The search for a holding/controlling midfielder

[Fracture90]

judge for yourself who you'd rather call "DM"

Motta

 

[devilish]

The OP specifically asks for a midfielder that controls the game, I think it's fair to say that Verratti is capable of doing so. What midfielder are you looking for next to Pogba?

First of all I am a big fan of Verratti. I've been following him since he was at Pescara. However I don't think he's the player we need

a- because he would cost us a bomb (Pogba's level)
b- he's too small for the EPL

With Pogba on board, I think we should emulate Juventus and add some workrate to it (the EPL is physically more demanding then the Serie A). Juventus worked with a world class playmaker who could do his share of defending (Pirlo), a box to box player who was physically strong and could tackle (Vidal) and Pogba

If you ask me, Id go for Weigl (Pirlo), nainggolan/Paredes (Keano/Vidal) and Pogba.

 

[Raees]

Herrera is a really nice fit next to Pogba. All that is missing is Weigl/Verratti.

 

[Devil may care]

He's very small. You can't play Verratti as a DM.

He'd probably be used deep but with someone that does the pure defensive work, which would mean Herrera back on the bench of Mourinho went got one of the Manazon's you want.

Tolisso can play as the disciplined holding midfielder and he's already done it more than once when Gonalons was out. He also has the passing to do so. The thing about him, which makes him especially for Mourinho IMO a perfect midfielder is that he's good at almost everything, while not being a jack of all trades, if that makes sense. He's defensively very good, he's good in the air and he's physically very strong. Would he be a bit restricted by playing next to Pogba? Yes, probably, but I think we should definitely try to sign him. From what I've seen of Keita it's quite similar. Both are very good going forward and their best position is as you say the box-to-box role, but Keita is defensively very good as well. Personally I still feel we can upgrade on Herrera in the box-to-box role and Herrera could play as the holding midfielder like he's done against Chelsea during van Gaal's first season (I think).

Fabinho would be a very good signing for Carrick's position in the 4-1-4-1/4-3-3. Mostly I want us to improve the quality of our midfield, since we are going to lose Carrick sooner than later and a few other player in that area need to be moved on.

I haven't watched a lot of Lyon since Fekir got inured so you'd know more about Tolisso than me, I just felt he was a bit like Herrera in that role, he could do a job but it's not playing to his strength's, same with Keita. The thing Carrick gives Pogba is freedom as Carrick doesn't go maruading out of position as it's not his game, his game is all about smart defesnive position and accurate distribution, I think that's so important for Pogba to function at his best.

I agree with your general point though, I feel if we could really do wiith 2 CM's if we are to play 4-3-3 as our regular formation, because when you go past Pogba/Herrera/Carrick the options are really poor and Carrick himself is nearly finished.

 

[Celestiale]

If you ask me, Id go for Weigl (Pirlo)

Verratti is a lot more like Pirlo, then Weigl. He is stronger as well.

 

[devilish]

He'd probably be used deep but with someone that does the pure defensive work, which would mean Herrera back on the bench of Mourinho went got one of the Manazon's you want.

If we use him that way, then we agree.

 

[Fracture90]

Herrera is a really nice fit next to Pogba. All that is missing is Weigl/Verratti.

Wiegl because he does defensive job as well, like Carrick.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

I was surprised that we didn't sign this type of player in addition to Pogba in the summer.

 

[bucky]

First of all I am a big fan of Verratti. I've been following him since he was at Pescara. However I don't think he's the player we need

a- because he would cost us a bomb (Pogba's level)
b- he's too small for the EPL

With Pogba on board, I think we should emulate Juventus and add some workrate to it (the EPL is physically more demanding then the Serie A). Juventus worked with a world class playmaker who could do his share of defending (Pirlo), a box to box player who was physically strong and could tackle (Vidal) and Pogba

If you ask me, Id go for Weigl (Pirlo), Paredes (Keano/Vidal) and Pogba.

IMO physical attributes do not matter with certain players because of their talent. Verratti is one of those players. Your argument about height makes little sense to me considering Kante's last season with Leicester. Kante has a different role in Chelsea's line-up, but he's nonetheless playing well.

I agree about Weigl, he'd be perfect for Carrick's role. Paredes on the other hand isn't someone like Keane or Vidal IMO.

 

[devilish]

Verratti is a lot more like Pirlo, then Weigl. He is stronger as well.

Seriously mate, its not the case. Verratti is not very tough. He's 5ft5 FFS

 

[Raees]

Seriously mate, its not the case. Verratti is not very tough. He's 5ft5 FFS

Height doesn't equate to toughness. Come on mate you're better than that.. sort of opinion I'd expect an old english coach to come out with in the 70's.

Have you seen his performances v Chelsea/Barca.. more than capable of dominating a midfield battle with physicality. Keano wasn't the tallest either and yet Viera would shit himself.

 

[devilish]

IMO physical attributes do not matter with certain players because of their talent. Verratti is one of those players. Your argument about height makes little sense to me considering Kante's last season with Leicester. Kante has a different role in Chelsea's line-up, but he's nonetheless playing well.

I agree about Weigl, he'd be perfect for Carrick's role. Paredes on the other hand isn't someone like Keane or Vidal IMO.

Kante is build like a tank. Verratti is smaller and much frailer.

I think that a midfield made up of Weigl, Paredes and Pogba could work. However you might be right. Another player I like is Naingollan. He's quite a fighter and can drop deep and attack. I also wonder if Drinkwater can do the trick. He's a local lad and he'll give his heart to the team.

 

[Fracture90]

Kante is build like a tank. Verratti is smaller and much frailer.

I think that a midfield made up of Weigl, Paredes and Pogba could work. However you might be right. Another player I like is Naingollan. He's quite a fighter and can drop deep and attack. I also wonder if Drinkwater can do the trick. He's a local lad and he'll give his heart to the team.

Gotta admit from what I've seen, he has a nice touch and he's got good anticipation defensively.

 

[devilish]

Height doesn't equate to toughness. Come on mate you're better than that.. sort of opinion I'd expect an old english coach to come out with in the 70's.

Have you seen his performances v Chelsea/Barca.. more than capable of dominating a midfield battle with physicality. Keano wasn't the tallest either and yet Viera would shit himself.

Keane is 5ft10, Verratti is 5ft5 and very lightly build. Verratti was not build to be a Keane. He relies on his passing not on his strength. Can you play Scholes as DM? The same thing about Verratti (Scholes is actually tougher then him)

 

[Celestiale]

Kante is build like a tank. Verratti is smaller and much frailer.

And Weigl is built like a toothpick. Seriously, talking about strength, but pleading for Weigl is really contradictory. He is probably the weakest (good) DM around in world football

 

[Fracture90]

And Weigl is built like a toothpick. Seriously, talking about strength, but pleading for Weigl is really contradictory. He is probably the weakest (good) DM around in world football

Tho Wiegl can work on his physique and mass whilst with Veratti is not that simple.

 

[Celestiale]

Tho Wiegl can work on his physique and mass whilst with Veratti is not that simple.

Looking at their disposition, Verratti is a lot more likely to grow muscles. If you look like Weigl at that age you're never gonna be a strong player

 

[devilish]

And Weigl is built like a toothpick. Seriously, talking about strength, but pleading for Weigl is really contradictory. He is probably the weakest (good) DM around in world football

Let me be clear. I won't have any complaints if we play Verratti alongside someone like Vidal or Kante + Pogba. I still think he'll be too expensive + there's a risk that he'll do a Darmian and simply don't adapt to the EPL fast and physical game but that's all.

However we'll be mad to play him as a DM. Pirlo was a superior player in every sense of the way and he still needed Gattuso to do the donkey work for him. Carrick can cover the DM role but he's 6ft3 and had better positioning then Verratti can ever dream of having

 

[Raees]

Keane is 5ft10, Verratti is 5ft5 and very lightly build. Verratti was not build to be a Keane. He relies on his passing not on his strength. Can you play Scholes as DM? The same thing about Verratti (Scholes is actually tougher then him)

Verratti can actually tackle. He has much better defensive reading of the game than Scholes. Davids was 5ft 7, Nobby Stiles was 5.5, as was Makelele.

 

[Fracture90]

Looking at their disposition, Verratti is a lot more likely to grow muscles. If you look like Weigl at that age you're never gonna be a strong player

Mate Wiegl is only 19 and he has grown a lot in past few years, he's yet to bulk up being 187 cm now. Veratti is done with growth, he's 165 cm and gonna stay like that.

 

[devilish]

Verratti can actually tackle. He has much better defensive reading of the game than Scholes. Davids was 5ft 7, Nobby Stiles was 5.5, as was Makelele.

Davids and Makalele were build like a tank and had been groomed to be a DM for all their life. I don't remember Nobby but people were shorter in the 50s-60s then they are now + my grandpa used to say that Nobby was as blind as a bat and he used to eat midfielders for breakfast.

Verratti is not a DM, in the same way that Rooney is not a CM. Not every midfielder who can pass the ball is cut for the role (and that include Pirlo who was a much better player and he still had to rely on Gattuso to do the donkey work). Carrick did it because his positioning was world class + he was a big lad himself. You don't push a 6ft2 person away so easily. Also he'll cost a bomb + he's currently struggling at PSG

Id say lets go for Weigl + a box to box midfielder like Drinkwater or Naingollan. They would cost us less, they are more more suited for the EPL and together they provide the ideal mixture of characteristics for Pogba to shine. The last thing I want is to see us spend some 60m on Verratti only to end up playing Fellaini in DM again because Verratti is being thrown around like some rag doll and we need somebody to protect him.

 

[bucky]

I haven't watched a lot of Lyon since Fekir got inured so you'd know more about Tolisso than me, I just felt he was a bit like Herrera in that role, he could do a job but it's not playing to his strength's, same with Keita. The thing Carrick gives Pogba is freedom as Carrick doesn't go maruading out of position as it's not his game, his game is all about smart defesnive position and accurate distribution, I think that's so important for Pogba to function at his best.

I agree with your general point though, I feel if we could really do wiith 2 CM's if we are to play 4-3-3 as our regular formation, because when you go past Pogba/Herrera/Carrick the options are really poor and Carrick himself is nearly finished.

In Tolisso's case I don't think that's true and I also think Herrera was better in that Chelsea game than just doing a job. Tolisso is very good in that role, it's just not his best. Positioning, passing and defensive contribution are all there. Most of all he seems to be intelligent and is always improving. IMO he's been Lyon's most consistent performer, while being fairly young. I think that's always a decent indication of the development a player is going to make. To be honest I almost don't care, how he fits in, I just want us to sign him, if there's a chance. I feel similarly about Saul, Koke, Verratti and Weigl.

Mate Weigl is only 19 and he has grown a lot in past few years, he's yet to bulk up being 187 cm now. Veratti is done with growth, he's 165 cm and gonna stay like that.

He's 21.

 

[devilish]

In Tolisso's case I don't think that's true and I also think Herrera was better in that Chelsea game than just doing a job. Tolisso is very good in that role, it's just not his best. Positioning, passing and defensive contribution are all there. Most of all he seems to be intelligent and is always improving. IMO he's been Lyon's most consistent performer, while being fairly young. I think that's always a decent indication of the development a player is going to make. To be honest I almost don't care, how he fits in, I just want us to sign him, if there's a chance. I feel similarly about Saul, Koke, Verratti and Weigl.



He's 21.

And he's 6ft2 ie same size of Carrick. Put a terrier in midfield who would either play like a man possessed because he's a local lad (ex Drinkwater) or/and is a bit loco (Naingollan) and you'll have the ideal CM. Pogba will be given the licence to do whatever he wants as he was allowed to do at Juventus and our creativity spark will get a boost.

 

[Celestiale]

Mate Wiegl is only 19 and he has grown a lot in past few years, he's yet to bulk up being 187 cm now. Veratti is done with growth, he's 165 cm and gonna stay like that.

He is 21, and heigths doesn't have too much to do with strength. Anyway, both won't ever become what you call a strong footballer. I myself don't care, Carrick isn't strong either, and it workes with him in midfield. I was just mentioning Weigls frailty, because the other one was arguing against Verratti because of his strengths and next thing pleading for Weigl, who is even weaker. Doesn't fit together

 

[Fracture90]

He's 21.

Goddamn you're right! Why was i deluded he's 19 IDK.

 

[sunama]

This is turning into a funny discussion.
It seems that most of you are concerned with the amount of muscle mass on a human being rather than their skill with the ball.
Surely you should've learned your lesson after Memphis muscled up? Muscle means nothing....its all about the kill.
Messi, arguably the greatest footballer of all time is about 5' 7''. And how tall was Maradona?

Are we hiring for WWE or for MUFC?

 

[Celestiale]

This is turning into a funny discussion.
It seems that most of you are concerned with the amount of muscle mass on a human being rather than their skill with the ball.
Surely you should've learned your lesson after Memphis muscled up? Muscle means nothing....its all about the kill.
Messi, arguably the greatest footballer of all time is about 5' 7''. And how tall was Maradona?

Are we hiring for WWE or for MUFC?

+ 1

 

[Fracture90]

He is 21, and heigths doesn't have too much to do with strength. Anyway, both won't ever become what you call a strong footballer. I myself don't care, Carrick isn't strong either, and it workes with him in midfield. I was just mentioning Weigls frailty, because the other one was arguing against Verratti because of his strengths and next thing pleading for Weigl, who is even weaker. Doesn't fit together

Of course height has everything to do with strength mate. FFS you won't out muscle a 187 cm player that easy as you will a 165 cm player.

Also as a DM it helps to have few extra cm of height for aerial balls.

 

[devilish]

This is turning into a funny discussion.
It seems that most of you are concerned with the amount of muscle mass on a human being rather than their skill with the ball.
Surely you should've learned your lesson after Memphis muscled up? Muscle means nothing....its all about the kill.
Messi, arguably the greatest footballer of all time is about 5' 7''. And how tall was Maradona?

Are we hiring for WWE or for MUFC?

Are depay and messi dm ? Can you see them play in that role?

 

[devilish]

He is 21, and heigths doesn't have too much to do with strength. Anyway, both won't ever become what you call a strong footballer. I myself don't care, Carrick isn't strong either, and it workes with him in midfield. I was just mentioning Weigls frailty, because the other one was arguing against Verratti because of his strengths and next thing pleading for Weigl, who is even weaker. Doesn't fit together

Carrick is 6ft2 and hes a strong lad

 

[Skills]

We don't use the one we have available (Carrick) and froze out an all time great German one at the start of the season, for feck knows what reason. Clearly not that big of a priority.

 

[Devil may care]

In Tolisso's case I don't think that's true and I also think Herrera was better in that Chelsea game than just doing a job. Tolisso is very good in that role, it's just not his best. Positioning, passing and defensive contribution are all there. Most of all he seems to be intelligent and is always improving. IMO he's been Lyon's most consistent performer, while being fairly young. I think that's always a decent indication of the development a player is going to make. To be honest I almost don't care, how he fits in, I just want us to sign him, if there's a chance. I feel similarly about Saul, Koke, Verratti and Weigl.

Gotcha mate, I just can't help but feel players like Tolisso and Naby Keita are best when not shackled. I'd be all for adding either as a box to box to compete with Ander for the 3rd CM spot, but I'd still like a really disciplined holder as well, one that isn't cut out for charging up the field at any given moment and whose primary skill set isn't hampered by having to sit. If we are to go to a full time 3 man midfield we definitely need to upgrade Fellaini and Schneiderlin as well as replace Carrick, so there's room for 2 IMO.

We don't use the one we have available (Carrick) and froze out an all time great German one at the start of the season, for feck knows what reason. Clearly not that big of a priority.

Jose has explained why he doesn't play Carrick too often, he's not fit enough, evidenced by the fact he got injured the first time he played back to back games this season. Schwerinsteiger is unfit, injury prone and well past his best.

If we use him that way, then we agree.

I thought we did agree until I saw posts with names like Drinkwater and Nainggolan in them lol.

 

[Celestiale]

Of course height has everything to do with strength mate. FFS you won't out muscle a 187 cm player that easy as you will a 165 cm player.

Also as a DM it helps to have few extra cm of height for aerial balls.

Nope. It hasn't. Not necessarily. There are more then enough weak tall players out there, and more then enough small strong ones.

Carrick is 6ft2 and hes a strong lad

Nope.

 

[Raees]

Of course height has everything to do with strength mate. FFS you won't out muscle a 187 cm player that easy as you will a 165 cm player.

Also as a DM it helps to have few extra cm of height for aerial balls.

Messi is harder to knock off the ball than Cristiano so how does that work?

Lower Centre of gravity ..

 

[Fracture90]

Nope. It hasn't. Not necessarily. There are more then enough weak tall players out there, and more then enough small strong ones

It has lots to do with it. It has also lots to do with your frame, genetics, muscle fibre and ton of stuff, but generally speaking taller people tend to be stronger than shorter people.

Messi is harder to knock off the ball than Cristiano so how does that work?

Lower Centre of gravity ..

Low centre of gravity plus the fact that he's a winger constantly running at people instead of being a sitting duck and wrestling people when you're a DMF im fekin EPL.

Yeah and his HGH therapy helped surely.

 

[TonyMarshall]

Jorginho at Napoli.

 

[devilish]

Gotcha mate, I just can't help but feel players like Tolisso and Naby Keita are best when not shackled. I'd be all for adding either as a box to box to compete with Ander for the 3rd CM spot, but I'd still like a really disciplined holder as well, one that isn't cut out for charging up the field at any given moment and whose primary skill set isn't hampered by having to sit. If we are to go to a full time 3 man midfield we definitely need to upgrade Fellaini and Schneiderlin as well as replace Carrick, so there's room for 2 IMO.



Jose has explained why he doesn't play Carrick too often, he's not fit enough, evidenced by the fact he got injured the first time he played back to back games this season. Schwerinsteiger is unfit, injury prone and well past his best.



I thought we did agree until I saw posts with names like Drinkwater and Nainggolan in them lol.

Carrick was a sublime player who had the passing ability of a top quality playmaker and the physique and positioning of top rated Makalele like defensive midfielder. We also had Paul Scholes whom, despite not being a great tackler, he was the most intelligent midfielder of his era. We wont be able to emulate all that in 2 CM.

Someone like Wiegl or Verratti can cover the playmaker role, while Pogba can provide some of the attacking qualities of Scholes. In some ways he's a hybrid of Giggs and Scholes. He's got that dribbling skills that Giggs had and the ability to do something unpredictable. On the other hand he has Scholes ability to score from outside the box although he lacks his great passing ability and intelligence. Pogba is so unique that no one exactly knows what's his best position. What is certain is that he's wasted in a deep role

Either way we'll need someone who provides the physicality. Fellaini can cover the role but he's too slow which means either Pogba or Weigl will have to do the leg work for him. Nainggolan and Drinkwater are more suitable. They got decent passing rate (around 80%), they cover plenty of inches of pitch and they are great tacklers. They will allow the deep lying playmaker to focus in controlling the ball with their passes + Pogba to move forward and cause havoc upfront. Nainggolan has quite a nasty shot himself. Last year he scored 9 goals between club and country which is quite significant. This year he already scored 2 goals in 19 matches

 

[Devil may care]

Carrick was a sublime player who had the passing ability of a top quality playmaker and the physique and positioning of top rated Makalele like defensive midfielder. We also had Paul Scholes whom, despite not being a great tackler, he was the most intelligent midfielder of his era. We wont be able to emulate all that in 2 CM.

Someone like Wiegl or Verratti can cover the playmaker role, while Pogba can provide some of the attacking qualities of Scholes. In some ways he's a hybrid of Giggs and Scholes. He's got that dribbling skills that Giggs had and the ability to do something unpredictable. On the other hand he has Scholes ability to score from outside the box although he lacks his great passing ability and intelligence. Pogba is so unique that no one exactly knows what's his best position. What is certain is that he's wasted in a deep role

Either way we'll need someone who provides the physicality. Fellaini can cover the role but he's too slow which means either Pogba or Weigl will have to do the leg work for him. Nainggolan and Drinkwater are more suitable. They got decent passing rate (around 80%), they cover plenty of inches of pitch and they are great tacklers. They will allow the deep lying playmaker to focus in controlling the ball with their passes + Pogba to move forward and cause havoc upfront. Nainggolan has quite a nasty shot himself. Last year he scored 9 goals between club and country which is quite significant. This year he already scored 2 goals in 19 matches

I personally have never considered physicality one of Carrick's strengths, he has always struggled with high pressing teams and was hardly a powerful athlete, his size had very little to do with how well he plays his position.

I don't think Nainggolan and Drinkwater bring anything Herrera can't do and wouldn't be nbeeded if we bought Weigl. If Verratti came I think a DM like Fabinho or N'Zonzi would be suitable, they wouldn't nessicarily play deeper but they'd operate like Motta does with him.

 

[devilish]

I personally have never considered physicality one of Carrick's strengths, he has always struggled with high pressing teams and was hardly a powerful athlete, his size had very little to do with how well he plays his position.

I don't think Nainggolan and Drinkwater bring anything Herrera can't do and wouldn't be nbeeded if we bought Weigl. If Verratti came I think a DM like Fabinho or N'Zonzi would be suitable, they wouldn't nessicarily play deeper but they'd operate like Motta does with him.

Its an underrated characteristic but at 6ft2 he was strong enough. At times SAF would help the midfield by putting Fletcher in the team to cover the 'Drinkwater/Nainggollan' role. He also like playing Valencia on the right too whose quite strong

Drinkwater and Nainggolan are physically stronger and better tacklers then Herrera. There will be times when a CM midfield with Weigl-Herrera-Pogba will do. However there will be games when we would need more steel and more workrate then what these players can give

 

[Chorley1974]

I think Blind could do this in the short term, but we need a medium to long term replacement.