The relative strength of the Premier League

dmode said:
I don't know... I think quality decreases with time where money is due to the fact that there are more mercenaries than real good players... it's all about speculation and agents and shit... personally i hate it!
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this.

Facts:
1) The last time that 4 english clubs achieved the CL quarters was 10 years ago.
2) Real Madrid flopped big after winning 4 CLs in the last 5 years and came at the end of their cycle.
3) Bayern is not as strong as 3/4 years ago and German football have showed to be really mediocre.
4) The best clubs in this competition are Barcelona and Juventus with City really close but they need to prove it becouse they have done nothing yet in this competition
5) where is the news that Epl have the biggest revenues between the top leagues? It’s a clear fact since about 15 years or something
 
roonster09 said:
Do you think losing Pogba to Madrid or City is same? I would rather lose players to foreign clubs than the team above us.
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See I don’t. When the PL was the best United were genuine contenders for the CL every year. A better League helps us to raise our level and a competitive league create a better product.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
See I don’t. When the PL was the best United were genuine contenders for the CL every year. A better League helps us to raise our level and a competitive league create a better product.
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Yeah, better league will raise the quality of teams which helps in europe. No wonder Madrid and Barca dominated Europe as both kept pushing each other.
 
It is probably the strongest in the world near the top but after years of saying European performances do not matter at all Wumminator should never be allowed to use CL results as evidence of anything.
 
dmode said:
I don't know... I think quality decreases with time where money is due to the fact that there are more mercenaries than real good players... it's all about speculation and agents and shit... personally i hate it!
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Yes, that wealth really hurt the multilple CL winning Barcelona and Real Madrid!

And as we see now it’s hurt the PL hugely, it’s not like all that money has seen a massive increase in quality in the English coaching and youth setups, leading to outstanding results at pretty much every youth age group...

And how Man City’s billions havent one of the most envied youth set ups in Europe...

What you wrote is hubristic nonsense based on emotional bias. If you said a leagues -integrity- fails over time you
might have an argument.
 
Sarni said:
It is probably the strongest in the world near the top but after years of saying European performances do not matter at all Wumminator should never be allowed to use CL results as evidence of anything.
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I’m not at all. But those who do now obviously can see what I’ve been talking about for years.

Let me get this straight, I said when I started this thread that the Premier League has the strongest league and I was mocked. Laughed at. Called a WUM. I was told that Bayern, Barce, Real, Dortmund and even Atlético would walk this league easily.

Less than three full seasons later now it’s an accepted fact. This thread was used as an example to laugh at me. Well it won’t be any longer, people are bumping it now and making the same points I was.

I won’t gloat, I just hope the people who called me a WUM now reassess what they were saying
 
It’s too early to talk about cycles and stuff. English clubs needs to do it regularly like they were between 2004 and 2009.

It helps that Wenger and Arsenal are not around in Europe to lose constantly.
 
Wumminator said:
I’m not at all. But those who do now obviously can see what I’ve been talking about for years.

Let me get this straight, I said when I started this thread that the Premier League has the strongest league and I was mocked. Laughed at. Called a WUM. I was told that Bayern, Barce, Real, Dortmund and even Atlético would walk this league easily.

Less than three full seasons later now it’s an accepted fact. This thread was used as an example to laugh at me. Well it won’t be any longer, people are bumping it now and making the same points I was.

I won’t gloat, I just hope the people who called me a WUM now reassess what they were saying
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You were wrong though. The big clubs in England were in a bad shape back then, including City who had an aging squad. A league won by Leicester is nowhere near being the strongest in the world. Now, things have changed. Leicester 15/16 would struggle to finish top 4 in 18/19.
 
Wumminator said:
I’m not at all. But those who do now obviously can see what I’ve been talking about for years.

Let me get this straight, I said when I started this thread that the Premier League has the strongest league and I was mocked. Laughed at. Called a WUM. I was told that Bayern, Barce, Real, Dortmund and even Atlético would walk this league easily.

Less than three full seasons later now it’s an accepted fact. This thread was used as an example to laugh at me. Well it won’t be any longer, people are bumping it now and making the same points I was.

I won’t gloat, I just hope the people who called me a WUM now reassess what they were saying
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You were laughed at because you were completely wrong at the time as proven by English teams failures in Europe whenever they came across those teams, which you tried to explain by PL teams being exhausted from having to play Crystal Palace and Newcastle on a weekly basis.

The fact that PL top teams have improved enough to deliver respectable CL results three years later does not make you right three years ago.
 
The top 6 in the premier League have improved hugely since the Leicester title win and are now as good or better than the top teams in other European leagues. 4 or 5 years ago they were clearly interior.

The other 14 teams are pretty woeful though both in quality and in the style of football played. Just consider Burnley finished 7th last year without even scoring a goal a game on average.
 
I don't think UCL winner by nationality is a place to tell whether the league is best but more team from domestically and consistency is important to analyze which league is best. I feel like EPL has a lot of better team, spreading evenly quality over the league. There's the reason why EPL is the only league that got 4 teams in quarter-final three times, not even La Liga, Serie A or Bundesliga has managed that and were first to have 5 teams involved in the round of 16 last season and could have another 5 again in round of 16 next season if Chelsea qualify for UCL via Europa league. EPL had 3 teams back to back in the semi-final so 9 semi-finalist come from PL in just 3 years, they are looking likely to get 3 teams involved in the semi-final again, that's more record than any other top 5 league combined who had 3 teams in the semi-final. EPL had a more different winner than anyone and had 7 different teams involved in a round of 16 over the last 2 seasons since 2016.


So, EPL hasn't had the best team that can challenge Barca/Madrid especially having Ronaldo and Messi, they have advantages over any Serie A, EPL, Bundesliga. Messi and Ronaldo are coming to the end of the era in the 2020s, dominance is up for grab, PL is more likely to take it back, Serie A looks strong too but needs consistency.


La Liga was best for 5 years after Bayern's UCL winner because of the many teams La Liga represented went on to win European trophies and dominate Europe consistently.
So if Bayern dominates UCL for 5 years and winning 5 UCL titles in a row, would any of you consider Bundesliga to be the best league because of Bayern? I'd consider them to be the best league if they had Dortmund, Schalke, Bayer, etc to win European trophies and reach semi-final and finalist every season for 5 years or even 3 years. One team dominating Europeans trophies doesn't mean their league is best because they don't have other teams can dominate Europe. Porto can dominate the Europeans for years but still won't consider their league to be best, they need Benfica, Sporting, etc to win trophies, reach semi-final/finalist consistently to back up a statement regarding of whether their league is best in Europe or not.


So, if EPL wins UCL this year, I still wouldn't consider EPL to be the best league because of one team or just one season but EPL needs to have more teams of dominating Europe consistently to be considered as the best league in Europe.
 
sglowrider said:
Best? One consistently fails in Finals and bring home no silverware; and the other zero silverware to his CV. It's just branding till they win something.

Pleasing to the eye is one thing but they need to deliver success too. As dour Jose is, his Porto and Inter teams did beat the big boys when he won the CLs.
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Hence why I said arguable. Success is relative. Klopp took a Dortmund side that wasn’t really anywhere near challenging for the league to back to back titles. He’s not quite there with Liverpool yet in terms of a trophy but they were also a team that was absolutely nowhere near a league title but he’s got them to both that and a CL final.

Same with Poch at Spurs, they’ve regularly been a side that has been consistently off the pace of the top 4 but he’s turned them into a club that is a top 4 regular and if they didn’t have an absolute brain fart in recent weeks would be right up there as challengers (who’d have thought that no investment would come and bite them in the arse the deeper into the season we go).

It’s obviously difficult to judge managers and players as everyone has different variables which they judge them on. Some think you can only have success with trophies, I think you can be successful in elevating teams to a different level, something which both managers have done. Trophies will be the cherry on top.

If Klopp or Poch went to a Barca or Madrid side they’d easily win a trophy.
 
Wumminator said:
I’m not at all. But those who do now obviously can see what I’ve been talking about for years.

Let me get this straight, I said when I started this thread that the Premier League has the strongest league and I was mocked. Laughed at. Called a WUM. I was told that Bayern, Barce, Real, Dortmund and even Atlético would walk this league easily.

Less than three full seasons later now it’s an accepted fact. This thread was used as an example to laugh at me. Well it won’t be any longer, people are bumping it now and making the same points I was.

I won’t gloat, I just hope the people who called me a WUM now reassess what they were saying
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Jesus. If someone said in 2005 than Cristiano Ronaldo is the best player in the world, he would have laughed at. In 2008, it was an accepted fact.

If someone in 2014 said that Donaldo Trump is the president of US, people would have called him an idiot. In 2017, he was the president of US.

Let's not change facts and pretend that you predicted EPL to become the top league in Europe (to be fair, many people would have predicted it, with the money it has, it was a matter of time), you were saying back then that it was (at that time) the best league in the world, which was laughably wrong. Now being the best in the world is irrelevant in that aspect, when the thread was made, it was wrong, and so people laughed with you.
 
Revan said:
Jesus. If someone said in 2005 than Cristiano Ronaldo is the best player in the world, he would have laughed at. In 2008, it was an accepted fact.

If someone in 2014 said that Donaldo Trump is the president of US, people would have called him an idiot. In 2017, he was the president of US.

Let's not change facts and pretend that you predicted EPL to become the top league in Europe (to be fair, many people would have predicted it, with the money it has, it was a matter of time), you were saying back then that it was (at that time) the best league in the world, which was laughably wrong. Now being the best in the world is irrelevant in that aspect, when the thread was made, it was wrong, and so people laughed with you.
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Exactly. He wasn’t saying it would be the best in 2-3 years, he was saying it was already the best due to quality of mid-table teams. It was kind of a given that top teams would catch up within 2-3 years.

Truth is the quality of bottom and mid-tier teams has regressed if anything, there are few good teams below top 6 this year but the standard of top 6 has significantly increased through development and investment hence better European performances.

Funny thing is he ignored the quality of La Liga because it was dominated by two teams. Now that PL is similar with two teams running away it does not seem to be a problem.
 
Revan said:
But English teams have an abysmal scouting policy. I mean, can it be more abysmal than it has been?

The money isn't king. If that was Atletico wouldn't win their league 2 years ago and reach UCL final, or fight with Barca this year. Or Leicester winning EPL. Money helps - a lot - but is only part of what makes a top team. There are a lot of other factors there.

One other thing is that EPL clubs spend more, but then La Liga/Bundesliga teams get a bunch of players from their academies for free. With English players being shit, and with English teams being more interested in signing the newest European flop than developing their own players, that compensates for the difference on money.
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Revan said:
Let's not change facts and pretend that you predicted EPL to become the top league in Europe (to be fair, many people would have predicted it, with the money it has, it was a matter of time), you were saying back then that it was (at that time) the best league in the world, which was laughably wrong. Now being the best in the world is irrelevant in that aspect, when the thread was made, it was wrong, and so people laughed with you.
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Again, just quoting to see some shifting of the goalposts IMO.
 
Wumminator said:
I can not keep repeating myself enough over and over again but again

A) this is mostly a recent thing, we are not looking over the last decade really

B) I'm not interested in talking about the top elite teams. Rather the teams that make up the league.

We are living in a significant time people, this will be an important thread to look back on in three years when the premier leagues financial gap is even bigger. At the moment I forsee a massive change in football because the finances in the prem are just getting out of control.
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Revan said:
Maybe, maybe not. We have been saying it for the last 3 years or so, and top English teams are still goddamn awful. Each and every one of them have more money than 3 years ago, but they get repeatedly bitch slapped not only from Barca and Bayern, but even from the likes of PSG, City or dare I say Wolfsburg.

Obviously, EPL teams will get richer, but so will get the other teams too. Just cause EPL gets more money, that won't change the fact that Madrid, Barca, Bayern, PSG and co are getting more money too. All of those teams can spend as much as us, in addition to having quality young players from their leagues that they can get for free/cheap, something that doesn't exist in England because quality young players are very rare and cost a bomb.
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This is a real interesting opinion from three years ago when I literally say that this thread will be interesting in three years but apparently I was wrong.
 
Wumminator said:
This is a real interesting opinion from three years ago when I literally say that this thread will be interesting in three years but apparently I was wrong.
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You were saying that EPL was the best league at that time. It being the best league now is irrelevant, it doesn't change the past.

This is from your OP:


Wumminator said:
In this thread I am going to discuss the strength of the premier league. I don’t care if you think I am WUMming, I don’t care if you think I am completely wrong, please don’t post in here if you’re not going to contribute well.

I see a lot of people saying we have a weaker league now than

a) Five years ago

b) Other leagues

I think we couldn’t be further from the truth. We actually have the strongest league I think I’ve ever seen right now, the quality is immense. From players like Lukaku, Butland and Cabaye being regulars in bottom ten sides to teams like Arsenal, Chelsea and United struggling while being filled with star studded players.


For this post I will compare the 5th, 11th and 15th team in the league (Why not 10th? Because Chelsea are there and I don’t think there performance this year is a true reflection of where they should be, even though it does suggest the league is strong)
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You were totally wrong back then. EPL improving compared to other leagues and being the top league now, doesn't change the fact that it wasn't the top league back then. It is like me saying that Mbappe is a better player than Ronaldo now, be laughed it, Ronaldo will inevitably regress in the next 3-5 years while Mbappe will improve, and then proclaiming how a big genius I am seeing what others couldn't see.
 
Treble said:
Nah, this explanation is unconvincing. Can you see Celta winning La Liga? For obvious reasons, a one off season like Leicester's has been impossible in La Liga.
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That's not much of an argument to be fair. You couldn't see Leicester winning the Premier League either, until it actually happened. Such a thing was regarded as "impossible" for "obvious reasons".
 
Oh, and captain Hindsight, I also predicted that EPL will become the top league in the world eventually. Here is in reply to amolbhatia50k post in the same thread (from 2016):

amolbhatia50k said:
I am hopeful that over the next 1-3 years the PL actually makes use of it's wealth and the top teams (hopefully United the most) rise as they really should. Would make for a better league if you have 3 proper top class teams.
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Revan said:
It will inevitably happen. It is almost impossible to foresee top English clubs run forever by imbeciles.

However, the problem is that to compete in Europe all the time, you need more than that. EPL is richer than the rest, but United/City/Chelsea aren't richer than Barca/Real/Bayern/PSG, so to be able to beat them (consistently), we also need to produce better players and/or have better scouting.
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The second part has yet to happen actually. EPL clubs went 2-0 this season against those clubs I mentioned, but last year EPL clubs lost every tie against top clubs, despite the progress.
 
Siorac said:
That's not much of an argument to be fair. You couldn't see Leicester winning the Premier League either, until it actually happened. Such a thing was regarded as "impossible" for "obvious reasons".
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Disagree. Barca and Real were too strong in that period to allow for some counterpart of Leicester in La Liga to win it there. And precisely that's the point: the top English teams in that period weren't particularly strong, which made it possible for Leicester to win it. Arsenal, Spurs, City, United, Liverpool and Chelsea finished respectively on 71, 70, 66, 66, 60 and 50 pts. The best of the current top 6 clubs won just 71 pts!
 
Treble said:
Disagree. Barca and Real were too strong in that period to allow for some counterpart of Leicester in La Liga to win it there. And precisely that's the point: the top English teams in that period weren't particularly strong, which made it possible for Leicester to win it. Arsenal, Spurs, City, United, Liverpool and Chelsea finished respectively on 71, 70, 66, 66, 60 and 50 pts. The best of the current top 6 clubs won just 71 pts!
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But that was one freak season in that regard. Before that, Chelsea had won the league with 87 points; the season after, Chelsea won it with 93 points.

My point here is that the simultaneous collapse of all the top teams in 2016 was still very unexpected even if we did see that the top teams were poorer overall than before. Nobody expected that NONE of these teams would get less than 80 points because they weren't that bad (as evidenced by Chelsea bouncing back immediately). But for example, Leicester's 80 points would have been enough for second place in last season's La Liga, ahead of Atlético Madrid and Real Madrid!
 
2015-16 was a weird season in which ALL top teams struggled for different reasons. Something like this almost never happens which is why it's still impossible to believe that Leicester won the title.
 
Siorac said:
But that was one freak season in that regard. Before that, Chelsea had won the league with 87 points; the season after, Chelsea won it with 93 points.

My point here is that the simultaneous collapse of all the top teams in 2016 was still very unexpected even if we did see that the top teams were poorer overall than before. Nobody expected that NONE of these teams would get less than 80 points because they weren't that bad (as evidenced by Chelsea bouncing back immediately). But for example, Leicester's 80 points would have been enough for second place in last season's La Liga, ahead of Atlético Madrid and Real Madrid!
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It was a freak season but the signs were there that the top teams in England were not particularly good. Are you arguing the opposite - that they were great but just unlucky in Europe? It wasn't a coincidence that the Spanish teams were winning everything and the English ones struggled to reach the quarter finals of the CL. Chelsea might have won the PL with 87 pts but got embarassed at home from 10 man PSG - and it's not like they were unlucky in that game. If anything, the fact that that Chelsea team managed to win 87 pts indicates that the league wasn't great at the time.
 
Treble said:
It was a freak season but the signs were there that the top teams in England were not particularly good. Are you arguing the opposite - that they were great but just unlucky in Europe? It wasn't a coincidence that the Spanish teams were winning everything and the English ones struggled to reach the quarter finals of the CL. Chelsea might have won the PL with 87 pts but got embarassed at home from 10 man PSG - and it's not like they were unlucky in that game. If anything, the fact that that Chelsea team managed to win 87 pts indicates that the league wasn't great at the time.
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I'm arguing that Leicester winning the league was an absolute freak occurrence and while the league and specifically its top teams were weaker than before (or after), on the whole they weren't anywhere near as bad as that season suggests.

They were behind the other European top teams for sure.
 
marktan said:
Nah it's cycles. English teams have been rebuilding since the start of the 10s, coupled with the rise of City and Spurs.

Real and Bayern have come to the end of their cycles, they need to rebuild. Barca have done well by buying well continously throughout their success.

The top 6 in the PL are the strongest top 6 in the world imo, but despite that Barca could beat any of the English teams on their day.
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You think Barca needs to be "on their day" to beat a top English team? I'd say they'd be favourites against any English team except maybe City, which would be 50/50. And if they actually played in the PL they'd be even more ahead of the rest of the top 6 because of their squad depth.

Maybe we just have different definitions of what "on their day" means, but personally I would use that for something like: "on their day Roma can beat Juventus".
 
Saffron said:
You think Barca needs to be "on their day" to beat a top English team? I'd say they'd be favourites against any English team except maybe City, which would be 50/50. And if they actually played in the PL they'd be even more ahead of the rest of the top 6 because of their squad depth.

Maybe we just have different definitions of what "on their day" means, but personally I would use that for something like: "on their day Roma can beat Juventus".
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I don't think so. You have to remember that the Premier League has more teams that are capable of taking points off Barcelona than in La Liga. All of the top six are good enough to beat the majority of teams that compete in the Champions League. I would not say that is the case for La Liga at the moment.

You only have to look at the current European competitions: Four teams in the Champions League Quarterfinals and Chelsea are favourites for the Europa League. Arsenal should also overturn their bad result. I don't think it is even certain that Barcelona would be at the top of the Premier League - they would be up there, but Liverpool and City currently have some high points totals.

Also if you took a long term view, you could also argue that those top six would react to what Barcelona are doing as they would play them every year - after all they have the money to compete unlike in La Liga where it is only Real Madrid.
 
Sarni said:
2015-16 was a weird season in which ALL top teams struggled for different reasons. Something like this almost never happens which is why it's still impossible to believe that Leicester won the title.
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I think the discussion before was that the top teams was not that strong and that the title would be open to get. I had some crazy hope Van Gaal would be able to do it (win the league) even though we had played terrible under his first season and I had little faith in him. We started alright in terms of getting results, but it just got worse and worse up to the point in which we got Rashford in. City had a really dire year and Arsenal just could not win anything and the same with Spurs really.
 
I don't get why some people here are dismissing the current strength of the PL based on the past of five years or so.

I think most people are in agreement that Spain were stronger at the top end of the league's.

Now though, I think we are seeing a turning point and I expect the PL to be the dominant league for the foreseeable future.

The league has much more strength in depth compared to other leagues also.

You two absolute top sides in City and Liverpool. Imagine if United as well can kick on. Though I think we are a far ways off that yet.
 
Saffron said:
You think Barca needs to be "on their day" to beat a top English team? I'd say they'd be favourites against any English team except maybe City, which would be 50/50. And if they actually played in the PL they'd be even more ahead of the rest of the top 6 because of their squad depth.

Maybe we just have different definitions of what "on their day" means, but personally I would use that for something like: "on their day Roma can beat Juventus".
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In the PL over the length of a season I'd expect Barca to be top or challenging yes.

By 'on their day' I meant more if they turn up, because they're good enough to beat any of the English teams, but they've struggled in Europe over the last 3 seasons. I think they'd comfortably beat us but I can see any of Spurs, Pool or City nullifying their attack and scoring against them. All 3 play different styles and are quite tough to play against if you're not used to it.
 
marktan said:
In the PL over the length of a season I'd expect Barca to be top or challenging yes.

By 'on their day' I meant more if they turn up, because they're good enough to beat any of the English teams, but they've struggled in Europe over the last 3 seasons. I think they'd comfortably beat us but I can see any of Spurs, Pool or City nullifying their attack and scoring against them. All 3 play different styles and are quite tough to play against if you're not used to it.
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Didn't Barcelona score 4 against Spurs at Wembley?
 
Tommy said:
Didn't Barcelona score 4 against Spurs at Wembley?
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With a lot of Spurs' first team missing and then they drew a few months later at the Nou Camp. Obviously Barca will be the favourites but Spurs are capable of putting in performances like the one against Dortmund.
 
marktan said:
With a lot of Spurs' first team missing and then they drew a few months later at the Nou Camp. Obviously Barca will be the favourites but Spurs are capable of putting in performances like the one against Dortmund.
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If I remember right, Barca were already top of the group with nothing to play for in the second game, while Spurs really wanted the point(s). Kinda like the second Juve game versus United. Juve have already shown they can turn it up when the pressure is on, and I reckon Barcelona could do that too.

I'm not saying Spurs/Liverpool/United would have no chance versus them, but I'd really not bet against Barca.

City vs Barcelona is the game we need to see.
 
KingMinger22 said:
I don't get why some people here are dismissing the current strength of the PL based on the past of five years or so.

I think most people are in agreement that Spain were stronger at the top end of the league's.

Now though, I think we are seeing a turning point and I expect the PL to be the dominant league for the foreseeable future.

The league has much more strength in depth compared to other leagues also.

You two absolute top sides in City and Liverpool. Imagine if United as well can kick on. Though I think we are a far ways off that yet.
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We aren't really doing that.

People are saying PL was not the best 3-5 years ago when Wum was saying it was, and the fact that it's the best now does not prove that it was valid 3 years back or more.
 
Not seeing it. Bundesliga is abysmal now and 3 English sides drew 3 Bundesliga teams, the other went through with Di Matteo's Chelsea-esque luck.
 
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