The relative strength of the Premier League

africanspur said:
Again, I don't think the statistic referred to individual ties. It was talking about Spanish teams winning the knockout ties and the rarity of non Spanish teams knocking them out in the knockout stages. The fact that Valencia lost 3-0 away to Basel is neither here nor there in knockout football when they ended up going through anyway.
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I'm not talking about individual games, I'm talking about knock out ties.

Instead of lost I should have used Knocked out.
 
Well, let's wait and see how many of the Spanish players turn out to be massive drug cheats before we start waxing too lyric about their football. ;)

WADA scratching it’s head about skeletons in the closet

The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) is yet to close the book on the performance-enhancing drug ring foiled by Operación Puerto ten years ago.

Operación Puerto – the code-name for the Spanish police operation that took down the network created by Doctor Eufemiano Fuentes – started in 2006 but is still relevant today.

In 2013, Fuentes had the chance to identify all the athletes involved in the network, but was reminded by the judge that he was under no obligation to do so. Later, several high-profile cyclists were named, but many were removed from the case as there was not enough evidence at the time.

Interestingly, evidence was found that the drug-ring went beyond cycling, implicating track athletes and tennis players, but this could not be corroborated in court.

The doctor was originally sentenced to one year in prison but months later the verdict was overruled and Fuentes was cleared.

However, the blood bags central to the case – all 211 of them believed to belong to 36 athletes – were bizarrely ordered to be destroyed by the court. In 2016, an appeal by WADA was successful in preventing their destruction.

Reports reveal that the bags have been tested in Switzerland and WADA has the results, but is unsure what to do them, giving indication as to how damaging the information might be.

Crucially, given the long period over which the saga has played out, the statute of limitations for sporting sanctions under WADA expired in 2014. In short, any athlete implicated cannot be punished.

Former WADA director general, David Howman, explains further.

"It is not an easy process," the Kiwi told Spanish news outlet AS.

"Operation Puerto has caused WADA and clean athletes a lot of frustration. Unfortunately, we continue without a clear outcome for 100% of its scope, and we also continue to debate with the lawyers about the list of those involved.

"So many people all over the world want to know the name of those involved. However, there are legal problems to deal with. Now it is too late, since the statute of limitations has expired, there is no possibility of punishment and it requires study and caution."

Moving forward, Howman is unsure what would transpire should the gritty details be made public, which could very well be damning news for the sporting world.

"We will see how it is resolved," he continued.

"Operation Puerto needs to be closed, to know what there was inside it, to avoid it happening again in the future. It is evident that this saga of more than a decade is not going to produce an ideal outcome, but it is not in my hands. I respect the decisions of the judges, of WADA, and of the involved parties, although it is difficult to accept them."

WADA could very well be holding the proverbial gun that would shatter the reputation of sporting greats around the world, but they are understandably afraid to pull the trigger.
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http://www.foxsportsasia.com/news/wada-scratching-its-head-about-skeletons-in-the-closet/
 
zee.robs said:
Same tables as above before christmas

vs all:
G F A P D PpG
ENG 36 60 37 63 23 1,75
ESP 42 79 45 81 34 1,93
FRA 30 40 33 49 7 1,63
GER 36 65 44 65 21 1,81
ITA 36 69 45 61 24 1,69

vs Top5
G F A P D PpG
ENG 12 15 16 13 -1 1,08
ESP 14 21 17 22 4 1,57
FRA 14 10 16 13 -6 0,93
GER 16 16 18 22 -2 1,38
ITA 8 12 7 14 5 1,75
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those numbers are really interesting. my hypothesis holds true for germany, italy and spain. but not for the PL especially not against the top 5
 
Celestiale said:
Just checked 13/14 season, and there are a lot more then 3 times that Spanish teams did not win in the knockout stages...yellow press :rolleyes:
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2013/14 CL 7 out of 7
EL 9/9
2014/15 CL 6/7
EL 6/8
2015/16 CL 7/7
EL 10/11

That's a total of 45 out of 49. If we include finals, it's 49/53
 
giorno said:
IIRC, between 2013/14 and 2015/16 spanish sides went through 45 times out of 48 against non-spanish sides in two-legged knockout ties. At one point it was 45 out of 46
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Which is why I find the drop off this year interesting.

Kentonio said:
Well, let's wait and see how many of the Spanish players turn out to be massive drug cheats before we start waxing too lyric about their football. ;)
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I do love a good fall from grace.
 
Celestiale said:
You have been talking about games:
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giorno said:
That said, there are aberrations, such as spanish sides winning 45 out of 46 knockout ties against non-spanish sides
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giorno said:
IIRC, between 2013/14 and 2015/16 spanish sides went through 45 times out of 48 against non-spanish sides in two-legged knockout ties. At one point it was 45 out of 46
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It's been pretty obvious what people have been talking about, before calling people out for spreading fake news, try to actually understand what they are saying first.
 
BarcaSpurs said:
It's been pretty obvious what people have been talking about, before calling people out for spreading fake news, try to actually understand what they are saying first.
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Well this 45 of 46 is a lie, no matter from which direction you look at it.
And tie means one game, at least several dictionaries tell that..
 
Celestiale said:
Well this 45 of 46 is a lie, no matter from which direction you look at it.
And tie means one game, at least several dictionaries tell that..
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No, it was slightly incorrect and was actually 45/48, slight mistakes can happen when trying to remember a statistic off the top of your head, that doesn't make it a lie.
The second part of your sentence is straight up completely wrong and you must surely be aware of that and are only arguing for the sake of it, A QF knockout tie consists of 2 legs, the team that wins advances to the next round is the team that wins the aggregate score over the 2 legs and is considered to have won the tie.
 
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The best answer would be to make a ranking like:

Tier 1 Level: Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern
Tier 2 Level: Atletico Madrid, Napoli, PSG, Monaco,Juve, Dortmund, Porto + Top 3 UK
Tier 3 Level: Sevilla, Roma, ...
Tier 4 Level: Bottom England, Bottom Spain...
Tier 5 Level: Bottom France...
Tier 6 and above Level: Bottom Portugal, Bottom Netherlands,

It would be interesting to compare the following packages:

- Spanish package: Bottom Spain: Grenada/Malaga/Gijon/Deportivo...
- English bottom: Swansea/Crystal Palace/Hull City...
- Italian bottom: Empoli/Genoa/Cagliari/Palermo
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Which is why I find the drop off this year interesting.


.
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isn't it just due to key players now being past their prime? and the new players who have been bought in to replace them not being as good or much better than players the opposition already have?
 
Kentonio said:
Well, let's wait and see how many of the Spanish players turn out to be massive drug cheats before we start waxing too lyric about their football. ;)


http://www.foxsportsasia.com/news/wada-scratching-its-head-about-skeletons-in-the-closet/
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I don't get why you brits are so obsessed about spanish players being doped, when all you say is that La Liga is easy to play in because there's no intensity, players don't run, we just pass the ball around and so on... If anything you need doping to have a chance in the incredibly intense, physical and fixture-packed premier league ;)
 
Ridge Racer said:
I don't get why you brits are so obsessed about spanish players being doped, when all you say is that La Liga is easy to play in because there's no intensity, players don't run, we just pass the ball around and so on... If anything you need doping to have a chance in the incredibly intense, physical and fixture-packed premier league ;)
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Probably because there are many confirmed doping incidents from this league lately, with the whole San Sebastian team the negative highlight.
In all honesty though, i am pretty sure doping is done in all big money leagues. Very good, non-tracable doping..there are so many substances out there by now that are next to impossible to verify. Quite ironic that most proven single doping incidents are recreational drugs
 
Downcast said:
The best answer would be to make a ranking like:

Tier 1 Level: Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern
Tier 2 Level: Atletico Madrid, Napoli, PSG, Monaco,Juve, Dortmund, Porto + Top 3 UK
Tier 3 Level: Sevilla, Roma, ...
Tier 4 Level: Bottom England, Bottom Spain...
Tier 5 Level: Bottom France...
Tier 6 and above Level: Bottom Portugal, Bottom Netherlands,

It would be interesting to compare the following packages:

- Spanish package: Bottom Spain: Grenada/Malaga/Gijon/Deportivo...
- English bottom: Swansea/Crystal Palace/Hull City...
- Italian bottom: Empoli/Genoa/Cagliari/Palermo
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Atlético Madrid won a title more recently than Real Madrid and beat Bayern in the CL only last year on the way to making more finals than them in the past few years, how are they a tier below in what world are they closer to Napoli, Monaco and Porto? A better way to look at it is to first identify a time frame, if we take for example the last decade, it would be Barcelona standing alone up there untouched with a domestic dominance that saw them win 6 out of the last 8 titles and an almost unseen before European dominance. They are followed by us Bayern an Real. If we limit it to the past 5 years, I would say Barcelona's level dropped to be on the same level as the Bayern and Real with us out of the discussion and replaced by Atlético Madrid and maybe Juventus if we are being generous. The second level would the top English teams with PSG and Dortmund. Roma and Sevilla being possible inclusions.
 
Thunderhead said:
isn't it just due to key players now being past their prime? and the new players who have been bought in to replace them not being as good or much better than players the opposition already have?
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Well, Villarreal changed manager in late august and were unlucky to draw the very impressive monaco in the CL playoff, while athletic bilbao...i dunno what happened honestly. Even with Aduriz injury, they really should not have gone out to Apoel...

Also, sevilla in CL knockout rounds instead of EL

Still, their CL record is one thing, but that level of domination over the europa league was honestly unsustainable. As i said, a bit of an aberration
 
Updated

2013-14 EL 7-0 + 3-0 in qualification rounds
2014-15 EL 5-1 + 2-1 in qualification rounds
2015-16 EL 9-1 + 2-0 in qualification rounds

2013-14 CL 6-0 + 1-0 in play-off round
2014-15 CL 6-1 + 1-0 in play-off round
2015-16 CL 6-0 + 1-0 in play-off round
 
Sarni said:
What about Barca beating City 4-0? Or Bayern destroying England's third best team 10-2? Or Tottenham first being knocked out by an average German team then by an average Belgian team? Or West Ham being knocked out by a heavily struggling Romanian team two years in a row?

Oh I forgot, that does not count. It only counts when it's an English team winning. :lol:

And it's not three victories in a row BTW. Sevilla beat Liverpool in last year's Europa League final which was the last knockout meeting between English and Spanish team before this one. Liverpool did beat Villarreal before that (which you madly celebrated).
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:lol: Sarni taking no prisoners
 
@Theonas

Depending the selection criterion (snapshot or time interval, team or club, European perfs weight...), a ranking would defer.

I'm comfortable with your classification.

It's more interesting to compare the worst teams of the best leagues.

Malaga, Swansea and Empoli --> which team is the best?
 
Downcast said:
Malaga, Swansea and Empoli --> which team is the best?
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Empoli is comfortably worse than the other two. I'd say malaga and swansea are pretty much on the same level, though malaga are going through a bad patch of form right now
 
Downcast said:
@Theonas

Depending the selection criterion (snapshot or time interval, team or club, European perfs weight...), a ranking would defer.

I'm comfortable with your classification.

It's more interesting to compare the worst teams of the best leagues.

Malaga, Swansea and Empoli --> which team is the best?
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Empoli are awful, probably the worst team in the top leagues.

17157771_1440272966011133_8899341341195992778_o.png
 
sammsky1 said:
No I didn't. Were Seville any good?
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Yes, they had a million chances, a controversial missed penalty, another not given, and Leicester scored from literally their only entry into the box and only shot on target. It was a 3-0 match, not a 2-1, but their finishing was terrible. TBH after the vardy goal this felt a little inevitable, like Chelsea in 2012.
 
Downcast said:
Malaga, Swansea and Empoli --> which team is the best?
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Malaga and Swansea are roughly equal, Swansea have a player Malaga can dream though (in the current situation). But looking at Granada, Leganes or Gijon, they are comfortably worse then Swansea, and no better then Empoli apart from bad/good form patches
 
Celestiale said:
Malaga and Swansea are roughly equal, Swansea have a player Malaga can dream though (in the current situation). But looking at Granada, Leganes or Gijon, they are comfortably worse then Swansea, and no better then Empoli apart from bad/good form patches
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I understand the worst English teams > Spanish ones > Italian ones.
 
Downcast said:
I understand the worst English teams > Spanish ones > Italian ones.
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Yep. I'd say it's kinda hard to compare the worst teams from Italy and Spain, both don't really have money and use "domestic talent" and unwanted loanees for their first XI mostly, i'd say they are roughly equal.
 
Celestiale said:
But looking at Granada, Leganes or Gijon, they are comfortably worse then Swansea, and no better then Empoli apart from bad/good form patches
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Leganes are FAR better than empoli. I'd say they're close to swansea. Sporting and Granada are probably on empoli's level, Sporting are probably better
 
giorno said:
Sassuolo are better than both, by quite a comfortable margin
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No. They have one star player, just like Swansea. Swansea has a way better striker (actually 3), flair players like Narsingh and Montero. They have a Netherlands starter in their central midfield. Who else has Sassuolo?
giorno said:
Leganes are FAR better than empoli. I'd say they're close to swansea
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Lol
 
Downcast said:
@Theonas

Depending the selection criterion (snapshot or time interval, team or club, European perfs weight...), a ranking would defer.

I'm comfortable with your classification.

It's more interesting to compare the worst teams of the best leagues.

Malaga, Swansea and Empoli --> which team is the best?
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Difficult question this mate. I keep changing my view on this all the time to be honest with you. I think they can't be graded on a vertical scale to be honest with you. English teams for me definitely have better players. Even the Sunderlands and Stokes of England seem to have players of an international pedigree and profile. This is easily explainable by the riches of the PL of course. However, this also led to laziness from English clubs in terms of building team cohesion and working on tactical solutions and systems. Mix this with the desperation of English teams to stay in the PL and the result is a league full of teams who will just about take every short cut possible to get the next three points at the expense of anything. Spanish and maybe German and Italian teams and coaches seem to be more focused on building and practising a system of playing, they adhere to it and work on improving it with every game. This commitment and maybe in certain cases, stubbornness mean they usually come up short against the best teams in their league more often than English team would but it also means they are better drilled tactically and technically in the long run.

When the two meet, the English team will have advantages in the sense of individuality as well as the inherent dogged attitude of the British mentality buoyed by probably the most influential fan support in Europe. The Spanish team will usually be better at their positioning game, movement and tactics in general. If they succeed to make it a pure footballing contest, they more often than not end up not only winning, but winning comfortably. If it turns into an emotional one, The English team will have the advantage.
 
Celestiale said:
No. They have one star player, just like Swansea. Swansea has a way better striker (actually 3), flair players like Narsingh and Montero. They have a Netherlands starter in their central midfield. Who else has Sassuolo?
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Really? Narsingh and Montero? Have you actually any idea what you're talking about, or do you base your judgement on what players you recognize?

Sassuolo are Southampton's level, nevermind swansea.
 
giorno said:
Really? Narsingh and Montero? Have you actually any idea what you're talking about, or do you base your judgement on what players you recognize?

Sassuolo are Southampton's level, nevermind swansea.
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Mate i am watching analysis from every top 5 league + many live games. I know what i am talking about. Narsingh had a huge effect on how Swansea plays...
Sassuolo on Southampton's level...yeah sure. :lol::lol: They are spiked with national players, and major nations cup winners like Southampton...oh wait - they are not.
 
The good old way of arguing a team is better by basically saying "I recognize more names on Team X's squad sheet than on Team Y's" never fails.
 
Celestiale said:
Mate i am watching analysis from every top 5 league + many live games. I know what i am talking about. Narsingh had a huge effect on how Swansea plays...
Sassuolo on Southampton's level...yeah sure. :lol::lol: They are spiked with national players, and major nations cup winners like Southampton...oh wait - they are not.
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Southampton really have 2-3 players who are better than sassuolo's. Van Dijk, Bertrand, and Gabbiadini

And as a whole, they're on a similar level. Nevermind form, sassuolo's season went tits up in December and they've had little to play for since
 
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