The Spurs thread | 2016-2017 season | Serious thread - wummers/derailers will be threadbanned

[Attila]

I actually put a post in the general thread yesterday saying it's a bit hard to currently work out which are most insufferable, Spuds or Dippers.

Liverpool fans (and Chelsea, Arsenal etc) on here are fine. Most of the crazy stuff comes from the Spurs fans. It is odd as you'd expect it to be the other way due to the United Liverpool rivalry

 

[IrishRedDevil]

Well it is laughable. You're saying a fella who has just started to play regularly for us is better than the best CB partnership in the League (for the last 2 seasons). Has it crossed your mind that Jones might simply be having a purple patch? One player has shown consistency over the last 2 seasons, the other has shown consistency over 8/9 games. I remember not so long ago everyone was claiming Smalling was the best CB in the Premier League and now look at him. You've not even mentioned him.

15/16 & 16/17 (PL only)

Vertonghen
4305 minutes
48 apps
48 starts
17 clean sheets
42 goals conceded

Jones
1284 minutes
19 apps
15 starts
5 clean sheets
12 goals conceded

Cmon, the sensible choice is always going to be Vertonghen. Jones might well come good but so far it's way too early to include him in a team like that, for all we know he might get an injury again and breakdown for the next 3/4 months like he has done for pretty much his entire United career so far (let's hope not).

I have based my views on this season only, hence not mentioning Smalling, as he only played 5/6 games. I do rate him highly though and think he will be the long term option beside Bailly.

Jones and Rojo have been very impressive this season though and I opted for Jones as he is slightly better on the ball. Having to pick between Smalling, Bailly, Jones and Rojo is a very good headache to have. Most clubs would be jealous of such options.

You ask has it crossed my mind that Jones is having a purple patch - well has it crossed your mind that with a consistent run of games he is starting to fulfil his high potential? Yes, he has had injuries in the past which has been very frustrating, but I prefer to remain optimistic now that our injury record seems to be much improved under Jose.

 

[Sweech]

Even more weird that we find ourselves in a position where Spurs fans actually consider us their rivals and it's not THAT deluded anymore. Back in 2010 or so when Glaston used to spout sheet about them overtaking us soon and 'every season is a blank sheet' nonsense which basically discredited everything that was done in any season leading up to the current one, it was plain deluded and ridiculous. Now they're actually about where we are in the table.

We must change this really. The extent of our decline as a club only sinks in when you realize that we are this close to Tottenham.

Sounds like the Liverpool support.

Maybe it will never sink in then.

 

[shaggy]

Spurs have also improved a lot since 2010, that's clear to see. We're probably the better side this season, though.

 

[jungledrums]

I see. So every United player starts with an inbuilt disadvantage - the extra pressure they are under - compared to every Spurs player.

We can add this to list of inventive excuses that United fans have come up with to explain away and excuse the club's decline over the last 3 years or so. Not only has the team suffered from bad luck and bad officiating, but the poor darlings have also wilted under the kind of pressure apparently not faced before y most other clubs.

I actually agree wth this. Shite excuse and hardly conducive to productive discussion. However, the bitterness from your lot is astounding. Unreal that a bunch of grown ass men become petty toddlers when discussing football.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I meant year older than Rose when they signed for ManUtd. Shaw was 18 and it is what something you call it as a "Fact" ...
.

Fine, so Ronaldo and Shaw were a year older than Rose when they signed respectively for United and Spurs. What are we supposed to glean from this marvellous fact?

 

[GlastonSpur]

... Rose' age, Dele Alli goals, including U21s, U19 goals for Kane to support the argument. It's all laughable.

I haven't changed anything concerning the number of goals scored by Alli, I got Rose's age wrong by a few months (big deal) and the criterion stated (by the poster concerned) for Kane was goals for England - so do goals at U-21 level (etc.) suddenly not count?

 

[GlastonSpur]

Rose isn't a Spurs academy player, he is a Leeds one.

If you're not at the academy for a few years before you're 16 don't think you should count as an academy product at all.

That's your opinion. It doesn't change the fact that Rose also spent a short time at Spur's academy, as well as playing for what was then our reserves team.

Spurs converted him from a left winger into a left wingback/left back and brought him on from the age of 17 to where he is now - probably the best LB in the Prem. So I think it's fair to say that Spurs have played a major part in his youth development and beyond.

 

[GlastonSpur]

It's not necessarily a disadvantage. It may inspire some players. It's just something every United player has to deal with. Some can deal with it, some can't. Cantona pitched up and rose to the challenge. He immediately started playing at a higher level than he had done at Leeds. It can easily go the other way. But you do need that strength of character to make it.

It's the same for any player joining any mammoth superclub like Real Madrid, Barca, Bayern, hell even Liverpool. There's a different weight of expectation on your shoulders to other clubs.

I don't think I'm writing anything controversial here. Look at it from a different angle if you're having trouble wrapping your head around it. Would a professional footballer joining Wycombe Wanderers be under the same set of pressures/ expectations/ spotlight as someone playing for Spurs? Obviously not. Maybe a more extreme example, but it's obvious there's a difference.

United are not in the same bracket as Real Madrid, Barca and Bayern.

And your banging on about the "pressures of playing for United" provides a convenient excuse to explain away any signing who flops, rather than blaming it on poor management and/or coaching or a poor scouting system.

 

[Mihai]

United are not in the same bracket as Real Madrid, Barca and Bayern.

And your banging on about the "pressures of playing for United" provides a convenient excuse to explain away any signing who flops, rather than blaming it on poor management and/or coaching or a poor scouting system.

Why?

 

[djdhrubs]

United are not in the same bracket as Real Madrid, Barca and Bayern.

And your banging on about the "pressures of playing for United" provides a convenient excuse to explain away any signing who flops, rather than blaming it on poor management and/or coaching or a poor scouting system.

I think you might be inferring more from my posts than I intended. I'm not trying to make excuses for anyone. I'm simply saying that a side by side comparison of a Spurs player and United player isn't so straightforward when one club comes with a whole different level of pressure and expectation to another.

Of course poor management/ coaching can explain a flop. For example I don't think Veron flopped at United due to the pressure of playing here, I think Fergie made a mistake tinkering with what was already the best midfield around. On the other hand, Schneiderlin doesn't seem to have the personality/ character to be a United player, and neither does Depay seem to.

As for United not being in the same bracket as those other teams in terms of stature of the club, that's debatable but at least you're now able to see there is a difference between clubs. Similarly, Spurs are not in the same bracket as United.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Even more weird that we find ourselves in a position where Spurs fans actually consider us their rivals and it's not THAT deluded anymore. Back in 2010 or so when Glaston used to spout sheet about them overtaking us soon and 'every season is a blank sheet' nonsense which basically discredited everything that was done in any season leading up to the current one, it was plain deluded and ridiculous. Now they're actually about where we are in the table.

We must change this really. The extent of our decline as a club only sinks in when you realize that we are this close to Tottenham.

I love the way you say "not THAT deluded" ... as if it's nonetheless mostly deluded and Spurs haven't actually finished above United twice in the last 3 seasons and aren't sitting above you this sea season so far.

 

[GlastonSpur]

.... Back in 2010 or so when Glaston used to spout sheet about them overtaking us soon ...

You mean my "sheet" prediction that's turned out to be correct.

 

[Sarni]

I love the way you say "not THAT deluded" ... as if it's nonetheless mostly deluded and Spurs haven't actually finished above United twice in the last 3 seasons and aren't sitting above you this sea season so far.

2 in the last 15 years too. Anomaly.

 

[Sarni]

You mean my "sheet" prediction that's turned out to be correct.

No, it didn't. You never finished above us under Feguson era when we were good. It took Moyes coming here for you to overlap us and well, it was Moyes.

Spurs got better but not nearly by as much as United have got worse by.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Why?

When was the last time RM or Barca or Bayern finished outside the top 4 of their league? United are currently on course to make it 3 times out of the last 4 seasons.

 

[djdhrubs]

When was the last time RM or Barca or Bayern finished outside the top 4 of their league? United are currently on course to make it 3 times out of the last 4 seasons.

That has little to do with decades of success, size of global fan base, having millions to spend and weight of expectation and pressure that comes with the club. In that aspect, United are in the same bracket as those other clubs. If anything, our recent failures intensify that pressure. It's simply not acceptable for United to finish outside the top 4 repeatedly, whereas for Spurs, it wouldn't be such a capital crime.

 

[roonster09]

Fine, so Ronaldo and Shaw were a year older than Rose when they signed respectively for United and Spurs. What are we supposed to glean from this marvellous fact?

So Ronaldo, Shaw, Rooney are manutd academy products?

 

[GlastonSpur]

No, it didn't. You never finished above us under Feguson era when we were good. It took Moyes coming here for you to overlap us and well, it was Moyes.

When I made my prediction it was pretty clear that Fergie would retire in the near future, but I was told that United's money would insulate you from dropping out of the top 4 and that United's squad was so superior there was no chance that Spurs would supplant you in the league. But I was right and the naysayers were proven wrong.

Nor was it just Moyes. It also happened under LvG.

 

[GlastonSpur]

2 in the last 15 years too. Anomaly.

It's hardly an anomaly when it's happened twice in the last 3 years and might well happen again this season.

 

[Bwuk]

It's hardly an anomaly when it's happened twice in the last 3 years and might well happen again this season.

Do you think the levels of expectations are the same at United as Spurs?

If United finished out the top 4 do you think Jose would get sacked? Likewise with Poch at Spurs.

 

[charlton66]

It's hardly an anomaly when it's happened twice in the last 3 years and might well happen again this season.

It's alright pointing out what Tottenham have done relative to United in the last 3 years but the bottom line is we both won nothing major during that period. The question you ought to be asking is "which of the two clubs is most likely to actually WIN a major trophy (CL, Premiership) before the other?" If your answer to that is Spurs, based on your recent (and not so recent) history, IMLTHO you are seriously deluded.

We actually won the Cup last year as well which is more than Spurs have done in more than 25 years.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Do you think the levels of expectations are the same at United as Spurs?

If United finished out the top 4 do you think Jose would get sacked? Likewise with Poch at Spurs.

These days, yes. Spurs expect to be at least challenging for top 4 and perhaps, given the rub of the green, even being in contention for the title - I don't see that United's current expectations are any higher.

I don't think either manager will be sacked if top 4 is not achieved. Do you?

 

[Bwuk]

These days, yes. Spurs expect to be at least challenging for top 4 and perhaps, given the rub of the green, even being in contention for the title - I don't see that United's current expectations are any higher.

I don't think either manager will be sacked if top 4 is not achieved. Do you?

If Jose finished outside the top 4 I'd be surprised if he's still here. Moyes got sacked for it, and so did LvG.

Expectation levels at both clubs are extremely different. We are one of European footballs juggernauts, our sponsors wouldn't be anywhere near as happy with a 6th place finish as Spurs would.

You don't want to admit it, but Spurs yes may be playing at a similar sort of level to United these days, but in terms of size and expectations from the club they aren't anywhere near United imo. Not yet, maybe one day but not yet.

 

[GlastonSpur]

... The question you ought to be asking is "which of the two clubs is most likely to actually WIN a major trophy (CL, Premiership) before the other?" If your answer to that is Spurs based on your recent (and not so recent) history IMLTHO you are seriously deluded ....

I'd say it's something of a toss-up.

United continue to be "in transition", with no end in firm sight as to when that period will end. And although you have lots of money, that can be a double-edged sword when it comes to establishing a clear way forward other than simply throwing large cheques around. This continuing transition includes the looming need to replace at least two players who have been key for United over the years - Carrick and Rooney, not to mention that Zlatan is no spring chicken. And each time new first XI players arrive they may well need time to bed in, even assuming that they prove to be hits.

Spurs, on the other hand, have a clear strategy under Pochettino for continued improvement, based fundamentally on further expected improvements from a generally stable and generally young squad, but coupled with the further introduction of 2 or 3 of the more promising academy players, and perhaps spiced up with one or two relatively expensive signings if Pochettino so wishes, for which money will be available if required.

Moreover, with a new stadium soon arriving the growth in our income will soon take us into the top 10 globally income-wise, so although we will have a much larger debt to service for a while we will also have a much larger income to match, and from what I read and hear these debt levels will form a significantly lower burden than that which Arsenal have had to bear.

 

[Sarni]

When I made my prediction it was pretty clear that Fergie would retire in the near future, but I was told that United's money would insulate you from dropping out of the top 4 and that United's squad was so superior there was no chance that Spurs would supplant you in the league. But I was right and the naysayers were proven wrong.

Nor was it just Moyes. It also happened under LvG.

I don't believe you knew better than Fergie that he would retire. He even wrote himself in his book that even going into 2012-13 season he thought he would carry on for much longer but the death of his wife's sister changed everything so please, don't talk crap.

United with Fergie were never falling out of top 4 but three years of huge mismanagement (which could not have been predicted circa 2010-12 obviously) changed this.

 

[Sarni]

It's hardly an anomaly when it's happened twice in the last 3 years and might well happen again this season.

It's anomaly when it happened twice in the last 20 years. Us finishing higher is a trend (didn't you argue last season that Spurs in top 4 was a trend because you made it 3 times in 7 years or something? Well then we finished ahead of Spurs in 5 of the last 7).

 

[Sarni]

These days, yes. Spurs expect to be at least challenging for top 4 and perhaps, given the rub of the green, even being in contention for the title - I don't see that United's current expectations are any higher.

I don't think either manager will be sacked if top 4 is not achieved. Do you?

United expectations is always to be the best. Even when we aren't, you don't adjust expectations to the level of mid-table team. It's absurd.

 

[Sarni]

If Jose finished outside the top 4 I'd be surprised if he's still here. Moyes got sacked for it, and so did LvG.

Expectation levels at both clubs are extremely different. We are one of European footballs juggernauts, our sponsors wouldn't be anywhere near as happy with a 6th place finish as Spurs would.

You don't want to admit it, but Spurs yes may be playing at a similar sort of level to United these days, but in terms of size and expectations from the club they aren't anywhere near United imo. Not yet, maybe one day but not yet.

Yup. Barcelona finished below Villarreal in 2008 but their expectations would never be the same, even if they were playing at a similar level for a while. Ultimately clubs like Barca, Real Madrid, Juventus, Bayern, and yes, United, these clubs want to compete at the highest level - even though at times they will not be good enough to, they have to do whatever in their power to get back to that level.

 

[GlastonSpur]

If Jose finished outside the top 4 I'd be surprised if he's still here. Moyes got sacked for it, and so did LvG.

Expectation levels at both clubs are extremely different. We are one of European footballs juggernauts, our sponsors wouldn't be anywhere near as happy with a 6th place finish as Spurs would.

You don't want to admit it, but Spurs yes may be playing at a similar sort of level to United these days, but in terms of size and expectations from the club they aren't anywhere near United imo. Not yet, maybe one day but not yet.

I don't think United can hope to get back on track of they keep changing managers every season or two, with a new man coming in to (yet again) change everything. You need a period of continuity and my guess is that the club hierarchy will take the same view.

Expectation levels at both clubs have been very different, yes, but I'm not so sure that's still the case. Do United really expect to be challenging for the title this season? Do they confidently expect to finish above Spurs? Is the club really that confident of even making top 4 this time around?

Of course your sponsors wouldn't be happy with a non-top 4 finish, but that doesn't mean - in terms of expectations - that they'll necessarily be hugely surprised if that happens.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

Yup. Barcelona finished below Villarreal in 2008 but their expectations would never be the same, even if they were playing at a similar level for a while. Ultimately clubs like Barca, Real Madrid, Juventus, Bayern, and yes, United, these clubs want to compete at the highest level - even though at times they will not be good enough to, they have to do whatever in their power to get back to that level.

Every club wants to compete at the highest level.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

Do you think the levels of expectations are the same at United as Spurs?

If United finished out the top 4 do you think Jose would get sacked? Likewise with Poch at Spurs.

I don't think any manager of the current top 6 will be sacked for finishing 5th/6th this season.

Wenger might walk, but I think that's it, the rest are in transition and or development phases.

 

[Sarni]

Every club wants to compete at the highest level.

Not all have the resources and they realize this. They will want to compete at the highest level possible. In no way will goals of Bolton be the same as Arsenal.

 

[GlastonSpur]

It's anomaly when it happened twice in the last 20 years. Us finishing higher is a trend (didn't you argue last season that Spurs in top 4 was a trend because you made it 3 times in 7 years or something? Well then we finished ahead of Spurs in 5 of the last 7).

The difference is that the further you go back in time, the less relevance it has to today. What's the point in talking about 20 years ago? Even looking at 7 years ago has less relevance than looking at the last 3 or 4.

Yes, I've spoken of a trend (much more recent than 20 years ago) concerning Spurs and top 4. This, like my predictions concerning United, have been widely criticised ... but here we are, with Spurs again looking well in contention for another top 4 finish.

I said that the settled dominance of the old top 4 clubs was over, and that the make-up of the top 4 was becoming generally more volatile/in flux ... and so it is proving to be.

 

[Sarni]

The difference is that the further you go back in time, the less relevance it has to today. What's the point in talking about 20 years ago? Even looking at 7 years ago has less relevance than looking at the last 3 or 4.

Yes, I've spoken of a trend (much more recent than 20 years ago) concerning Spurs and top 4. This, like my predictions concerning United, have been widely criticised ... but here we are, with Spurs again looking well in contention for another top 4 finish.

I said that the settled dominance of the old top 4 clubs was over, and that the make-up of the top 4 was becoming generally more volatile/in flux ... and so it is proving to be.

Why did you go back in time to 2011 to prove that you in CL was somehow a trend but we cannot go back to 2011 to prove that we usually finish above you?

 

[GlastonSpur]

Why did you go back in time to 2011 to prove that you in CL was somehow a trend but we cannot go back to 2011 to prove that we usually finish above you?

I haven't said you can't go back to 2011. I've simply said that the more recent years have even greater relevance to today. The same applies to Spurs and 2011.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

Not all have the resources and they realize this. They will want to compete at the highest level possible. In no way will goals of Bolton be the same as Arsenal.

That's a different argument and true enough.

Despite having resources closer to those below us than above us this will be the 8th successive season that we will finish in the top 6. Most here will scoff at that but it's actually pretty impressive and any higher than 6th means that this will be the 7th year in 8 that we've finished higher than our budget warrants. We should be the blueprint for every club who wants to break into the elite group as we've done it with a huge financial disadvantage. The key for us will be what we can achieve when we close that budget gap in the next few years.

I can assure you that expectations amongst Spurs fans are also very high, however we are also not stupid.

 

[Sarni]

I haven't said you can't go back to 2011. I've simply said that the more recent years have even greater relevance to today. The same applies to Spurs and 2011.

Of course. We finished ahead of you in 4 of the last 6 seasons so it's still a trend that we finish higher.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I don't believe you knew better than Fergie that he would retire. He even wrote himself in his book that even going into 2012-13 season he thought he would carry on for much longer but the death of his wife's sister changed everything so please, don't talk crap.

United with Fergie were never falling out of top 4 but three years of huge mismanagement (which could not have been predicted circa 2010-12 obviously) changed this.

The mere fact of his age made it likely that he would soon retire for one reason or another. It's not rocket science.

In case, it's not all about United and Fergie. The signs of increasing top 4 volatility have been there to be seen - except those for those who insisted on burying their heads in the sand and claiming that the composition of the top 4 was more or less cemented in place for good. And the signs of a rising ambition from Spurs were also straws in the wind.

 

[Sarni]

That's a different argument and true enough.

Despite having resources closer to those below us than above us this will be the 8th successive season that we will finish in the top 6. Most here will scoff at that but it's actually pretty impressive and any higher than 6th means that this will be the 7th year in 8 that we've finished higher than our budget warrants. We should be the blueprint for every club who wants to break into the elite group as we've done it with a huge financial disadvantage. The key for us will be what we can achieve when we close that budget gap in the next few years.

I can assure you that expectations amongst Spurs fans are also very high, however we are also not stupid.

I don't doubt that your expectations will be high. IMO with good management you could soon join Atletico among top clubs, i.e. be one of the clubs who are not that famous or rich but consistently do well. For that you need to actually show yourselves in Europe though, recent performances haven't been anywhere near good enough and CL this year proved that you are some way off.