The search for a holding/controlling midfielder

devilish said:
It was over Italian media. I still think he'll end up at Juventus eventually because he's Italian and talented (most end up there these days). However the Italian league is far less physical then the EPL
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It being in the Italian media doesn't mean much, that's how the media operates during the transfer window. Even if they were genuinely interested, a polite feck off is the best they could hope for from PSG.

As far as his next move is concerned, his last contract extension caught me by surprise a bit as I was hoping he'd move to a bigger league. Whenever he does, he'll have all the top clubs lining up so Juve would be lucky if they can pull him because of the nationality factor. He's the best CM in his age bracket in the world in my book.
 
You all are crying for Verratti to come at United, but do you really think that by being in Europa League again next year will help us ? Verratti will have the choice between Paris, Juve and Bayern.

Of course he can stay at Paris, a city he loves, winning trophies in a meaningless League. He can also go back to Italy, where he can play for the club he supported. But he can also go to Munich, try to win the Champs League with a manager he loves and where the style will suit him...

Do you all think that Verratti is an extraordinary talent ?

Is he a regular starter for Italy ? No

Is he the best player of PSG ? No

It's been two years that he's crap at Paris. He never shines in big games expect 4 years ago at Barcelona. He's capricious kid since he came to Paris, and the club begins to be irritated by him.

Since last year and his long injury, he hanged out with some strange friends and is out every night in Paris.

This summer he cried because Zlatan, his big brother left. It was only a matter of having a better contract.

He's not the ultimate player. He's talented, no doubt about that. But his professionalism is questionned.

Can he does it at United, where the pressure is higher ? I don't think so.

He looks like loving the easy way, and if he leaves Paris, it'll be whether Bayern or Juve.
 
Varun said:
It being in the Italian media doesn't mean much, that's how the media operates during the transfer window. Even if they were genuinely interested, a polite feck off is the best they could hope for from PSG.

As far as his next move is concerned, his last contract extension caught me by surprise a bit as I was hoping he'd move to a bigger league. Whenever he does, he'll have all the top clubs lining up so Juve would be lucky if they can pull him because of the nationality factor. He's the best CM in his age bracket in the world in my book.
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Lets make things clear because there's plenty of room for misunderstanding here

a- I do rate Verratti. He's no Andrea Pirlo (@Chaky_Best gave a great assessment of him) but the boy is talented and he can improve
b- I wouldn't mind him at OT if the price is right.
c- If we're planning of taking the best out of Verratti then we need to have the team structured in the right way especially considering that we've already got Pogba. In few words we can't have them play together without a DM watching their back and that man can't be Herrera or any of our current employees for all that matter. Verratti is too small to be DM and Pogba is simply wasted in a deeper role.

Also note that Italian football works very different in Italy. The club's structure is way more primitive then ours and the gap between people within the club and people outside the club is way smaller. Its common for club directors to say to the media that they are meeting X Club's director to negotiate for Y Player. Case in point is what happened with Mourinho few weeks before signing with us. Moratti's sister met the man only for her to spill the beans regarding were the Portuguese was heading to.

So lets return to Juventus. They weren't interested in him prior of him moving to PSG and they passed the chance of signing him this summer. That doesn't mean that they do not rate him. It means that they came to my same conclusions ie that its impossible to take the best out of him without them having a proper DM. Hence why they are extremely interested in someone like Witsel and N'Zonzi first. After they sealed the deal they will probably move on Verratti
 
Weigl is a really interesting player and similar in many way´s to Carrick. He did play very well against Real in the CL the other day and for me is the option to replace Carrick.
 
devilish said:
Lets make things clear because there's plenty of room for misunderstanding here

a- I do rate Verratti. He's no Andrea Pirlo (@Chaky_Best gave a great assessment of him) but the boy is talented and he can improve
b- I wouldn't mind him at OT if the price is right.
c- If we're planning of taking the best out of Verratti then we need to have the team structured in the right way especially considering that we've already got Pogba. In few words we can't have them play together without a DM watching their back and that man can't be Herrera or any of our current employees for all that matter. Verratti is too small to be DM and Pogba is simply wasted in a deeper role.

Also note that Italian football works very different in Italy. The club's structure is way more primitive then ours and the gap between people within the club and people outside the club is way smaller. Its common for club directors to say to the media that they are meeting X Club's director to negotiate for Y Player. Case in point is what happened with Mourinho few weeks before signing with us. Moratti's sister met the man only for her to spill the beans regarding were the Portuguese was heading to.

So lets return to Juventus. They weren't interested in him prior of him moving to PSG and they passed the chance of signing him this summer. That doesn't mean that they do not rate him. It means that they came to my same conclusions ie that its impossible to take the best out of him without them having a proper DM. Hence why they are extremely interested in someone like Witsel and N'Zonzi first. After they sealed the deal they will probably move on Verratti
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My disagreement is about Juve passing on the chance to sign Verratti this summer. If he was available, there'd be a mile long line to sign him up. It's not a transfer they can conclude on the sly unless Verratti turns down every other big club. That's why there's no "passing up" that has happened, either its the usual media bullshit or they contacted PSG and were told to feck off.
 
Witsel is gash, I hope we stay well clear. I am interested in Nzonzi though.
 
devilish said:
Lets make things clear because there's plenty of room for misunderstanding here

a- I do rate Verratti. He's no Andrea Pirlo (@Chaky_Best gave a great assessment of him) but the boy is talented and he can improve
b- I wouldn't mind him at OT if the price is right.
c- If we're planning of taking the best out of Verratti then we need to have the team structured in the right way especially considering that we've already got Pogba. In few words we can't have them play together without a DM watching their back and that man can't be Herrera or any of our current employees for all that matter. Verratti is too small to be DM and Pogba is simply wasted in a deeper role.

Also note that Italian football works very different in Italy. The club's structure is way more primitive then ours and the gap between people within the club and people outside the club is way smaller. Its common for club directors to say to the media that they are meeting X Club's director to negotiate for Y Player. Case in point is what happened with Mourinho few weeks before signing with us. Moratti's sister met the man only for her to spill the beans regarding were the Portuguese was heading to.

So lets return to Juventus. They weren't interested in him prior of him moving to PSG and they passed the chance of signing him this summer. That doesn't mean that they do not rate him. It means that they came to my same conclusions ie that its impossible to take the best out of him without them having a proper DM. Hence why they are extremely interested in someone like Witsel and N'Zonzi first. After they sealed the deal they will probably move on Verratti
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In fact, and from what I know, when he was in Italy's second division, his club Pescara negotiated with Juve, and where ok with the transfer. The issue here was the modalities and how Juve would pay the fee. Juventus wanted to pay in two times. But PSG and Leonardo came, gave 11M€ straight and Pescara sold them Verratti.

It was only a matter of time, but he could have been at Juve.
 
@Chaky_Best just out of curiosity, what are your sources and who do you support/where you based .. found your Verratti post very interesting.
 
Raees said:
@Chaky_Best just out of curiosity, what are your sources and who do you support/where you based .. found your Verratti post very interesting.
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RMC for the Verratti's sources. Daniel Riolo, probably the best pundit in France, is very close to PSG and Juventus. And, Verratti's agent is quite loud in the Italian journos so there are multiple sources.

Who I support ? United of course, I'm not interested in Paris at all, I hate them to be honest, the new Chitteh

And yeah, I'm based in France
 
Chaky_Best said:
RMC for the Verratti's sources. Daniel Riolo, probably the best pundit in France, is very close to PSG and Juventus. And, Verratti's agent is quite loud in the Italian journos so there are multiple sources.

Who I support ? United of course, I'm not interested in Paris at all, I hate them to be honest, the new Chitteh

And yeah, I'm based in France
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Cool thanks for that. I got abit of stick before with my thread saying that Verratti needs to prove himself outside of PSG and the fact if he remains there it would speak volumes about his ambition.

Do you think he is an ambitious player? does he want to win big trophies like the Champions League..
 
Any chance of getting Toni Kroos in the summer?

He might not be a pure DM like Carrick but he's an elite playmaker and Herrera could sit alongside him and Pogba?
 
United Pro said:
I'd say we should be in for for Witsel as he's a good Carrick replacement. Plus he's only got 6 months left on his contract.
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Hmm I am not 100% sure on that

Most EPL clubs are using an extremely pedantic way of playing. They basically defend very tight and then try to hit the bigger opponents on counter attacks. Having a conventional DM who just sits at the back and break the opponent’s game flow might not be very useful for us.
What I was thinking was more in terms of what Juventus had back in their glory days ie a top quality playmaker, a physically strong box to box midfielder and Pogba.

Many keep mentioning Carrick and how he was able to do so well with us despite not being Keane and Ince. Those who do so have a valid point. However they seem to underestimate the fact that Carrick was 6ft2, he had incredible positioning and he knew his stuff in terms of defending. In such circumstances maybe we should find a playmaker who can do the same ie someone like Wiegl or Jorginho. As box to box midfielder we’ve already got one ie Herrera. There again, I still believe that there will be games when we might need to add a bit more steel in midfield so someone like Drinkwater or Hector Herrera could do.

So if you ask me this would be my CM

---------------Jorginho/Wiegl---------------
------------------------------------Herreras--
-------------Pogba/Mata-----------------
 
Chaky_Best said:
In fact, and from what I know, when he was in Italy's second division, his club Pescara negotiated with Juve, and where ok with the transfer. The issue here was the modalities and how Juve would pay the fee. Juventus wanted to pay in two times. But PSG and Leonardo came, gave 11M€ straight and Pescara sold them Verratti.

It was only a matter of time, but he could have been at Juve.
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The reason for them to hesitate on the fee was mainly because of his lack of inches. They already had their fingers burnt with anyone midget with great talent ie Giovinco.
 
United Pro said:
Well unless he's signed a pre-contract agreement (which is illegal for a month or so), he can still change his mind.
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They haven't signed anything yet from what I've seen in the papers but they have been flirting for a year now and allegedly have verbal agreement to get him for 6 million this January.

Witsel wanted to join Juve last summer but Zenit refused their 20 million bid even tho the player himself insisted he wanted to leave.

Also Witsel refused financially better offer from Everton in order to join Juve and that's why he doesn't want to sign a new contract.
 
Fracture90 said:
They haven't signed anything yet from what I've seen in the papers but they have been flirting for a year now and allegedly have verbal agreement to get him for 6 million this January.

Witsel wanted to join Juve last summer but Zenit refused their 20 million bid even tho the player himself insisted he wanted to leave.

Also Witsel refused financially better offer from Everton in order to join Juve and that's why he doesn't want to sign a new contract.
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Yes that's true, but Juve are a much bigger club atm than Everton. If United came in for him, it'd may well be a different story. Besides, Witsel has said he's wanted to play in the premier league (but clearly he was referring to a top team.)
 
devilish said:
Hmm I am not 100% sure on that

Most EPL clubs are using an extremely pedantic way of playing. They basically defend very tight and then try to hit the bigger opponents on counter attacks. Having a conventional DM who just sits at the back and break the opponent’s game flow might not be very useful for us.
What I was thinking was more in terms of what Juventus had back in their glory days ie a top quality playmaker, a physically strong box to box midfielder and Pogba.

Many keep mentioning Carrick and how he was able to do so well with us despite not being Keane and Ince. Those who do so have a valid point. However they seem to underestimate the fact that Carrick was 6ft2, he had incredible positioning and he knew his stuff in terms of defending. In such circumstances maybe we should find a playmaker who can do the same ie someone like Wiegl or Jorginho. As box to box midfielder we’ve already got one ie Herrera. There again, I still believe that there will be games when we might need to add a bit more steel in midfield so someone like Drinkwater or Hector Herrera could do.

So if you ask me this would be my CM

---------------Jorginho/Wiegl---------------
------------------------------------Herreras--
-------------Pogba/Mata-----------------
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Witsel has gone off the radar in recent seasons due to his move to Russia. But I'd say he's technically very accomplished to play the deeplying playmaker role (like he has done numerous times for Belgium), but he also has the mobility and defensive ability to add some steel to our midfield. He'd be a free transfer at the end of the summer anyway.

Drinkwater is a decent player, but I wouldn't say he's better than say Schneiderlin when it comes to adding some steel to our midfield, so I can't understand us paying more for Drinkwater than what we would get for selling Schneiderlin. It would be a LVG type of signing where we would spend more money to not really improve. If we were to spend money, I'd say we should move for Strootman, who plays a very similar role to Matic. Weigl is also a good shout for a Carrick replacement, but I can't see Dortmund selling. And I agree with your point on Jorginho.
 
United Pro said:
Yes that's true, but Juve are a much bigger club atm than Everton. If United came in for him, it'd may well be a different story. Besides, Witsel has said he's wanted to play in the premier league (but clearly he was referring to a top team.)
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I sincerely doubt that we could snatch him in front of Juve, tho i don't rate him as a player, it would be great to do that to Juve.
 
Raees said:
Cool thanks for that. I got abit of stick before with my thread saying that Verratti needs to prove himself outside of PSG and the fact if he remains there it would speak volumes about his ambition.

Do you think he is an ambitious player? does he want to win big trophies like the Champions League..
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I think that he's an ambitious player, but he's not a Ronaldo wanting to be the best in the world.

At 22, I guess that his main focus would be to be a regular starter for Italy, knowing that is position at PSG is safe now
 
Fracture90 said:
I sincerely doubt that we could snatch him in front of Juve, tho i don't rate him as a player, it would be great to do that to Juve.
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I don't see why not tbh. He's said in the past that he wants to move to the premier league and given that he moved to Russia, he's clearly interested in money. Given that, United will surely be able to pay more than Juve, it's very much possible. There are however, better alternatives on the market, but picking him up on a free transfer would be decent business as we could always sell him on for £15m+, if we no longer needed him.
 
Whatever happened to William Carvalho?
 
United Pro said:
I don't see why not tbh. He's said in the past that he wants to move to the premier league and given that he moved to Russia, he's clearly interested in money. Given that, United will surely be able to pay more than Juve, it's very much possible. There are however, better alternatives on the market, but picking him up on a free transfer would be decent business as we could always sell him on for £15m+, if we no longer needed him.
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Because he gave his word to Juve, unless he wants to be a cnut.

He will be without contact but in that case we would need to offer him a "sign up" bonus.
 
United Pro said:
Witsel has gone off the radar in recent seasons due to his move to Russia. But I'd say he's technically very accomplished to play the deeplying playmaker role (like he has done numerous times for Belgium), but he also has the mobility and defensive ability to add some steel to our midfield. He'd be a free transfer at the end of the summer anyway.

Drinkwater is a decent player, but I wouldn't say he's better than say Schneiderlin when it comes to adding some steel to our midfield, so I can't understand us paying more for Drinkwater than what we would get for selling Schneiderlin. It would be a LVG type of signing where we would spend more money to not really improve. If we were to spend money, I'd say we should move for Strootman, who plays a very similar role to Matic. Weigl is also a good shout for a Carrick replacement, but I can't see Dortmund selling. And I agree with your point on Jorginho.
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Drinkwater would be a cover/competitor for Herrera. He'll give us more physicality and workrate then Herrera in exchange of less passing ability. However that's not the point

Names are secondary at this point. What we should focus upon is the concept behind it

ie

- a deep lying playmaker who can defend his quarters when needed
- a box to box midfielder whose physically tougher and more defensive minded then Herrera
- Pogba
 
joedirt87 said:
I always thought Strootman was a lock when van Gaal was here and then he got that big injury.
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Yeah, LvG adored him, it was very unfortunate he got that injury.

Strootman is a great all-round midfielder, he can play the deep-lying playmaker and box-to-box role to a high standard.

I think this video demonstrates well some of the things he can give us:



Great passing between the lines.
 
devilish said:
Drinkwater would be a cover/competitor for Herrera. He'll give us more physicality and workrate then Herrera in exchange of less passing ability. However that's not the point

Names are secondary at this point. What we should focus upon is the concept behind it

ie

- a deep lying playmaker who can defend his quarters when needed
- a box to box midfielder whose physically tougher and more defensive minded then Herrera
- Pogba
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IMO, there are 2 ways of replacing Carrick if we continue to play 3 midfielders.
a) Get a defensive midfielder like Danilo(From Porto)/N'Zonzi to protect the back four, breaking up attacks quickly and aim to release the ball to the more capable passers ahead, Ander and Pogba as soon as he can. Fosu-Mensah, could be a viable option in the future here, depending on how his passing and positioning play develops in the next few years.
b) Get a young deep-lying playmaker, in which case the defensive responsibility will need to be shared by Pogba and Ander too. Julian Weigl/Leandro Paredes/William Carvalho can be pretty good alternatives here. This might turn out to be a bit risky though, as Pogba's weak defensive side and workrate along with Ander's occasional rashness would be exposed.
Paredes is an interesting option here. He is developing very well, superb vision and skills on the ball, good set-piece taker, very clean tackling abilities, good reading of the game. If he continues his growth like this, very soon the likes of Barcelona, Man City, Bayern will be after him.
For now, It all depends on how Jose wants to handle this situation and considering the fact that we are selling Bastian and Morgan by next summer.
 
I am more interested in knowing why our academy never produces these types of players. Holding midfield is a type of position that can be trained unlike strikers, wingers etc. where some raw skills are needed that are almost impossible to teach. We should absolutely have at least 2-3 high potential central midfielders coming through the ranks at any given stage.
 
Chaky_Best said:
In fact, and from what I know, when he was in Italy's second division, his club Pescara negotiated with Juve, and where ok with the transfer. The issue here was the modalities and how Juve would pay the fee. Juventus wanted to pay in two times. But PSG and Leonardo came, gave 11M€ straight and Pescara sold them Verratti.

It was only a matter of time, but he could have been at Juve.
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Also read this;

http://www.football-italia.net/40264/verratti-why-i-turned-down-juve
 
RedCurry said:
I am more interested in knowing why our academy never produces these types of players. Holding midfield is a type of position that can be trained unlike strikers, wingers etc. where some raw skills are needed that are almost impossible to teach. We should absolutely have at least 2-3 high potential central midfielders coming through the ranks at any given stage.
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England doesn't really have a good track record with these holding\controlling mids. Their greats have been more b2b or attacking. I guess the football they practice in continental countries are more fitted to culturing such midfielders.

Also I think some part of it may be how long it takes for a holding\controlling mid to mature and be cultivated. A club like MUFC seldom has time for this unless it is a generational talent.
 
devilish said:
Drinkwater would be a cover/competitor for Herrera. He'll give us more physicality and workrate then Herrera in exchange of less passing ability. However that's not the point

Names are secondary at this point. What we should focus upon is the concept behind it

ie

- a deep lying playmaker who can defend his quarters when needed
- a box to box midfielder whose physically tougher and more defensive minded then Herrera
- Pogba
Click to expand...
So you're saying we need 2 new first team midfielders? Or rather, 1 first team deep lying playmaker and a box to box that can rotate with Herrera? Tbh, I'd probably agree. If we were to sell Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger and say Fellaini, we would be lacking in both regions. Herrera has been class the last few games, but I feel like we lack a bit of steel in midfield against certain opposition. But I don't believe Drinkwater should be a solution.
 
Pogba-Herrera
-----Passer-------

With a new, mobile and technically strong, probably younger CM as cover for the top 2, and Carrick giving us another year then being replaced by a new signing as the backup 6, probably a cheaper but not young player considering the position and Mourinho's preference for veterans. There are options out there.

As for the new Carrick, I'd say Weigl is basically ideal, he's a brilliant passer in that area of the park, Koke would maybe require an adjustment but would be great in time and a less sexy player excelling there now might also work. I don't think the Prem has that player unless Xhaka wants to leave Arsenal and they want him gone, or we think Drinkwater has another leap in him or we sneakily grab Fernandinho if he is on a free this summer. But maybe Illaramendi has put his career back on track or Iturraspe is ready for a bit club. Mourinho did well at Inter with the classy Motta in that role and if our CBs are going to be better D than passers (which seems likely if Bailly, Smalling and Jones end up with the most starts with Blind getting some in easier games but more at LB and maybe replacing Carrick as DM cover if Shaw isn't the next De Bruyne or Lukaku style Mourinho exile) then id like a Motta more than a Makelele.
 
Will be our most important signing this winter \ next summer. We really need to get this one right with the first try, and spend as much as fecking necessary.

Hard position to get right though, not any stand out candidate like there are in most other positions, well if you exclude Verratti and to some extent Weigl, but there is no point in even entertaining the thought.
 
SwansonsTache said:
Will be our most important signing this winter \ next summer. We really need to get this one right with the first try, and spend as much as fecking necessary.

Hard position to get right though, not any stand out candidate like there are in most other positions, well if you exclude Verratti and to some extent Weigl, but there is no point in even entertaining the thought.
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Weigl might be available at some point but it won't be next year. I think his deal goes until 2019 so the earliest they will entertain the idea of letting him go might be circa 2018.
 
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