The relative strength of the Premier League

[amolbhatia50k]

One match doesn't make a point. But yesterday's final was another example I want to use to highlight, for @Twigginater, why the difference in money spent between English and Spanish clubs, that keeps getting brought up to correlate to team strength, is wrong.

I keep saying that while Spanish teams, the ones from the "rest" of the pack, don't have the same resources and spending power as their PL counter-parts, they make up for it in terms of sensible business, coaching, tactics and management.

Seville's transfer activity (15/16)
Major In - Immoble 8.25 million
Major Out - Bacca 22.5 million
Net result - +8.66 million (surplus)

Seville's transfer activity (14/15)
Major In - Krychowiak 4.13 million
Major Out - Moreno and Rakitic 13.5 million
Net result - +22.20 million (surplus)

Liverpool's transfer activity (15/16)
Major In - Benteke 34.88 million & Firmino 30.75 million
Major Out - Sterling 46.88 million
Net result - -28.40 million (spending)

Liverpool's transfer activity (14/15)
Major In - Lallana 23.25 million & Lovren/Markovic - 18.98/18.75 million
Major Out - Suarez 61.29 million
Net result - -38.77 million (spending)

The point is that the two clubs operate in very different ways in the market. Going by the logic of some, the fact that Liverpool spend more, buy players for 15-30 million pounds regularly and have players to sell for 40-60 million, should automatically mean that they're the better side. And the fact that they're not, and it's Seville with 3 Europa League titles in a row, proves this theory completely wrong. Spending 30 million Benteke doesn't make you better. Being better on the pitch where it matters does.

 

[Sarni]

One match doesn't make a point. But yesterday's final was another example I want to use to highlight, for @Twigginater, why the difference in money spent between English and Spanish clubs, that keeps getting brought up to correlate to team strength, is wrong.

I keep saying that while Spanish teams, the ones from the "rest" of the pack, don't have the same resources and spending power as their PL counter-parts, they make up for it in terms of sensible business, coaching, tactics and management.

Yeah it's just one game but after months, even year of people constantly claiming that anyone outside top 2 in Spain are abysmal teams full of cretins, it's funny to yet again see a Spanish side dominate an English team in Europe, and this wasn't even a top form Spanish team as Sevilla have been very poor for the best of the last quarter. Likewise Villarreal who gave Liverpool a fight in the previous round and only lost after going down to 10 men at Anfield, they were a team completely out of form who had peaked a good few months before playing Liverpool, yet somehow Twigg was fully convinced that it was final proof that PL is awesome and La Liga is a shit terrible abysmal league. Also funny that CL final will be played between two Spanish teams, one of which is not actually a part of the big 2 and moreover they're apparently not even better than Tottenham.

And what adds fuel to this is that people were actually posting on here saying 'now that English club care, they win it' at half time.

 

[Earthquake]

Yeah it's just one game but after months, even year of people constantly claiming that anyone outside top 2 in Spain are abysmal teams full of cretins, it's funny to yet again see a Spanish side dominate an English team in Europe, and this wasn't even a top form Spanish team as Sevilla have been very poor for the best of the last quarter. Likewise Villarreal who gave Liverpool a fight in the previous round and only lost after going down to 10 men at Anfield, they were a team completely out of form who had peaked a good few months before playing Liverpool, yet somehow Twigg was fully convinced that it was final proof that PL is awesome and La Liga is a shit terrible abysmal league. Also funny that CL final will be played between two Spanish teams, one of which is not actually a part of the big 2 and moreover they're apparently not even better than Tottenham.

And what adds fuel to this is that people were actually posting on here saying 'now that English club care, they win it' at half time.

You laugh now, but Spurs are odds on to win the next World Cup.

 

[ti vu]

Not sure what tonight shows.

Liverpool were far better then fell apart with clownish defending, Sevilla much too intelligent and savvy to pass up the opportunities and then zipped the ball around with the confidence Liverpool gave them. Liverpool went to pieces as soon as things started looking even slightly tits up.

I'd still say Liverpool are the stronger side but lack Sevilla's big-game experience and bottle.

"It's not the strong one that wins, the one that wins is strong". Franz Beckenbauer.

Winning mentality is underrated while flashy gung-ho football is overrated.

 

[Stacks]

With that Seville win,it is confirmed that:

Spanish teams have won the UEFA champions league and Europe league for the last 3 seasons. The last none Spanish winner was Jupp Heyneckes Bayern. That was 2013,which feels like a lifetime ago in more ways than one

Simply amazing.

simply Spanish teams have won Europe for the last 3 years. One cannot question the strength of their division. Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and English sides did this? people still talk about the fact we have had 2 finalists of the last 6 finals lol

 

[Earthquake]

simply Spanish teams have won Europe for the last 3 years. One cannot question the strength of their division. Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and English sides did this? people still talk about the fact we have had 2 finalists of the last 6 finals lol

Imagine if Spain win the Euros, sheer dominance.

 

[justboy68]

Spain is obviously ahead of the pack at the moment. Even if Liverpool would've won last night that would have been an obvious truth. It's been like that for the last 4 or 5 years or so. You can make a case for either the Prem or the BL for 2nd place in terms of strength, however it's extremely clear which league of the two is better from an entertainment standpoint.

 

[RoyH1]

It's painfully clear that there is a large gap between La Liga and the Premiership at the time moment. La Liga simply has better, more technical, more tactically astute football. Anyone arguing that is in denial.

But things can and do change change. Let's see what happen when the Premiership teams get their new cash injection from the TV deal.

 

[Treble]

It's painfully clear that there is a large gap between La Liga and the Premiership at the time moment. La Liga simply has better, more technical, more tactically astute football. Anyone arguing that is in denial.

But things can and do change change. Let's see what happen when the Premiership teams get their new cash injection from the TV deal.

This can change things indeed but it is not like most English clubs are not already richer than the Spanish ones.

 

[Stack]

It's painfully clear that there is a large gap between La Liga and the Premiership at the time moment. La Liga simply has better, more technical, more tactically astute football. Anyone arguing that is in denial.

But things can and do change change. Let's see what happen when the Premiership teams get their new cash injection from the TV deal.

The technical/tactical approach is not because of money but because of a different football culture.

 

[Sarni]

But could Rayo Vallecano get even a point in Premier League?

 

[do.ob]

What if we include the science of trends in this topic? Surely we'd get a good answer out of it?

 

[Lyricist]

It's painfully clear that there is a large gap between La Liga and the Premiership at the time moment. La Liga simply has better, more technical, more tactically astute football. Anyone arguing that is in denial.

But things can and do change change. Let's see what happen when the Premiership teams get their new cash injection from the TV deal.

The English clubs already are BY FAR richer than their European counterparts. Newly promoted Premier League sides will outspend clubs like Sevilla or Schalke.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yeah it's just one game but after months, even year of people constantly claiming that anyone outside top 2 in Spain are abysmal teams full of cretins, it's funny to yet again see a Spanish side dominate an English team in Europe, and this wasn't even a top form Spanish team as Sevilla have been very poor for the best of the last quarter. Likewise Villarreal who gave Liverpool a fight in the previous round and only lost after going down to 10 men at Anfield, they were a team completely out of form who had peaked a good few months before playing Liverpool, yet somehow Twigg was fully convinced that it was final proof that PL is awesome and La Liga is a shit terrible abysmal league. Also funny that CL final will be played between two Spanish teams, one of which is not actually a part of the big 2 and moreover they're apparently not even better than Tottenham.

And what adds fuel to this is that people were actually posting on here saying 'now that English club care, they win it' at half time.

@Twigginater 's ignoring my stats. What a shame. I worked so hard just for him.

 

[Attila]

La Liga is the best league in the world for me. We may have the money but they produce better players are smarter in transfers

 

[Balu]

The English clubs already are BY FAR richer than their European counterparts. Newly promoted Premier League sides will outspend clubs like Sevilla or Schalke.

You can't put Sevilla and Schalke in the same tier. Schalke had the 13th biggest revenue last season. They're somewhat competitive. Maybe they'll fall behind a few more English clubs with the new tv deal, but even that isn't a given. They were still more than 50m Euro ahead of Everton and Newcastle last season and should also further increase their revenue, even though it won't be as much as the English clubs. The top 6 in England is obviously ahead of them of course and Tottenham should widen the gap (they were 12th last season, one place ahead of Schalke).

Sevilla on the other hand isn't even in the top 30 in Europe and probably has a revenue of about 100m Euro (it was 99m in 13/14, can't find the numbers for last season but it's definitely below the 30th place in the deloitte money league, so less than 125m.

I agree with your point though, the financial advantage is already crazy high between a club like Liverpool and Sevilla. Liverpool's revenue was 391m Euro last season, that's close to 4 times as high as Sevilla's. I doubt that a further increase of 50-60m makes a huge difference in terms of how many players the clubs lose/buy. Liverpool just has to use their resources a lot better than they did in the past years. If they don't do that, nothing will change despite the new cash injection from the tv deal.

 

[K2K]

simply Spanish teams have won Europe for the last 3 years. One cannot question the strength of their division. Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and English sides did this? people still talk about the fact we have had 2 finalists of the last 6 finals lol

Its just astonishing. I wouldnt bet against them doing it again next year.

 

[Robbie Boy]

@Twigginater 's ignoring my stats. What a shame. I worked so hard just for him.

He's in the LvG Out thread telling everyone that LvG will win us the league next season.

 

[RoyH1]

But could Rayo Vallecano get even a point in Premier League?

It'd probably not get relegated like they did in the Liga. Few Premiership sides could get a point playing in Vallecas.

 

[Wumminator]

@Twigginater 's ignoring my stats. What a shame. I worked so hard just for him.

Sorry, will respond later at some point.

 

[slig]

It's painfully clear that there is a large gap between La Liga and the Premiership at the time moment. La Liga simply has better, more technical, more tactically astute football. Anyone arguing that is in denial.

But things can and do change change. Let's see what happen when the Premiership teams get their new cash injection from the TV deal.

yeah, english teams will spend their money even dumber
a moneytrain riding in a circle. but with the new tv-deal, it will ride faster!

the next years will be very funny. even mediocre teams in spain and germany will get a lot too much money for their mediocre players, thanks to the well known "money-but-no-clue-culture" of the pl.
spain will get even more ahead in europe, the bundesliga as the second.
and far behind the pl will battle with the seria a for a 4th cl spot.

 

[Fearless]

The technical/tactical approach is not because of money but because of a different football culture.

This is the real reason.

The crash bag wallop of British football at ALL levels is the backbone of it's entertainment value and simultaneously the backbone of it's failure on the world stage.

 

[Piratesoup]

Sorry, will respond later at some point.

After you finally get to your premise, I guess.

 

[Wumminator]

One match doesn't make a point. But yesterday's final was another example I want to use to highlight, for @Twigginater, why the difference in money spent between English and Spanish clubs, that keeps getting brought up to correlate to team strength, is wrong.

I keep saying that while Spanish teams, the ones from the "rest" of the pack, don't have the same resources and spending power as their PL counter-parts, they make up for it in terms of sensible business, coaching, tactics and management.

Seville's transfer activity (15/16)
Major In - Immoble 8.25 million
Major Out - Bacca 22.5 million
Net result - +8.66 million (surplus)

Seville's transfer activity (14/15)
Major In - Krychowiak 4.13 million
Major Out - Moreno and Rakitic 13.5 million
Net result - +22.20 million (surplus)

Liverpool's transfer activity (15/16)
Major In - Benteke 34.88 million & Firmino 30.75 million
Major Out - Sterling 46.88 million
Net result - -28.40 million (spending)

Liverpool's transfer activity (14/15)
Major In - Lallana 23.25 million & Lovren/Markovic - 18.98/18.75 million
Major Out - Suarez 61.29 million
Net result - -38.77 million (spending)

The point is that the two clubs operate in very different ways in the market. Going by the logic of some, the fact that Liverpool spend more, buy players for 15-30 million pounds regularly and have players to sell for 40-60 million, should automatically mean that they're the better side. And the fact that they're not, and it's Seville with 3 Europa League titles in a row, proves this theory completely wrong. Spending 30 million Benteke doesn't make you better. Being better on the pitch where it matters does.

If these are the stats you are on about, then I'm sorry, but while Sevilla have got more for their money it's undoubtedly easy to see that Liverpool have got the better players in and are improving more. Liverpool just have access to more players. Benteke may flop at Liverpool, but him and Firminio represent players that Sevilla just can't sign. Now and then clubs might get big signings wrong, and Liverpool are notorious for spending on the wrong players (they had to replace Suarez in all fairness) but using one clubs transfer record doesn't really prove anything.

As for the Europa League final, yeah obviously Sevilla played Liverpool off the park in the second leg. But first half Liverpool were much better. I don't think there was much between the two teams and while Sevilla have won the competition three times now in a row, I've said before I don't think it really proves anything.

 

[Revan]

La Liga is the best league in the world for me. We may have the money but they produce better players are smarter in transfers

In UEFA coefficients (which while not perfect, they are arguably the best objective way of judging the quality of the leagues), the difference in points between La Liga and EPL is higher than the difference in points between EPL and Ukrainian League.

La Liga is so ahead of the other leagues that it isn't even funny anymore. Every time a La Liga team faces a non La Liga team in Europe, it is almost sure that La Liga team will win,

 

[amolbhatia50k]

If these are the stats you are on about, then I'm sorry, but while Sevilla have got more for their money it's undoubtedly easy to see that Liverpool have got the better players in and are improving more. Liverpool just have access to more players. Benteke may flop at Liverpool, but him and Firminio represent players that Sevilla just can't sign. Now and then clubs might get big signings wrong, and Liverpool are notorious for spending on the wrong players (they had to replace Suarez in all fairness) but using one clubs transfer record doesn't really prove anything.

As for the Europa League final, yeah obviously Sevilla played Liverpool off the park in the second leg. But first half Liverpool were much better. I don't think there was much between the two teams and while Sevilla have won the competition three times now in a row, I've said before I don't think it really proves anything.

I just proved your assumption of "more money=better team" wrong as Liverpool despite spending more clearly don't have a better team than Seville.

Should I do the same with Newcastle, Sunderland West Brom etc.?

I mean surely having spend over 40 million in the summer Newcastle should have had a really good team this season, right?

I'd actually do it but you're too set in your thoughts and not really open to new information.

 

[Revan]

I just proved your assumption of "more money=better team" wrong as Liverpool despite spending more clearly don't have a better team than Seville.

Should I do the same with Newcastle, Sunderland West Brom etc.?

I mean surely having spend over 40 million in the summer Newcastle should have had a really good team this season, right?

I'd actually do it but you're too set in your thoughts and not really open to new information.

But they do. A game means nothing.

You also have to realize that Liverpool was tired cause they had to play the likes of Stoke and Aston Villa, while Sevilla were fresh cause they only had to deal with poor teams like Barca, Real and Atletico. And of course, they had a full week of rest during the Christmas, while poor Liverpool had to play 3 matches during that week.

Liverpool is better cause they have more money and spend more money. Football is played in paper, after all.

 

[Wumminator]

I just proved your assumption of "more money=better team" wrong as Liverpool despite spending more clearly don't have a better team than Seville.

Should I do the same with Newcastle, Sunderland West Brom etc.?

I mean surely having spend over 40 million in the summer Newcastle should have had a really good team this season, right?

I'd actually do it but you're too set in your thoughts and not really open to new information.

I mean IMO Newcastle signed some really good players who would be stars in other leagues, but a mixture of manager inepttitde and a series of rotten personalities meant they went down.

My overall point is that more money - inevitably more success. I'd say that's a pretty standard accepted fact in football with some clubs occasionally breaking this rule.

 

[Revan]

I mean IMO Newcastle signed some really good players who would be stars in other leagues, but a mixture of manager inepttitde and a series of rotten personalities meant they went down.

My overall point is that more money - inevitably more success. I'd say that's a pretty standard accepted fact in football with some clubs occasionally breaking this rule.

Within a league. Not on different league though.

EPL has more money, but Spain has better players. EPL spends tens of millions on average players, while Spanish clubs get them for free from their academies.

 

[Wumminator]

Within a league. Not on different league though.

EPL has more money, but Spain has better players. EPL spends tens of millions on average players, while Spanish clubs get them for free from their academies.

Oh come on.

You're going to claim that Spanish clubs all have excellent academies producing excellent footballers compared to their English counterparts.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I mean IMO Newcastle signed some really good players who would be stars in other leagues, but a mixture of manager inepttitde and a series of rotten personalities meant they went down.

My overall point is that more money - inevitably more success. I'd say that's a pretty standard accepted fact in football with some clubs occasionally breaking this rule.

It doesn't matter what it is down to. At the end of the day, the strength of the TEAM is defined by how good a TEAM you have, not how much you spent or how many "really good players" you have. If you spend less but make more of your spending and are better coahced then you're a stronger team. Surely, you're getting this line of argument?

 

[Donaldo]

Yes, that should be pretty obvious looking at the National teams.

 

[Wumminator]

It doesn't matter what it is down to. At the end of the day, the strength of the TEAM is defined by how good a TEAM you have, not how much you spent or how many "really good players" you have. Surely, you're getting this line of argument?

Yes.

I get it. I think Premier League clubs have better teams.

 

[Balu]

I mean IMO Newcastle signed some really good players who would be stars in other leagues, but a mixture of manager inepttitde and a series of rotten personalities meant they went down.

My overall point is that more money - inevitably more success. I'd say that's a pretty standard accepted fact in football with some clubs occasionally breaking this rule.

Who of their signings would be a star in other leagues?

They spent 16m Euro on Shelvey and 16m on Townsend. Those 2 wouldn't be good enough to play for any Spanish midtable side, let alone one fighting for the EL places. Their technical ability is just awful.

None of Newcastle's signings would be stars in one of the top 6 leagues. Wijnaldum and Mitrović don't even excel in rather poor nationalteams and Thauvin wasn't a star in the French league as far as I know. Newcastle spent about 90m Euros on those 5 players and neither of them would improve Sevilla's starting XI. Sevilla's whole EL winning team probably cost a lot less than those 5 players together.

 

[Wumminator]

Yes, that should be pretty obvious looking at the National teams.

England currently has a fantastic national team with players like Rashford, Kane, Delle Ali and others coming through performing brilliantly in the Premier League at top level clubs.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yes.

I get it. I think Premier League clubs have better teams.

That I know, and disagree with. But more money spent doesn't necessarily mean you have a better team, as the PL and La Liga consistently proves.

 

[Donaldo]

England currently has a fantastic national team with players like Rashford, Kane, Delle Ali and others coming through performing brilliantly in the Premier League at top level clubs.

So we've heard for the past two decades. They've won sweet feck all in that time as well.

 

[Wumminator]

Who of their signings would be a star in other leagues?

They spent 16m Euro on Shelvey and 16m on Townsend. Those 2 wouldn't be good enough to play for any Spanish midtable side, let alone one fighting for the EL places. Their technical ability is just awful.

None of Newcastle's signings would be stars in one of the top 6 leagues. Wijnaldum and Mitrović don't even excel in rather poor nationalteams and Thauvin wasn't a star in the French league as far as I know. Newcastle spent about 90m Euros on those 5 players and neither of them would improve Sevilla's starting XI. Sevilla's whole EL winning team probably cost a lot less than those 5 players together.

They have Steven N'Zonzi as a starter!

 

[Wumminator]

So we've heard for the past two decades. They've won sweet feck all in that time as well.

There's only one competition you can win every two years in football. In the last four years, England and Spain have got to the same level in all International tournaments.

 

[Revan]

Oh come on.

You're going to claim that Spanish clubs all have excellent academies producing excellent footballers compared to their English counterparts.

Not all have excellent academies, but obviously all produce better players than English counterparts who either produce expensive shit, or poach young players from other countries.