The Spurs thread | 2016-2017 season | Serious thread - wummers/derailers will be threadbanned

Will Spurs finish in top 4 in the upcoming season?

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acnumber9 said:
European football doesn't matter then? Is it any wonder some Spurs fans get ridiculed in here?
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Since they both joined the PL Alli has scored and assisted more in the PL than Martial has in the PL and European competition combined.

I hope that's better for you.

Anyway I wasn't talking about Martial or European football. I was just stating a fact that Alli has scored more goals over the last 18 months in Europes top 5 leagues than any player under 23.
 
GlastonSpur said:
This perspective illustrates the key reason why Spurs have finished above United for two of the last three seasons, and look on course to do so again.

On the one side we have the "galactico" big money approach and attitude (as if United were up there with the likes of Barca, RM, Bayern Munich etc.) and a collection of ego-centric players ... of which Mourinho is the perfect reflection.

One the other side we have a team who play for each other, who fit together well, with no big egos, and have tremendous team spirit ... again of which Pochettino is the perfect reflection.
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Kind of missed my point to make an entirely different one but no matter. The crux of the point I was making is that any player who has to play in United's first eleven is under a different level of pressure to playing for the likes of Spurs.

Add to that the pressure of being the worlds most expensive player and you can see that the expectation and scrutiny placed on Pogba's shoulders is entirely different to the pressure on Alli or Kane, or for that matter Spurs' most expensive signings.

The two clubs are on a different level of expectation and profile.

If, say, Schneiderlin were to move to Spurs I'd expect him to perform better than he has for United because the pressure of playing for United has been too much for him. At Spurs, Everton or back at Southampton however I'm sure he'd thrive, and that has little to do with who the manager is at the time.
 
Question to Spurs fans - what would your combined United - Spurs 11?

Also - how do you feel this Spurs team compares to the side that had King, Woodgate, Modric, Bale, VdV etc. I feel that was a much better side than the current but the current premier league standard is much lower than it was then.
 
DeGea
Valencia Alderweirald Vertonghen Rose
Carrick Wanyama
Mikhy Pogba Alli
Ibrahimovic

A draw on outfield players. Players unlucky to miss out: Erikson, Jones, Herrera, Walker and Lloris. No offence to Kane but with Ibrahimovic on the pitch there would be actual football played as well as goals.
 
djdhrubs said:
Kind of missed my point to make an entirely different one but no matter. The crux of the point I was making is that any player who has to play in United's first eleven is under a different level of pressure to playing for the likes of Spurs.

Add to that the pressure of being the worlds most expensive player and you can see that the expectation and scrutiny placed on Pogba's shoulders is entirely different to the pressure on Alli or Kane, or for that matter Spurs' most expensive signings.

The two clubs are on a different level of expectation and profile.

If, say, Schneiderlin were to move to Spurs I'd expect him to perform better than he has for United because the pressure of playing for United has been too much for him. At Spurs, Everton or back at Southampton however I'm sure he'd thrive, and that has little to do with who the manager is at the time.
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I think that's nonsense. It's both another form of misplaced elitism and simply another excuse to go along with "bad luck", "bad officiating" and other excuses that some United fans tend to fall back on these days.

What about the pressure of playing for a team that's threatened with relegation and possibly your career down the tubes if that happens? Or the pressure of playing against teams - and trying to get results - that have hundreds of millions to splash out every year if they want? These are not different levels of pressure, they are simply different kinds of pressure.

Every Spurs player is under every bit as much pressure to perform well as any United player.
 
SirHenryPercy said:
Since they both joined the PL Alli has scored and assisted more in the PL than Martial has in the PL and European competition combined.

I hope that's better for you.

Anyway I wasn't talking about Martial or European football. I was just stating a fact that Alli has scored more goals over the last 18 months in Europes top 5 leagues than any player under 23.
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You're ignoring some games because it suits your little stat. Ignoring certain games makes it laughable. Maybe Alli can only cut it in England. Martial has five times as many goals in European competition.
 
acnumber9 said:
You're ignoring some games because it suits your little stat. Ignoring certain games makes it laughable. Maybe Alli can only cut it in England. Martial has five times as many goals in European competition.
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I'm not interested in Martial, I don't care what he does or who he does it against, hence why I wasn't talking about him.

I just made a statement of fact, that over the last 18 months Alli has scored more goals in Europe's top 5 leagues than any other player aged under 23.

I'm not sure why that irks you so or why you want to rumble on about Martial, but as it stands today it won't change the numbers.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Rose was part of our academy for a while and joined us aged 16 ... yet Spurs didn't bring him through into becoming perhaps the best LB in the Prem? :lol:
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Rose was signed when he was 17, year older than Ronaldo, Rooney, Shaw when they joined ManUtd.
 
acnumber9 said:
You're ignoring some games because it suits your little stat. Ignoring certain games makes it laughable. Maybe Alli can only cut it in England. Martial has five times as many goals in European competition.
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I think it's not a reliable thing to count as European matches pit teams against opposition that are incongruous. A strong group, a tough early draw, etc. two teams won't be up against the same level of competition. At least the league shows what a player has done against the exact same competition.

That all said it's a boring argument and this thread has once again become a tedious mess. Same regular characters again.
 
Dumbstar said:
DeGea
Valencia Alderweirald Vertonghen Rose
Carrick Wanyama
Mikhy Pogba Alli
Ibrahimovic

A draw on outfield players. Players unlucky to miss out: Erikson, Jones, Herrera, Walker and Lloris. No offence to Kane but with Ibrahimovic on the pitch there would be actual football played as well as goals.
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Martial & Mata too in my opinion.
 
GlastonSpur said:
I think that's nonsense. It's both another form of misplaced elitism and simply another excuse to go along with "bad luck", "bad officiating" and other excuses that some United fans tend to fall back on these days.

What about the pressure of playing for a team that's threatened with relegation and possibly your career down the tubes if that happens? Or the pressure of playing against teams - and trying to get results - that have hundreds of millions to splash out every year if they want? These are not different levels of pressure, they are simply different kinds of pressure.

Every Spurs player is under every bit as much pressure to perform well as any United player.
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That last line I fundamentally disagree with. Yes there are different kinds of pressure, but also different levels.

A player whose team is threatened with relegation won't see his career go down the pan, because if he's of any quality he'll know he can hop clubs and get a nice pay rise. Not a great example. As for the pressure of playing against teams with millions to spend, I'd argue there isn't much. Not much is expected of you, do you can go out and play with a certain freedom. Not a good example of pressure at all. In fact you often hear the phrase 'they can go out and play... There's no pressure on them' in exactly such circumstances.

The pressure there is almost wholly on the side with millions to spend. That's the pressure that comes with decades of historical trophy winning success, a massive global fan base, and millions to spend and therefore an expectation of success. The pressure of playing for spurs pales in comparison.

I'm talking in general terms of course, because there will be the odd time when a spurs player will be under lots of pressure eg in a big derby match or involved in the run in of a title chase. But generally the pressure of being a Manchester United player is a totally different animal to that of being a spurs player. It's something many good players haven't been able to cope with, and many more will wilt under that pressure in the future.
 
GlastonSpur said:
I think that's nonsense. It's both another form of misplaced elitism and simply another excuse to go along with "bad luck", "bad officiating" and other excuses that some United fans tend to fall back on these days.

What about the pressure of playing for a team that's threatened with relegation and possibly your career down the tubes if that happens? Or the pressure of playing against teams - and trying to get results - that have hundreds of millions to splash out every year if they want? These are not different levels of pressure, they are simply different kinds of pressure.

Every Spurs player is under every bit as much pressure to perform well as any United player.
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All pressures are equal but some pressures are more equal than others.

Is it harder to be the president of the United States with the weight of world's expectation on your shoulders or the president of Malawi with your population threatened by famine? Can a person who thrives as president of Malawi handle the white house?

Different kinds of pressures doesn't mean they are equal.
 
Dumbstar said:
DeGea
Valencia Alderweirald Vertonghen Rose
Carrick Wanyama
Mikhy Pogba Alli
Ibrahimovic

A draw on outfield players. Players unlucky to miss out: Erikson, Jones, Herrera, Walker and Lloris. No offence to Kane but with Ibrahimovic on the pitch there would be actual football played as well as goals.
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Agree mostly with this.

I don't rate Wanyama that much, so I think that I would have gone with Herrera or Dembele instead of him.
Valencia over Walker? I think it is very close between them and it is actually more a matter of preference than real difference over their quality.
Alli is excellent, but can he play left wing? Also, despite his very nice product, still think that Erikson is the better and more important player.
 
roonster09 said:
Rose was signed when he was 17, year older than Ronaldo, Rooney, Shaw when they joined ManUtd.
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So what? He was still a Spurs academy player for a while ... and he was still developed by Spurs into perhaps the best LB in the Prem.
 
GlastonSpur said:
So what? He was still a Spurs academy player for a while ... and he was still developed by Spurs into perhaps the best LB in the Prem.
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You making up numbers to suit your argument as always.
 
djdhrubs said:
... The pressure there is almost wholly on the side with millions to spend. That's the pressure that comes with decades of historical trophy winning success, a massive global fan base, and millions to spend and therefore an expectation of success. The pressure of playing for spurs pales in comparison. ...
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I see. So every United player starts with an inbuilt disadvantage - the extra pressure they are under - compared to every Spurs player.

We can add this to list of inventive excuses that United fans have come up with to explain away and excuse the club's decline over the last 3 years or so. Not only has the team suffered from bad luck and bad officiating, but the poor darlings have also wilted under the kind of pressure apparently not faced by most other clubs.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Ronaldo was 18 when he signed for United ... and Shaw was nearly 19.
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I meant year older than Rose when they signed for ManUtd. Shaw was 18 and it is what something you call it as a "Fact"

GlastonSpur said:
What number have I made up?
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Rose' age, Dele Alli goals, including U21s, U19 goals for Kane to support the argument. It's all laughable.
 
GlastonSpur said:
So what? He was still a Spurs academy player for a while ... and he was still developed by Spurs into perhaps the best LB in the Prem.
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Rose isn't a Spurs academy player, he is a Leeds one.

If you're not at the academy for a few years before you're 16 don't think you should count as an academy product at all.
 
Rose isn't a Spurs academy product but he isn't a top player anyway.
 
Righteous Steps said:
Rose isn't a Spurs academy player, he is a Leeds one.

If you're not at the academy for a few years before you're 16 don't think you should count as an academy product at all.
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What if you have joined at 16 like TFM?

Rafael and Fabio joined at 18 and spent time in the academy before making the first team.

Perhaps we should separate academy players (Welbeck, Rashford, Evans) from academy graduates (TFM, the twins)
 
I don't think Spurs are very much 'on course to finish above United'. 3 points ahead but bear in mind how unlucky/poor United were before December, it's a meaningless gap at this point. Still, at United we should not be discussing the possibility of finishing ahead of Tottenham, the sole fact that they're out competitors for something in the league at the moment means that we've done something wrong.
 
Boycott said:
What if you have joined at 16 like TFM?

Rafael and Fabio joined at 18 and spent time in the academy before making the first team.

Perhaps we should separate academy players (Welbeck, Rashford, Evans) from academy graduates (TFM, the twins)
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I don't think that Da Silva twins can be considered as academy players, same for TFM.

Pogba, Januzaj and Pereira probably yes though. They came here when they were 15-16 and spent a lot of time in the academy playing in under 18 categories and then for the reserves.
 
Sarni said:
I don't think Spurs are very much 'on course to finish above United'. 3 points ahead but bear in mind how unlucky/poor United were before December, it's a meaningless gap at this point. Still, at United we should not be discussing the possibility of finishing ahead of Tottenham, the sole fact that they're out competitors for something in the league at the moment means that we've done something wrong.
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Nail on the head mate
 
Dumbstar said:
DeGea
Valencia Alderweirald Vertonghen Rose
Carrick Wanyama
Mikhy Pogba Alli
Ibrahimovic

A draw on outfield players. Players unlucky to miss out: Erikson, Jones, Herrera, Walker and Lloris. No offence to Kane but with Ibrahimovic on the pitch there would be actual football played as well as goals.
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Has Vertonghen been that impressive the last couple of seasons? Alderweirald has been impressive but I would class Vertonghen in the good/average category. Based on this year I'd have Jones in there instead of him. Bailly too, if he returns and maintains his previous high level.

I suppose Herrera and Wanyama is a matter of opinion, as both have been equally impressive this season. I do think Herrera offers more on the ball though so not sure I'd have/need a destroyer in Wanyama beside Carrick.

I'm trying to shoehorn Alli in also. Does he even suit a CM role? He's playing more as a second striker recently.

------------ De Gea
Valencia Alderweirald Jones Rose
--------------Carrick
----------Alli ----- Pogba
Mkhitaryan -------------- Martial
------------ Ibrahimovic
 
IrishRedDevil said:
Has Vertonghen been that impressive the last couple of seasons? Alderweirald has been impressive but I would class Vertonghen in the good/average category. Based on this year I'd have Jones in there instead of him. Bailly too, if he returns and maintains his previous high level.

I suppose Herrera and Wanyama is a matter of opinion, as both have been equally impressive this season. I do think Herrera offers more on the ball though so not sure I'd have/need a destroyer in Wanyama beside Carrick.

I'm trying to shoehorn Alli in also. Does he even suit a CM role? He's playing more as a second striker recently.

------------ De Gea
Valencia Alderweirald Jones Rose
--------------Carrick
----------Alli ----- Pogba
Mkhitaryan -------------- Martial
------------ Ibrahimovic
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Jones ahead of Vertonghen? fecking ell... :lol:
 
RedSky said:
Jones ahead of Vertonghen? fecking ell... :lol:
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Based on this season Jones has been playing very well so it's hardly a laughable inclusion, which it would have been previously. I did ask the question above has Vertonghen been that good in recent seasons? I also said that Bailly would replace both and play alongside Alderweirald.
 
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IrishRedDevil said:
Based on this season Jones has been playing very well so it's hardly a laughable inclusive, which it would have been previously. I did ask the question above has Vertonghen been that good in recent seasons? I also said that Bailly would replace both and play alongside Alderweirald.
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Well it is laughable. You're saying a fella who has just started to play regularly for us is better than the best CB partnership in the League (for the last 2 seasons). Has it crossed your mind that Jones might simply be having a purple patch? One player has shown consistency over the last 2 seasons, the other has shown consistency over 8/9 games. I remember not so long ago everyone was claiming Smalling was the best CB in the Premier League and now look at him. You've not even mentioned him.

15/16 & 16/17 (PL only)

Vertonghen
4305 minutes
48 apps
48 starts
17 clean sheets
42 goals conceded

Jones
1284 minutes
19 apps
15 starts
5 clean sheets
12 goals conceded

Cmon, the sensible choice is always going to be Vertonghen. Jones might well come good but so far it's way too early to include him in a team like that, for all we know he might get an injury again and breakdown for the next 3/4 months like he has done for pretty much his entire United career so far (let's hope not).
 
Sweech said:
I think it's not a reliable thing to count as European matches pit teams against opposition that are incongruous. A strong group, a tough early draw, etc. two teams won't be up against the same level of competition. At least the league shows what a player has done against the exact same competition.

That all said it's a boring argument and this thread has once again become a tedious mess. Same regular characters again.
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It doesn't do that at all though. Because the young players in Spain aren't playing against the same teams that Alli is. Ultimately all it's doing is picking some of the games he's played and saying he's the most productive. You can't do that and expect to be taken seriously.
 
SirHenryPercy said:
I'm not interested in Martial, I don't care what he does or who he does it against, hence why I wasn't talking about him.

I just made a statement of fact, that over the last 18 months Alli has scored more goals in Europe's top 5 leagues than any other player aged under 23.

I'm not sure why that irks you so or why you want to rumble on about Martial, but as it stands today it won't change the numbers.
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He's a player under 23. He's just one example of a player I knew was more productive when we actually look at all the games played rather than just the ones that suit.
 
GlastonSpur said:
I see. So every United player starts with an inbuilt disadvantage - the extra pressure they are under - compared to every Spurs player.

We can add this to list of inventive excuses that United fans have come up with to explain away and excuse the club's decline over the last 3 years or so. Not only has the team suffered from bad luck and bad officiating, but the poor darlings have also wilted under the kind of pressure apparently not faced by most other clubs.
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It's not necessarily a disadvantage. It may inspire some players. It's just something every United player has to deal with. Some can deal with it, some can't. Cantona pitched up and rose to the challenge. He immediately started playing at a higher level than he had done at Leeds. It can easily go the other way. But you do need that strength of character to make it.

It's the same for any player joining any mammoth superclub like Real Madrid, Barca, Bayern, hell even Liverpool. There's a different weight of expectation on your shoulders to other clubs.

I don't think I'm writing anything controversial here. Look at it from a different angle if you're having trouble wrapping your head around it. Would a professional footballer joining Wycombe Wanderers be under the same set of pressures/ expectations/ spotlight as someone playing for Spurs? Obviously not. Maybe a more extreme example, but it's obvious there's a difference.
 
It's difficult to pick a first team between the two teams. The keepers are both the best in the Prem, but for me and many others, DDG is ahead of Lloris but he's also a fantastic keeper.

Walker burst on to the scene, but had a difficult second season and showed a lot of weaknesses while Valencia has grown into the RB role however he did struggle massively at first and is now the wrong side of 30. Walker has been solid this season, and was good last year as well so he probably has the edge.

Vertonghen and Alderweirld are the best CB partnership in the division. Even individually, they are probably the best. Smalling had a good season but hasn't featured much this time and has looked dodgy, however I still think he's a top CB but he's going to find it tough to get his place back due to the form of Jones and Rojo. They need to sustain this and stay injury free to the end of the year now to be considered as even near the best CB's in the league.

Bailly was fantastic before his injury but it's too early to include him in any discussion of best CB in the Prem, until he's been consistent for a year or two. LB is easy, Rose has went from strength to strength, while Shaw has been constantly injured and underwhelming in an attacking sense when played in some games. Blind and Darmian are not LB's.

Wanyama has been good for Spurs, much better than I expected but he isn't a great passer of the ball while Herrera is much more positive, it depends what you prefer really. Similar in terms of ability. Carrick is better than both.

Dembele is one of my favourite midfielders, but Pogba is not far behind him currently and is more productive and there's no doubt he will overtake him by the end of the season. I'd have Mata over Eriksen, but it's a close one. Ibra over Kane, but Kane has age on his side and will develop further but his overall game isn't quite there yet so he needs to work on that.

Hard to compare someone to Alli, he's obviously a brilliant talent and is only going to get better. Hard to really rate Mkhi so far, he's been in and out the side due to injuries but on paper, he's probably the best so I'll leave him out in terms of attacking mids/wingers. Alli, Martial, Martial, Mata, Eriksen, Rashford, Son, Sissoko, Lamela and Lingard in that order.

Overall:
De Gea
Walker Alderweirld Vertonghen Rose
Carrick Dembele Pogba
Martial Alli
Ibra

Not Martial's or Alli's best positions but it could potentially work, that would be a hell of a team.
 
Massive Spanner said:
It's strange to be on a Man Utd internet forum where the Spurs fans are the most annoying oppo supporters.
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Even more weird that we find ourselves in a position where Spurs fans actually consider us their rivals and it's not THAT deluded anymore. Back in 2010 or so when Glaston used to spout sheet about them overtaking us soon and 'every season is a blank sheet' nonsense which basically discredited everything that was done in any season leading up to the current one, it was plain deluded and ridiculous. Now they're actually about where we are in the table.

We must change this really. The extent of our decline as a club only sinks in when you realize that we are this close to Tottenham.
 
Phurry said:
I actually put a post in the general thread yesterday saying it's a bit hard to currently work out which are most insufferable, Spuds or Dippers.
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The Liverpool lot are more easily ignored and a couple are decent posters. The Spurs fans are like a water leak, they find their way everywhere and are a constant irritant.
 
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