The search for a holding/controlling midfielder

Devil may care said:
Blind is massively inferior to Verratti in midfield, really good utility option for LB and CB though which is how Jose has used him so far, he clearly has no intention of putting him in midfield, he'll even bring back Schweinsteiger rather than do it.
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I just think we are going through a rough patch and assume the answer is buying all these top names from other leagues. I'm not saying Blind is a better player than Verratti but I think he would be a good playmaker/DM for us & we know the level he can perform in the PL. Verratti is an unknown and we aren't really in a place where we can gamble.

From comments below you seem to have followed him extensively, would you say he is the best option for us? Who else would you like to see? (not wuming genuine question)
 
devilish said:
I am not acting as a dick. Im asking. Seriously mate, I've been following the guy for so much time that I find it difficult to relate to what you're saying. However yes, I may have acted as a dick about it so I apologise.

Verratti is an Italian product ie from Pescara. Prior to his arrival to PSG he was courted by Juventus (like most of Italian players anyway) but they decided not to sign him up because he's too small and frail. Juventus had their fingers burnt by another tiny player ie Sebastian Giovinco who possess great talent but kept being tossed around like a rag doll until he ended up playing in Canada.

Last summer Juventus had the chance to sign Verratti, mainly because they could afford him (selling Pogba). They passed the chance because again, they thought he's too small and frail for them. I assure you that Juventus scouts are top class and they rarely get things wrong (although there were occasions when they did). I can make a list of all the young talent they found but I doubt redcafe had the necessary bandwidth for that (ok I am exxagerating but you get the gist of it)

My knowledge about the Bundersliga is far less then that of Italian football. However from what I've read and the little I've seen Wiegl seems to be a good passer of the ball. Maybe the Bayern Munich guy can give us his review about him if he cares speaking about anything apart from Bastian.
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It's cool dev, just didn't see the point in the debate turning in that direction. I have watched a lot of PSG since he went there both in Ligue 1 and the CL, I just don't see Verratti as this weak sauce player that can't hack it in the PL, this is one that Juve got wrong in my view and I doubt they could have gotten him in the summer as PSG simply seem unwilling to sell him to anyone because they value him so highly to their "project" and Juse got Pjanic and used thye rest of their money to try and cripple last season's closest challenger, basically the Bayern tactic.

I watch Dortmund most weeks as they play the most entertaining football in Europe IMO, and yes Weigl is a superb passer, not as adventurous as Verratti or Pirlo but accurate and relentless, a real metronome. He has the height for the PL and is often tasked with holding alone as Dortmund play very offensive, but we have at least two Dortmund fans here that could certainly enlarge on him.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I just think we are going through a rough patch and assume the answer is buying all these top names from other leagues. I'm not saying Blind is a better player than Verratti but I think he would be a good playmaker/DM for us & we know the level he can perform in the PL. Verratti is an unknown and we aren't really in a place where we can gamble.

From comments below you seem to have followed him extensively, would you say he is the best option for us? Who else would you like to see? (not wuming genuine question)
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I agree that just buying lots of new players isn't the answer, it's why I'm not really bothered about wingers we are linked with or even Griezmann, I don't think they fit what we are building here, which is Pogba as a centerpiece of the midfield which requires a proper playmaker in there to allow him to do what he does best, I just don't see that player to compliment him in this squad bar Carrick. Blind is a good player but I don't see him being used in the midfield here by Jose.

I think Verratti or Weigl offer the kind of top class metronome this team needs to compliment what we have, but I think N'Zonzi is a potentially interesting option, as is Paredes from Roma.
 
Devil may care said:
It's cool dev, just didn't see the point in the debate turning in that direction. I have watched a lot of PSG since he went there both in Ligue 1 and the CL, I just don't see Verratti as this weak sauce player that can't hack it in the PL, this is one that Juve got wrong in my view and I doubt they could have gotten him in the summer as PSG simply seem unwilling to sell him to anyone because they value him so highly to their "project" and Juse got Pjanic and used thye rest of their money to try and cripple last season's closest challenger, basically the Bayern tactic.

I watch Dortmund most weeks as they play the most entertaining football in Europe IMO, and yes Weigl is a superb passer, not as adventurous as Verratti or Pirlo but accurate and relentless, a real metronome. He has the height for the PL and is often tasked with holding alone as Dortmund play very offensive, but we have at least two Dortmund fans here that could certainly enlarge on him.
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TBF I am not really impressed about this year’s Juventus transfer strategy either. I expected better from Juventus TBH. Higuaín was a lazy transfer, meant to stick the middle finger to a team who dared thinking that they are at the same level of Juventus. TBF Aurelio De Laurentiis is quite an AHole and he managed to do something that it is very rare to do (ie pushing Juventus to act on sentiment rather than logic). Pjanic was planned long before Pogba was sold and had nothing to do with him whatsoever.

However, I wouldn’t dismiss Juventus scouts who remain among the best people in their job. Sure his passing ability is incredible. However I share their concerns about him being very weak physically (although I feel he’ll edge it in the Serie A)
 
Devil may care said:
I agree that just buying lots of new players isn't the answer, it's why I'm not really bothered about wingers we are linked with or even Griezmann, I don't think they fit what we are building here, which is Pogba as a centerpiece of the midfield which requires a proper playmaker in there to allow him to do what he does best, I just don't see that player to compliment him in this squad bar Carrick. Blind is a good player but I don't see him being used in the midfield here by Jose.

I think Verratti or Weigl offer the kind of top class metronome this team needs to compliment what we have, but I think N'Zonzi is a potentially interesting option, as is Paredes from Roma.
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Yh it's interesting how N'Zonzi has grown in status since his move abroad. I remember him being good but never thought he would be linked with the top clubs.

I like when PL teams sign big names directly from La Liga because I think they generally live up to hype Aguero, Torres, Costa, Silva, Fabregas, Mata (even someone like ADM was clearly good but didn't fit Man Utd system). I always liked Koke as a player - how would you compare him to Verratti?
 
devilish said:
TBF I am not really impressed about this year’s Juventus transfer strategy either. I expected better from Juventus TBH. Higuaín was a lazy transfer, meant to stick the middle finger to a team who dared thinking that they are at the same level of Juventus. TBF Aurelio De Laurentiis is quite an AHole and he managed to do something that it is very rare to do (ie pushing Juventus to act on sentiment rather than logic). Pjanic was planned long before Pogba was sold and had nothing to do with him whatsoever.

However, I wouldn’t dismiss Juventus scouts who remain among the best people in their job. Sure his passing ability is incredible. However I share their concerns about him being very weak physically (although I feel he’ll edge it in the Serie A)
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Lazy is a good word to describe the Higuain deal, they didn't really need him and just seemed to be intent on killing the competition in Serie A is possible, same with buying Pjanic from Roma, they fired shots at both of their closest rivals.

Oh I am not dismissing them, I am just saying that I think they got this one wrong and I think if he was avialable for trasnfer Juve would be in the mix for him.

tomaldinho1 said:
Yh it's interesting how N'Zonzi has grown in status since his move abroad. I remember him being good but never thought he would be linked with the top clubs.

I like when PL teams sign big names directly from La Liga because I think they generally live up to hype Aguero, Torres, Costa, Silva, Fabregas, Mata (even someone like ADM was clearly good but didn't fit Man Utd system). I always liked Koke as a player - how would you compare him to Verratti?
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N'Zonzi seems to have crept up on people, myself included. He's a good mix of size, athleticism and positioning, while also being decent on the ball.

Koke is class, he actually reminds me a lot of Roy Keane when he's played as a CM rather than RM. He's not as good a passer as Verratti but he is a good passer and his all round game is excellent, he's got a proper engine, defends like a beast and leads from the center, I'd love him here.
 
Tielemans is potentially the guy for the future but he needs a year or two in La Ligue 1 or Bundesliga to further develop.
 
We should just sign idrissa gueye from Everton, he's been brilliant for Everton this season and there's not many better DM's better that can play in this league, he is essentially a carbon copy of kante.

I'm just sick of signing all these big names that don't produce anything worthy and are more interested in how much they can earn or what they spend their money on rather than caring about the club. We should try signing lesser names, less expensive players that have quality and developing them further. Maybe incorporate Memphis into the deal if Everton are keen as reports suggest.
 
dannyrhinos89 said:
We should just sign idrissa gueye from Everton, he's been brilliant for Everton this season and there's not many better DM's better that can play in this league, he is essentially a carbon copy of kante.

I'm just sick of signing all these big names that don't produce anything worthy and are more interested in how much they can earn or what they spend their money on rather than caring about the club. We should try signing lesser names, less expensive players that have quality and developing them further. Maybe incorporate Memphis into the deal if Everton are keen as reports suggest.
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We've done the lesser name thing as well with the likes of Darmian and Schneiderlin and that didn't work out either, transfers are hit and miss regardless of whether the player is a star or not, look at Ibra, he came here on a free and is a huge name making obscene money, but while some could criticise some of his games I don't think he's lacked effort and has bagged 12 goals so far. This lad Gueye is another flash in the pan workhorse IMO and hasn't got the passing game we need added to this team, he'd just be a more defensive version of Herrera.
 
dannyrhinos89 said:
We should just sign idrissa gueye from Everton, he's been brilliant for Everton this season and there's not many better DM's better that can play in this league, he is essentially a carbon copy of kante.

I'm just sick of signing all these big names that don't produce anything worthy and are more interested in how much they can earn or what they spend their money on rather than caring about the club. We should try signing lesser names, less expensive players that have quality and developing them further. Maybe incorporate Memphis into the deal if Everton are keen as reports suggest.
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He's clearly not someone who sits, just like Kante isn't. He loves to sprint about chasing the ball to good effect and releasing the ball to pass it onto someone who can pass the ball better than he can. Perhaps an actual CDM who actually likes to sit and is reasonably comfortable on the ball is a better idea?
 
Idrissa gueye is like Sadio Mane on this forum, very underrated. Yes he likes move all over the pitch like Kante, but he can also sit in front of the back four and just protect it. He is the definition of a Mourinho player. We would do very well to get him from Everton. Give them Depay, Morgan and TFM on loan and let them sell us Gueye.
 
The BlackGaijin said:
Idrissa gueye is like Sadio Mane on this forum, very underrated. Yes he likes move all over the pitch like Kante, but he can also sit in front of the back four and just protect it. He is the definition of a Mourinho player. We would do very well to get him from Everton. Give them Depay, Morgan and TFM on loan and let them sell us Gueye.
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He is actually rated highly by quite a-few on here.
 
Re: verratti, there is always a chance that a small cm will fail in the Orem, no matter how good he has been in France. I've been impressed with him in big CL games must be said, although in more of a gladiator way rather than a playmaker- he has got stuck in and not looked out of place. That said, Herreras performance this season have been better than ive seen verratti play in cl.

He is easy on the eye, like pogba, so that always helps inflating reputations
 
I think the fact that we look best with Carrick in front of the defence means ideally we need a deep lying play maker who is also a defensive midfielder. Very hard to come by, it's usually one or the other. I honestly can't think of any other than Blind due to his passing ability, but maybe not of the required level.
 
Jacky Quacky said:
It has to be Verrati, if not then Weigl.

Verrati
Herrera Pogba

That would be one of the best midfields in the world.
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I agree. If we are going to invest in a key position in our team, then we better do it right. Those two are the best we could ask for.

Worth noting that N'Zonzi is doing amazing at Sevilla and still think Krychowiak is a beast, even if he didn't adapt to PSG yet. Did amazing for a couple of seasons at Sevilla and continued to impress me at the Euros.
 
Andreas Pereira can probably develop into this type of player I think. I don't think he has the dynamism to have the best impact further forward, but he has a good passing range, and good close control. He also knows how to tackle and look after himself. As he develops physically, I think he could be an excellent #6.

He would need to develop the defensive side of his game in terms of positioning of course.

Other than him, I'm of course on board any sort of Verratti train. He's a world class midfielder for me. I haven't seen enough of Dahoud, although heard great things.
 
How much might Weigl cost? He is contracted until summer 2019.
 
Danillaco said:
I agree. If we are going to invest in a key position in our team, then we better do it right. Those two are the best we could ask for.

Worth noting that N'Zonzi is doing amazing at Sevilla and still think Krychowiak is a beast, even if he didn't adapt to PSG yet. Did amazing for a couple of seasons at Sevilla and continued to impress me at the Euros.
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I'm shocked Krychowiak isn't playing well at PSG, he looked so good every game I watched him. Thought he would walk into that league and dominate it easy.
 
whatwha said:
How much might Weigl cost? He is contracted until summer 2019.
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I can't see Dortmund selling for less than £40m. But I'd strongly doubt they would next summer tbh, as they generally only sell those that have 1 year left on their contract. They'll likely cash in on Aubemeyang next summer anyway, so we likely won't see any other big sales from them.
 
whatwha said:
How much might Weigl cost? He is contracted until summer 2019.
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TBH don't think they would consider selling him unless some ridiculous offer comes in.

He's got 3 years on his contract, plays regularly there and he himself stated it few times he's enjoying it there.
 
United Pro said:
I can't see Dortmund selling for less than £40m. But I'd strongly doubt they would next summer tbh, as they generally only sell those that have 1 year left on their contract. They'll likely cash in on Aubemeyang next summer anyway, so we likely won't see any other big sales from them.
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Well, break the bank for both and we are in an amazing position. As much as I love Ibra, if we could have Auba and don't renew with him, having Rashford as backup, I would do it in a heartbeat.
 
Adam-Utd said:
I'm shocked Krychowiak isn't playing well at PSG, he looked so good every game I watched him. Thought he would walk into that league and dominate it easy.
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Me too. And with Emery also. You would think he would displace Tiago Motta, having his ex-coach bringing you to his new team, but Motta (whom I've never considered a top player, but is certainly of the most useful ones in football) held himself very well.
 
Just like we replaced Keane with Carrick, people are going to be disappointed if we are expecting a like to like replacement. I am expecting one of Fabinho, Nzonzi, Carvalho model signings and not exactly a " Deep lying playmaker"

You can forget Weigi or Verratti - both are not happening.
 
Rozay said:
Andreas Pereira can probably develop into this type of player I think. I don't think he has the dynamism to have the best impact further forward, but he has a good passing range, and good close control. He also knows how to tackle and look after himself. As he develops physically, I think he could be an excellent #6.

He would need to develop the defensive side of his game in terms of positioning of course.

Other than him, I'm of course on board any sort of Verratti train. He's a world class midfielder for me. I haven't seen enough of Dahoud, although heard great things.
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Pereira is never going to be a top class holding midfielder. He's not even a holding midfielder at this point.
 
Sarni said:
Pereira is never going to be a top class holding midfielder. He's not even a holding midfielder at this point.
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Well, what exactly is 'holding'? I certainly think he can be a deep midfielder. Was Xavi or Pirlo a 'holding midfielder'? I think Pereira can be similar (in style) to Verratti who many have touted in this thread. Perhaps not so much a ball-winner, but certainly a metronome sort of player from deep.

Jose played him there in pre-season once and he was quite impressive.
 
Blind might not be a bad option at the holding position. He's definitely got the passing range and calmness on the ball. Provided we solidify our backline and settle on a stable CB pair, I really feel we'll get the best out of him.
 
bond19821982 said:
Just like we replaced Keane with Carrick, people are going to be disappointed if we are expecting a like to like replacement. I am expecting one of Fabinho, Nzonzi, Carvalho model signings and not exactly a " Deep lying playmaker"

You can forget Weigi or Verratti - both are not happening.
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Those type of players would be like pissing money away bar N'Zonzi, we already have box to box CM's and putting some lump in there ahead of the defense who has no passing range is pointless, especially when none of our CB's can build us from the back either. Looking for a player very similar to Carrick is logical as we have no playmaker without him and it's clear as day that he elevates Pogba and Herrera's games.
 
Would love to get hold of Idrissa Gueye, a carbon copy of Kante. Don't think it will be possible to get him off Everton that easily.
 
ghagua said:
Would love to get hold of Idrissa Gueye, a carbon copy of Kante. Don't think it will be possible to get him off Everton that easily.
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Mate he can't make a single accurate pass even if his life depended on it.
 
Devil may care said:
Those type of players would be like pissing money away bar N'Zonzi, we already have box to box CM's and putting some lump in there ahead of the defense who has no passing range is pointless, especially when none of our CB's can build us from the back either. Looking for a player very similar to Carrick is logical as we have no playmaker without him and it's clear as day that he elevates Pogba and Herrera's games.
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Not really true though and Mourinho always had a preference for DMs . If the box to box midfielders can give the required passing range, I wouldn't mind a typical DM.
 
bond19821982 said:
Not really true though and Mourinho always had a preference for DMs . If the box to box midfielders can give the required passing range, I wouldn't mind a typical DM.
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They can't though, Herrera and Pogba are good final 3rd passers but neither are playmakers, and Mourinho hasn't used a pure clogger in quite some time, Herrera gives us the combative workrate in there and Pogba is developing nicely into a full #8 under Jose, add in another and the midfield becomes unbalanced, right now the midfield has two great engines but without Carrick there's no brain driving it, we need another brain, all top European teams have one.
 
I want to see us go back to the 442. Pacey wingers and 2 strikers up top. None of this "holding midfielder" bollocks. We're not Barcelona and we never will be. We're Manchester United. 442 was always the United way.

I want to see us do this...

Mkhitaryan-Schneiderlin-Pogba-Martial
Rashford-Ibrahimovic

This 4-2-3-1 is damaging us. We're wasting Pogba as a CDM.
 
Jaybomb said:
I want to see us go back to the 442. Pacey wingers and 2 strikers up top. None of this "holding midfielder" bollocks. We're not Barcelona and we never will be. We're Manchester United. 442 was always the United way.

I want to see us do this...

Mkhitaryan-Schneiderlin-Pogba-Martial
Rashford-Ibrahimovic

This 4-2-3-1 is damaging us. We're wasting Pogba as a CDM.
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Who would do the defensive work there? Schneiderlin is known to wonder off and he doesn't have that game reading or positional awareness of Carrick.

In that setup Pogba is a CDM, alongside Schneiderlin, no?
 
devilish said:
I am not acting as a dick. Im asking. Seriously mate, I've been following the guy for so much time that I find it difficult to relate to what you're saying. However yes, I may have acted as a dick about it so I apologise.

Verratti is an Italian product ie from Pescara. Prior to his arrival to PSG he was courted by Juventus (like most of Italian players anyway) but they decided not to sign him up because he's too small and frail. Juventus had their fingers burnt by another tiny player ie Sebastian Giovinco who possess great talent but kept being tossed around like a rag doll until he ended up playing in Canada.

Last summer Juventus had the chance to sign Verratti, mainly because they could afford him (selling Pogba). They passed the chance because again, they thought he's too small and frail for them. I assure you that Juventus scouts are top class and they rarely get things wrong (although there were occasions when they did). I can make a list of all the young talent they found but I doubt redcafe had the necessary bandwidth for that (ok I am exxagerating but you get the gist of it)

My knowledge about the Bundersliga is far less then that of Italian football. However from what I've read and the little I've seen Wiegl seems to be a good passer of the ball. Maybe the Bayern Munich guy can give us his review about him if he cares speaking about anything apart from Bastian.
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How did Juve turn down the chance to sign Verratti this summer? That's absolute nonsense. He's not in the market, simple as that and if he was, he'd be out of Juve's reach both financially and in terms of pull unless he specifically wants to play in Italy. The point about him being too small etc is wrong as well. He's a terrier and he's shown that in the CL as well. He'd be perfectly at home in the PL.
 
Varun said:
How did Juve turn down the chance to sign Verratti this summer? That's absolute nonsense. He's not in the market, simple as that and if he was, he'd be out of Juve's reach both financially and in terms of pull unless he specifically wants to play in Italy. The point about him being too small etc is wrong as well. He's a terrier and he's shown that in the CL as well. He'd be perfectly at home in the PL.
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It was over Italian media. I still think he'll end up at Juventus eventually because he's Italian and talented (most end up there these days). However the Italian league is far less physical then the EPL
 
Think i read Weigl is in negotiations to extend his contract. Verratti you'd think would want a move sooner rather than later. Are they Mourinho's type of midfielder, though? I don't think so. I see him more interested in the likes of N'Zonzi, William Carvalho, Krychowiak or Danilo Pereira.
 
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