The relative strength of the Premier League
- Thread starter Wumminator
- Start date
Of course. I also reckon Barcelona will win La Liga despite losing to Atletico in CL.
Funny how these European games only have meaning for you when they go your way.When they embarrassed English 2nd placed team it was meaningless.
Dortmund are considerably better than any English team. If last night proves anything it's that having a tough league game against top opposition can drain you and make you play worse than playing a God awful Stoke team.
It's disgusting that you are literally celebrating Liverpool win because in your crazy mind it proves your point on an Internet forum. Wow.
I always claimed Europa league doesn't show much. Seems like you're now on my side.
You're also now arguing playing harder teams can change your chances in Europe I see?
I've never said that playing harder teams before European games does not affect you. You can sort of tell by the way Dortmund fell to Liverpool yesterday it has to be partially true.
Europa League is a good competition for non-top teams.
In 3 days he celebrated Liverpool and Man City wins with a post on this subject. I think he has turned away from being a Man Utd fan and became PL fanboy.
The PL is not at the top but should be on the way up in the next few years.
If they get their act together they should be especially competitive in the Europa League.
If they get their act together they should be especially competitive in the Europa League.
I feel like this season the PL has worked away quite a bit of its tactical deficits compared to other leagues. Way more counter pressing going on. Pep arriving in England will only accellerate this trend. This bodes well for the coming years, financially they are without peer.
You came to this thread about 20 minutes after game finished.
I certainly wasn't celebrating yesterday I can tell you.
How in anyway was I celebrating in this thread?
I was making a point that Dortmund weren't all that. People in this thread suggested they'd walk the league. They took one point from 6 against a 8th placed team. I was furious at them throwing it away.
@Sarni is an amazing warrior. I always imagine him in an indian get up with a gigantic alpha headdress and holding hands with a bear with a huge ass spear in his other hand. Or sitting on a tiger squinting his one good eye (other eye scarred) to aim an arrow with the tip full of cobra poison at his target. Relentless and breathtaking. Love him.
Of course. I also reckon Barcelona will win La Liga despite losing to Atletico in CL.
Funny how these European games only have meaning for you when they go your way.
Dortmund are considerably better than any English team. .... .
It was largely meaningless, because Spurs fielded their B team in the 1st leg ... and only fielded their B+ team in the 2nd leg to try and avoid another drubbing.
Try comparing the Spurs starting line-up in that first leg with the XI that thrashed United last weekend.
Well, you did look quite happy.
Come on, you did that because you knew well you were getting hammered either way. You still fielded your best defender, best midfielder and best goalkeeper and still looked completely out of place and got outclassed.
Liverpool didn't get hammered and they have a much worse squad than Spurs on this seasons evidence.
Just the 8 players rested then...
I have already told you it's because Dortmund played Schalke and Liverpool played Stoke.
Yep. Deliberately so first team players don't endure the hiding Dortmund had given them.
Looking at the Liverpool game it looks as if that fear was misplaced.
The gap between Dortmund and Spurs was that big, it doesn't really matter that they rested some players, when they could have lost the first game with 6 or 7 goals.
Those comparisons doesn't make much sense. Dortmund didn't play as good against Pool than they did against Spurs and Pool did much better than Spurs did, the same side who barely scraped through 15th placed Augsburg. It happens. That doesn't mean results in Europe are meaningless, Spanish teams dominate both competitions every year, so of course that is a indicator for a strong La Liga, but that's not because of 1,2 games.
Those comparisons doesn't make much sense. Dortmund didn't play as good against Pool than they did against Spurs and Pool did much better than Spurs did, the same side who barely scraped through 15th placed Augsburg. It happens. That doesn't mean results in Europe are meaningless, Spanish teams dominate both competitions every year, so of course that is a indicator for a strong La Liga, but that's not because of 1,2 games.
What exactly does this game prove though? If anyone in the PL could beat Dortmund it would be Liverpool with Klopp, who spent his whole career in Germany and 6(?) years at Dortmund. In knockout games like this the team setup and tactics have a huge impact on the results. Liverpool set up perfectly, and Klopp knew exactly how to threaten the Dortmund defense. As evidenced, this Liverpool team is doing much better against the big teams and have a harder time against midtable teams. Klopp beat City, Chelsea, United, Leicester and Liverpool should have won against Arsenal. I don't have to tell you how often Klopp managed to beat the big European sides while being Dortmund manager.
In contrast, Pochettino looked absolutely clueless and had no idea in the 2 legs at all. Yes he didn't field his strongest eleven but it was not even close at any point in the match. Way worse teams have managed to beat Dortmund in the past, but in these games you could clearly see that Tottenham had no game plan at all.
Honestly, who cares if the PL is better than some other league?
I only care about United and how they compare to the rest. feck Pool and City.
I only care about United and how they compare to the rest. feck Pool and City.
Don't be silly. Your first comment bears no relation to a team that's 2nd in the Prem, has beaten City twice this season (5 - 1 aggregate score) and thrashed United 3 - 0 last weekend.
Wow! We fielded 3 players from our best XI .... you try to pretend it's a lot
As I've said before, Pochettino pretty much threw the tie in favour of our league campaign.
Correction: The gap between Dortmund and Spurs B team was that big
Klopps tactics are great against bigger teams who play out from the back and are more open.
I could understand your point if Dortmund would have won both games with 1-0. Then of course someone like Kane or Dembele could have made a big difference. But they completely wiped the floor with your team, it wasn't only the players, also from a tactical point you looked 2 levels worse at least. Like I said they could have won 6-0, the difference in quality was that big. You still played with Lloris, Toby, your fullbacks (don't think it matters much which of those 4 you lineup), Eriksen and in the second half you brought Dembele, Lamela and Kane on which did change feck all. So I really don't see how a few players here and there would have made that tie close. You could also argue that Dortmund didn't care about the second game either because they were already through and they still won comfortable away from home. They showed their best level against your team and that's a level too high for probably every other PL team too, they couldn't show that kind of performance against Pool or only showed it here and there when they scored their goals in the first 10 minutes and after the 1-2.
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Klopp's an excellent tactician in knockout games. He became one after Dortmund's initial struggles in these games and since then quite regularly managed to drag better opponents down to his team's level as he himself often put it. Even in his disastrous last season, he kicked Bayern out of the cup and topped the CL group easily ahead of Arsenal. It's really not that surprising that he found a way to hurt Dortmund considering that he knows every single player in that squad better than anyone else. He always was a great motivator as well, so he could motivate his players to pull off this brilliant come-back. It was an amazing game in my opinion, I wouldn't be surprised if Liverpool go on and win the EL. It'll be a huge, huge boost for them and CL football would help Klopp attract top players in the summer.
If anyone thinks it makes Liverpool a better team than Dortmund, well, fair enough. I certainly didn't claim that Wolfsburg was a better team than United just because they kicked you out of the CL. Thought that would have been silly. It just shows that you shouldn't cherrypick single games or ties and look at the overall picture and it again looks like both leagues will end up collecting a similar number of points for UEFA's 5 year coefficient this season. That might actually mean something considering the significantly higher number of games that go into that ranking.
If anyone thinks it makes Liverpool a better team than Dortmund, well, fair enough. I certainly didn't claim that Wolfsburg was a better team than United just because they kicked you out of the CL. Thought that would have been silly. It just shows that you shouldn't cherrypick single games or ties and look at the overall picture and it again looks like both leagues will end up collecting a similar number of points for UEFA's 5 year coefficient this season. That might actually mean something considering the significantly higher number of games that go into that ranking.
Is it really a Klopp tactical masterclass when they are 2-0 down at halftime and needing to score 4 to win?
Thought the first game was excellent from a tactical point of view. The comeback was a mix of Dortmund fecking up and Liverpool showing great determination to get back into the game. Liverpool did threaten Dortmund throughout though, so it wasn't like Liverpool's attacking plan was bad from the start. And I did mention that Klopp's an excellent man-manager and motivator, which could have easily played a big role. In my opinion it would be silly if we don't give Klopp a lot of credit for Liverpool going through. But that's just me, I actually like the guy, which isn't that common between Bayern fans.
How they come back and how they got to several opportunities and exposed Dortmund's weak defence is something you have to give Klopp credit for, especially their mentality was great. Of course Dortmund bottled it too, when you are 2-0 and 3-1 up away and concede 4 goals in a half you have to blame yourself. I think Tuchel made a mistake with the Kagawa sub, Ginter looked lost and they lost any connection from defence to midfield and attack. They completely lost the control over the game after the 2nd goal except for a few minutes and I don't think the sub helped them. Was Gündogan not fit? I think he also came too late, would have helped them to control things in midfield.
Yes but if the result was the mirror opposite would Klopp receive the criticism or would Dortmund get all the praise?
Im not saying Klopp was clueless or anything but a game that ends 4-3 in a second leg tie in Europe doesn't scream tactical nous to me.
Im not saying Klopp was clueless or anything but a game that ends 4-3 in a second leg tie in Europe doesn't scream tactical nous to me.
Don't think people would praise Dortmund if they barely got through in a tie in which they were favourites. At least I wouldn't. I like Tuchel and what he overall did so far this season deserves a lot of praise. Several of his decisions in the past week were somewhat questionable though, but he's still very young and in his first season at a big club. He'll learn.
In a competitive tie, not the Spurs weakened version I would fancy all of Spurs, Arsenal, City, Utd and As we've just seen Liverpool against Dortmund.
Funnily enough they would probably mash Leicester though.
I would also take Aubameyang in a heartbeat.
Funnily enough they would probably mash Leicester though.
I would also take Aubameyang in a heartbeat.
You forgot Stoke.
And Villa
Wow, he really is born to lose. Well and truly owned there.As I've already said, it wasn't just "a few players here and there" - eight players who form our best XI didn't start. And these very definitely include both Walker and Rose, who are preferred in tough league games over Trippier and Davies.
If Dortmund would still have been so vastly superior to even Spurs best XI, then you need to explain how Liverpool - who beat Dortmund over the two legs - currently sit effectively 18 points below Spurs (given GD) in the league table .... and even if Liverpool win both their two games in hand that effective gap will still be 12 points.
You say that Dortmund didn't care about the 2nd game. I say that Spurs - rightly or wrongly - obviously didn't care much about either game. If Spurs had started their strongest available XI in both games then it's pretty obvious that - based on our league performances (including the 5 - 1 aggregate victories over Man. City) - we would at the very least have been a good match for Dortmund.
Great logic. That's why in every match the team which is higher up the table ends up winning. Right?
Klopp has a very good record when it comes to big and/or knock-out matches, whereas in the league it has been rather mediocre (in comparison) for quite some years. Those are the occasions when his style is most effective and thus it's not that big of a surprise that Liverpool caused Dortmund problems whereas Spurs with their rather inexperienced coach couldn't.
That's not what I said ... football is too unpredictable for that.
Spurs have a better first XI than Liverpool and we also have a coach who, despite your saying he's inexperienced, is now highly regarded as being one of the very best young coaches around. Thus, if Liverpool could beat Dortmund over two legs then clearly so could Spurs have done likewise IF they'd fielded their best available XI in both matches. That's the logic ... not your wild assertion that Dortmund would have been vastly superior regardless.
Yeah, such a simple equation.
Klopp thrives under conditions such as last night, they play into his cards tactically and from an emotional or motivational point. Now, what's Pochettino's continental track record?
You tell me football is unpredictable, then you claim that because Spurs coach is young and because they do better in a different competition they would do similar things in Europe.
Dortmund also have a better squad than both Liverpool and Spurs and their coach is young and promising too. Yet they lost against Liverpool, because Tuchel had less experience than Klopp and thus couldn't stabilize his team in the final minutes.
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