re-election. I really dont see how that ends other than some sort of mass exodus/emigration, or a full on civil war to try to divide the country up between the two 'factions'.
 
Walrus said:
If Trump gets a second term, then that means that there are enough Americans who agree with his 'principles' to vote for him. Moreso than were able to vote against him (ignoring things like voter suppression and gerrymandering - which whilst a factor, shouldnt be make-or-break in the grand scheme of things). This means that democratically, that is the 'will of the people' - regardless of how disgusting it may be.

In this scenario I dont see any option for the trumpers to coexist peacefully with the rest of the Americans. Certainly not for 4 years, and certainly not when they are emboldened by Trump's re-election. I really dont see how that ends other than some sort of mass exodus/emigration, or a full on civil war to try to divide the country up between the two 'factions'.
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There are Senate, House, Gubernatorial, and Mayoral elections as well in November. Voter suppression and gerrymandering are chronic issues and have been happening for decades.

Still think that Election Day should be a federal holiday and those that have to work be allowed to mail in ballots or get paid time and half/double.
 
edcunited1878 said:
There are Senate, House, Gubernatorial, and Mayoral elections as well in November. Voter suppression and gerrymandering are chronic issues and have been happening for decades.

Still think that Election Day should be a federal holiday and those that have to work be allowed to mail in ballots or get paid time and half/double.
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Honestly, anyone living in the US should by now understand the importance of the November election(s). At this point, I dont think there are any excuses for anyone to not vote, if they want to.
Apologies if that sounds a little flippant, I understand that voter suppression is real, but surely it cant go so far as just completely blocking people from voting?
 
edcunited1878 said:
There are Senate, House, Gubernatorial, and Mayoral elections as well in November. Voter suppression and gerrymandering are chronic issues and have been happening for decades.

Still think that Election Day should be a federal holiday and those that have to work be allowed to mail in ballots or get paid time and half/double.
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Or just make it on Sunday, like in most normal countries.
 
JMack1234 said:
Common sense sadly isn't very common.

Look at the protest in London, hardly any social distancing happening there.
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You know what, the protesters I kinda get. I don’t agree with not wearing masks in crowds like that but I kinda get where they’re coming from.

these WH staff though. They’re in a position of responsibility and in front of the cameras. You think some of them would set an example
 
Walrus said:
Honestly, anyone living in the US should by now understand the importance of the November election(s). At this point, I dont think there are any excuses for anyone to not vote, if they want to.
Apologies if that sounds a little flippant, I understand that voter suppression is real, but surely it cant go so far as just completely blocking people from voting?
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Guess what ....

.... That's right, you guessed it, he's done more for black people than (almost) any other President.
 
Rado_N said:
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Good watch, thanks, I always like John Oliver.
As I said, I agree that voter suppression is a problem. I just think that Trump has been in office nearly 4 years now and it is pretty plain to see what he is up to. Anyone should be able to get an ID, or whatever is required, in 4 years, so they can vote.

In the 2016 election I would say fair enough, but now? You have had 4 years of Trump already. I feel like that is ample time to make absolutely sure you will be able to vote next time round.

This is not a defence of voter suppression or the republicans.
 
SirAF said:
That's not an excuse in November when Trump is on the ballot for a second term. Give him another four years and there might not be much left to salvage.
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Of course. I would vote for a pint glass of diarrhoea over Trump if I was American. I'm just saying I understand the apathy of the public over the years. Low voter turnout isn't something that started in the 2016 elections. It's been going on for decades, with far more likeable candidates than what they've had recently on the ballot.
 
matherto said:
I do to, in part because I can't stand the cnut and in part because there's no way he reigns himself in and it might get him impeached again.
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Agreed. I would actually love for Trump to just lose his "cool" (not that he has much to begin with) and blurt out something really bad. Like the n-word. Seeing the facade completely fall and the truth (that we all knew anyway) get exposed to the world. Not even the famed republican mental gymnastics would be able to help him.
 
Walrus said:
Good watch, thanks, I always like John Oliver.
As I said, I agree that voter suppression is a problem. I just think that Trump has been in office nearly 4 years now and it is pretty plain to see what he is up to. Anyone should be able to get an ID, or whatever is required, in 4 years, so they can vote.

In the 2016 election I would say fair enough, but now? You have had 4 years of Trump already. I feel like that is ample time to make absolutely sure you will be able to vote next time round.

This is not a defence of voter suppression or the republicans.
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But there’s so many places where obtaining a photo ID is simply impossible for people already struggling to get by, because it’s been deliberately made that way by closing offices and further disenfranchising minorities in particular.

That’s why voter ID laws exist; voter suppression.
 
Walrus said:
If Trump gets a second term, then that means that there are enough Americans who agree with his 'principles' to vote for him. Moreso than were able to vote against him (ignoring things like voter suppression and gerrymandering - which whilst a factor, shouldnt be make-or-break in the grand scheme of things). This means that democratically, that is the 'will of the people' - regardless of how disgusting it may be.

In this scenario I dont see any option for the trumpers to coexist peacefully with the rest of the Americans. Certainly not for 4 years, and certainly not when they are emboldened by Trump's re-election. I really dont see how that ends other than some sort of mass exodus/emigration, or a full on civil war to try to divide the country up between the two 'factions'.
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I think celebrities threatened to leave if Trump got elected but I doubt they did or they still spend most of their time in America anyway. Truth is, those who would want to leave, simply can't due to lack of money and or opportunities abroad. What would the sides even look like in a civil war? Trump loonies v everyone else?
 
If Trump gets out of this mess without any real problems, he'll feel even more untouchable and that will have consequences for all of us I think.
 
Rado_N said:
But there’s so many places where obtaining a photo ID is simply impossible for people already struggling to get by, because it’s been deliberately made that way by closing offices and further disenfranchising minorities in particular.

That’s why voter ID laws exist; voter suppression.
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1) How far can that be? Really?

2) Can you vote in any other country without a photo ID?
 
Rado_N said:
But there’s so many places where obtaining a photo ID is simply impossible for people already struggling to get by, because it’s been deliberately made that way by closing offices and further disenfranchising minorities in particular.

That’s why voter ID laws exist; voter suppression.
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Im not disagreeing with you, I just feel like 4 years is long enough for the vast, vast, vast majority of people to be able to get their ID or whatever. There may be some edge cases where they have tried for 4 years and still not been able to do it - that utterly sucks and is another mark against the republicans. But broadly speaking, I dont think there should be any excuses for people failing to vote in November.
 
Revan said:
1) How far can that be? Really?

2) Can you vote in any other country without a photo ID?
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1) watch the video I posted above, if I remember correctly he covers that point specifically and it’s ridiculous.

2) you don’t need ID to vote in the UK.
 
Revan said:
1) How far can that be? Really?

2) Can you vote in any other country without a photo ID?
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In the UK, once you've registered to vote - by returning a form (that is automatically posted to you every year) to your local council or going on their website, all for zero cost to yourself - you simply turn up at an assigned place within walking distance of your home. They ask for your address, you go into the voting booth and fill in your ballot. Done. No stupid rules, no ID required, it's made as easy as possible.
 
Rado_N said:
1) watch the video I posted above, if I remember correctly he covers that point specifically and it’s ridiculous.

2) you don’t need ID to vote in the UK.
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1) But surely those are very extreme cases, right?

2) Very interesting, I had no idea about that.

Now just being curious, how easy/hard is to cheat in such a system? I am not American (from Kosovo), but needed every time a photo ID to vote (and when it was by mail cause now I live elsewhere, I had to print my ID in another mail where the vote was put, so I both ensure my voting identity, but not the anonymization of the vote).
 
Maagge said:
Denmark.
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Yep, seems in UK too. I guess I was wrong, probably cause it was unfamiliar to me to vote without an ID.

I wonder now, what stops someone (morale aside) from voting for his neighbor for example?
 
Revan said:
1) But surely those are very extreme cases, right?

2) Very interesting, I had no idea about that.

Now just being curious, how easy/hard is to cheat in such a system? I am not American (from Kosovo), but needed every time a photo ID to vote (and when it was by mail cause now I live elsewhere, I had to print my ID in another mail where the vote was put, so I both ensure my voting identity, but not the anonymization of the vote).
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There's a report here about alleged electoral fraud in the UK including descriptions of individual cases. I guess it is possible to cheat if you know someone's name and address and go into their local polling station, but you would have to rely on the person not voting. Mail ballots you would have to steal the person's ballot and forge their signature. Genuine cases of fraud are slim and don't end up affecting the results.
 
Revan said:
1) But surely those are very extreme cases, right?

2) Very interesting, I had no idea about that.

Now just being curious, how easy/hard is to cheat in such a system? I am not American (from Kosovo), but needed every time a photo ID to vote (and when it was by mail cause now I live elsewhere, I had to print my ID in another mail where the vote was put, so I both ensure my voting identity, but not the anonymization of the vote).
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Tie it in with gerrymandering and the other suppression techniques and it’s plenty effective.

There’s no evidence of electoral fraud being any kind of issue in the UK.
 
Damien said:
There's a report here about alleged electoral fraud in the UK including descriptions of individual cases. I guess it is possible to cheat if you know someone's name and address and go into their local polling station, but you would have to rely on the person not voting. Mail ballots you would have to steal the person's ballot and forge their signature. Genuine cases of fraud are slim and don't end up affecting the results.
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Exactly. There's not much to be gained from it, a handful of votes at best. I read an article that described voter ID laws as 'a solution in search of a problem'.
 
Damien said:
There's a report here about alleged electoral fraud in the UK including descriptions of individual cases. I guess it is possible to cheat if you know someone's name and address and go into their local polling station, but you would have to rely on the person not voting. Mail ballots you would have to steal the person's ballot and forge their signature. Genuine cases of fraud are slim and don't end up affecting the results.
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Cool, thanks! Makes sense.
Rado_N said:
Tie it in with gerrymandering and the other suppression techniques and it’s plenty effective.

There’s no evidence of electoral fraud being any kind of issue in the UK.
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I didn't say that it was, just that was curious about the mechanisms to prevent it. Also, it seems that the UK and Denmark are more like an outlier, the likes of Italy, Germany, France, Norway, Sweden, etc seem to require an ID. Of course, in Europe, everyone has an ID so that ain't a problem.
 
Revan said:
Yep, seems in UK too. I guess I was wrong, probably cause it was unfamiliar to me to vote without an ID.

I wonder now, what stops someone (morale aside) from voting for his neighbor for example?
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In Denmark you automatically get your polling card in the mail if you're over 18 and a Danish national. They use your social security number to send it out.
Then you go to the polling station and they'll ask you your social security number, I think, and you'll hand them the polling card. Then you vote.

I think cheating is technically possible but it'd be very little reward for a fair bit of effort and risk.
 
decorativeed said:
I thought this was an interesting read on the history of voter suppression: https://veganwarriorprincessesattack.com/114-voting-united-states-history-voting-2016-election/
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I know the things about the voting supression, and ex-felons not being able to vote etc. Just asked, realistically, how hard is to vote if you want to do so? I am not minimising the problem, but how far you need to go to do it? For example, when I went for SSN, I had to go like 15 minute by car (other municipality). Not convenient, but relatively easy. Is voting harder than that?
 
Revan said:
Cool, thanks! Makes sense.

I didn't say that it was, just that was curious about the mechanisms to prevent it. Also, it seems that the UK and Denmark are more like an outlier, the likes of Italy, Germany, France, Norway, Sweden, etc seem to require an ID. Of course, in Europe, everyone has an ID so that ain't a problem.
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Yea sorry I didn’t mean that to sound argumentative, just saying it’s been looking into and there was no evidence found to support any concerns about it.

And yes, I’d have no issue with the premise of voter ID requirements if getting a photo ID was a simple process for absolutely everybody.

Kinsella said:
You do in NI.
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Interesting, thanks for pointing that out.
 
Revan said:
Cool, thanks! Makes sense.

I didn't say that it was, just that was curious about the mechanisms to prevent it. Also, it seems that the UK and Denmark are more like an outlier, the likes of Italy, Germany, France, Norway, Sweden, etc seem to require an ID. Of course, in Europe, everyone has an ID so that ain't a problem.
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Yeah, just to be clear: In Denmark you need an ID, not a photo ID. However, you get it automatically from your birth if you're a Danish national and you don't actually have to show it at the polling station. There's no registration to vote, if you're Danish you're registered, so to speak.
 
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