For a player like Torres who was once quality but is stil playing it will be hard to get people to think back to his Liverpool time. He has had 2/3 years of being a shadow of himself his time at Liverpool was his peak a short but devastating one. Even Michael Owen people won't remember his peak just the Owen here and at Stoke. It will be the retired greats and current stars who get the most votes i'd imagine.
The Redcafe Champions League Draft
- Thread starter Theon
- Start date
By that reckoning, and not that I disagree, but in the lone striker role, at their peaks, you would put Torres>VP?
Yet another thing that makes Giggs so special and unusual.
I think 4 seasons is a stretch - Torres excelled for about 2.5 seasons, during which time he was amongst the very best Europe had to offer. That's good enough for me as peak form - it's longer than just your typical one-season wonder. The likes of Mendieta and Veron had more extended peaks than that as well, e.g. 3-4 seasons at the top, so again that's definitely not a concern for me.
I pick mr reliable, Bacary Sagna.
Really ? There are a few non-CL winning players who would be considered better RB choices. IMO of course.
Mr what??? That's a stretch Ed he was solid/good for his first two seasons at Arsenal but he has struggled since his injury.
The Game: 1. Zidane 2. Seedorf 3. Shevchenko 4. Frank De Boer 5. Pires 6. Cocu 7. Ze Roberto 8. Lopez 9. Simic 10. Reuter 11. Baia
JakeC: 1. Messi 2. Cantona 3. Buffon 4. Roberto Carlos 5. Xabi Alonso 6. Puyol 7. Mascherano 8. Sagnol 9. Ljungberg 10. Chivu 11. Robinho
kps88: 1. Cristiano Ronaldo 2. Kohler 3. Davids 4. Vieri 5. Riquelme 6. Costacurta 7. Cambiasso 8. Salgado 9. Gonzalez 10. Heinze 11. Peruzzi
Thisistheone: 1. Ronaldo 2. Desailly 3. Rui Costa 4. Blanc 5. Essien 6. Dani Alves 7. Rooney 8. Paulo Sousa 9. Grosso 10. Barthez 11. Di Maria
Ralaks: 1. Keane 2. Del Piero 3. Effenberg 4. Beckham 5. Overmars 6. Ramos 7. Trezeguet 8. Piqué 9. Rafael 10. van der Sar 11. Capdevila
nahealai: 1. Xavi 2. Raúl 3. van Nistelrooy 4. Ballack 5. Busquets 6. Lizarazu 7. Irwin 8. Abidal 9. Kahn 10. Couto 11. Marchena
Stobzilla: 1. Henry 2. Stam 3. Totti 4. Gerrard 5. Veron 6. Mata 7. G. Neville 8. Mijatovic 9. Mihajlovic 10. Hyypia 11. Toldo
Feeky: 1. Maldini 2. Scholes 3. Bergkamp 4. Deschamps 5. Ibrahimovic 6. Y. Touré 7. David Silva 8. Lúcio 9. Marcelo 10. Casillas 11. Srna
akash02: 1. Romario 2. Cannavaro 3. Hagi 4. Guardiola 5. Lahm 6. McManaman 7. Petit 8. Chiellini 9. Baraja 10. Van Bronckhorst 11. Canizares
Gio: 1. Rivaldo 2. Nedved 3. Ferdinand 4. Zanetti 5. Fabregas 6. Zambrotta 7. Montero 8. Joaquin 9. Owen 10. Mauro Silva 11. Taffarel
Snow: 1. Ronaldinho 2. Kaka 3. Mendieta 4. Terry 5. Carvalho 6. A. Cole 7. Ozil 8. Gallas 9. Cech 10. Albelda 11. Torres
Isotope: 1. Redondo 2. Ribery 3. Eto'o 4. Albertini 5. Campbell 6. Boban 7. Forlan 8. Angloma 9. Kompany 10. Coentrao 11. Lehmann
EDogen: 1. Nesta 2. Giggs 3. Hierro 4. Van Persie 5. Enrique 6. Robben 7.Evra 8. Ferrara 9. Deco 10. Simeone 11. Sagna
Theon: 1. Iniesta 2. Pirlo 3. Cafu 4. Gattuso 5. De Rossi 6. Crespo 7. Aguero 8. Silva 9. Candela 10. Nadal
Fergus'son: 1. Batistuta 2. Thuram 3. Ayala 4. Makelele 5. Schweinsteiger 6. Moller. 7. Villa 8. Muller 9. Aimar 10. Samuel
BD/NM: 1. Vieira 2. Figo 3. Vidic 4. Drogba 5.Lampard 6. Popescu 7. Maicon 8. Gilberto 9. Giuly 10. Sergi
JakeC: 1. Messi 2. Cantona 3. Buffon 4. Roberto Carlos 5. Xabi Alonso 6. Puyol 7. Mascherano 8. Sagnol 9. Ljungberg 10. Chivu 11. Robinho
kps88: 1. Cristiano Ronaldo 2. Kohler 3. Davids 4. Vieri 5. Riquelme 6. Costacurta 7. Cambiasso 8. Salgado 9. Gonzalez 10. Heinze 11. Peruzzi
Thisistheone: 1. Ronaldo 2. Desailly 3. Rui Costa 4. Blanc 5. Essien 6. Dani Alves 7. Rooney 8. Paulo Sousa 9. Grosso 10. Barthez 11. Di Maria
Ralaks: 1. Keane 2. Del Piero 3. Effenberg 4. Beckham 5. Overmars 6. Ramos 7. Trezeguet 8. Piqué 9. Rafael 10. van der Sar 11. Capdevila
nahealai: 1. Xavi 2. Raúl 3. van Nistelrooy 4. Ballack 5. Busquets 6. Lizarazu 7. Irwin 8. Abidal 9. Kahn 10. Couto 11. Marchena
Stobzilla: 1. Henry 2. Stam 3. Totti 4. Gerrard 5. Veron 6. Mata 7. G. Neville 8. Mijatovic 9. Mihajlovic 10. Hyypia 11. Toldo
Feeky: 1. Maldini 2. Scholes 3. Bergkamp 4. Deschamps 5. Ibrahimovic 6. Y. Touré 7. David Silva 8. Lúcio 9. Marcelo 10. Casillas 11. Srna
akash02: 1. Romario 2. Cannavaro 3. Hagi 4. Guardiola 5. Lahm 6. McManaman 7. Petit 8. Chiellini 9. Baraja 10. Van Bronckhorst 11. Canizares
Gio: 1. Rivaldo 2. Nedved 3. Ferdinand 4. Zanetti 5. Fabregas 6. Zambrotta 7. Montero 8. Joaquin 9. Owen 10. Mauro Silva 11. Taffarel
Snow: 1. Ronaldinho 2. Kaka 3. Mendieta 4. Terry 5. Carvalho 6. A. Cole 7. Ozil 8. Gallas 9. Cech 10. Albelda 11. Torres
Isotope: 1. Redondo 2. Ribery 3. Eto'o 4. Albertini 5. Campbell 6. Boban 7. Forlan 8. Angloma 9. Kompany 10. Coentrao 11. Lehmann
EDogen: 1. Nesta 2. Giggs 3. Hierro 4. Van Persie 5. Enrique 6. Robben 7.Evra 8. Ferrara 9. Deco 10. Simeone 11. Sagna
Theon: 1. Iniesta 2. Pirlo 3. Cafu 4. Gattuso 5. De Rossi 6. Crespo 7. Aguero 8. Silva 9. Candela 10. Nadal
Fergus'son: 1. Batistuta 2. Thuram 3. Ayala 4. Makelele 5. Schweinsteiger 6. Moller. 7. Villa 8. Muller 9. Aimar 10. Samuel
BD/NM: 1. Vieira 2. Figo 3. Vidic 4. Drogba 5.Lampard 6. Popescu 7. Maicon 8. Gilberto 9. Giuly 10. Sergi
I know that both Ferrara and Enrique are superior to Sagna. But I wanted a defensive right back (non winner) as an alternative. There are some flashy offensive ones left but not what I wanted.
The really strange thing about your side is that Cech, Terry, Cole and Torres are being picked for peaks long before a flukey CL win. That must be quite a unique feat, for a set of players to win the CL more than half a decade after their peak (I've said it all along, it was Mourinho's work that won that CL for them).
Bloody hell, I was kidding when I said "Curtains for you"
Now there's one whose recent form is going to shoot out of the water...I see what you are trying to do, and you had little option. I actually put that case forward way before you picked Simeone. I think Sagna could have waited for 12th though, no one was ever going to pick him, and after the next pair of non-CL winning keepers the quality/familiarity gap starts being quite sizeable.
No not at all, like I said it depends on the tactic you want to use. Torres in his prime would have been amazing in the Dortmund side where the main offense is done in counter-attacks and they don't try to dominate possession.
However in a team who dominates possession the defensive line will fall back so there won't be a lot of space for him to run in to. That is why he was so damn dangerous against us, because we dominated the games and therefore had a high defensive line which he was brilliant at abusing.
RVP is good in the counter as well but he is more all-round and his style is more about his technique. He will certainly suffer when he loses a bit of pace(with his injury record he probably already has lost some compared to what he could have had.) but he has a lot to fall back on.
That is why Torres even during his "bad times at Chelsea" has scored a lot in Europe. When Chelsea are pushed back Torres excels and Mata/Oscar/Hazard are the opposite. I think that is the main problem with Torres time at Chelsea, that they don't fit each other at all.
3 possession dominating AM's and one striker who plays best in counters.
One that actually reminds me of Barthez, nothing to do with the blunder stuff. I mentioned in the 70s draft I thought Barthez' problem was he was a small framed athletic chap (for a keeper!) and those keepers don't age well at all. They are usually at their best before their 30s and retire soon after them, while the taller bigger framed (but not fat!) keepers tend to have ther best years post-30s.
Taffarel was somewhat similar to the former, I remember being in awe of him as far back as 1988. By the time he won the WC I no longer thought he was as special and he was never anywhere near his peak at Galatasaray, retiring soon after at about the same age as Barthez did. At Inter de Porto Alegre he was immense though, one game he had against Peñarol (when they were good and South American Champions) I would have down as the best goalkeeping display I've seen live and one of the top 5 altogether. I had been hearing about him but I went home royally pissed off that day thinking "bollocks, Brazil have a decent keeper for years to come, we are all fecked".
Roll on them winning the Copa America final against us the next year, Maradona-Caniggia and spiked beverages kicking them out in Italy, but the inevitable happening in '94.
Very good post, makes complete sense.
so... who is up?
Shit.. Zubizarreta isn't eligible
Aye, too old
I think there is only one proper top quality keeper left who hasn't won the CL, but it's one of those where causal voters probably wouldn't go for him!
Tempted to just go with a flavour of the month CL winning keeper
Tempted to just go with a flavour of the month CL winning keeper
No, he isn't, 16 games
That would have worked very well for you.
Edit: and age as well... your rules Theon!
Intrigued who you are thinking about as the non-CL one. The thing isn't casual voters going for him but will they think he is bound to be a liability?
@Theon's non-CL chap that voters wouldn't go for... He has 8 CL games man, your rules!!!!!Maybe you have to swallow the sour taste of the flavour of the month.
Maybe you have to swallow the sour taste of the flavour of the month.
He was a good keeper though!
Reckon my team is mixing with the best, hopefully get a good few games in.
No you can't that was the rule applied to everyone else.
Why should you be any different?
Certainly, would surely be gone by now! BTW, we are talking about Pagliuca.
Sour Kraut was one I had in mind when mystified about the Baia pick.
If Fergus takes the keeper I want, I'll be very sad
I will take Pepe Reina, premier league golden glove winner in his first three seasons in a row in England. He kept clean sheets in half of his first 220 games in England too, exceptional keeper in his prime and a non CL winner.
So,
I'm going to post ym first pick straight away - delighted to get him
Jari Litmanen.
Now BD and I will just make sure we are on the same page for keeper
I'm going to post ym first pick straight away - delighted to get him
Jari Litmanen.
Now BD and I will just make sure we are on the same page for keeper
I can't believe someone just called Reina an exceptional keeper.
I agree that Torres is at his best on the counter with space to run into but this isn't a true reflection of Liverpool/Torres v us. The majority of those games were fiercely contested, 50-50 games all over the park with Liverpool edging the midfield battle in many of these games. In his first season we beat them home and away with over 60% possession in both and IMO they were pretty much the only two games we dominated in his time there. The following season they beat us home and away and he did take us apart in that 4-1 win but he didn't even play in the other game. In 09/10 he scored that early header at OT which had nothing to do with a high line and then he scored that memorable goal when he shoved Rio out of the way. We remember Vidic getting sent off 3 times in a row and associate that with Torres but he only contributed to one of them. Realistically it was just two out of 6 games where he even played well against us - the 4-1 when he destroyed Vidic and the game with the great goal one-on-one with Rio.
Largely irrelevant point in this context but worth mentioning all the same. I definitely agree that part of the reason Torres has failed at Chelsea is the system they employ but I don't think that's the main reason. Certainly Benitez showed that he needed that kind of setup to get the best out of him but he was still very dangerous (in spurts) in a Spain setup which didn't complement his style at all.
I agree that Torres is at his best on the counter with space to run into but this isn't a true reflection of Liverpool/Torres v us. The majority of those games were fiercely contested, 50-50 games all over the park with Liverpool edging the midfield battle in many of these games. In his first season we beat them home and away with over 60% possession in both and IMO they were pretty much the only two games we dominated in his time there. The following season they beat us home and away and he did take us apart in that 4-1 win but he didn't even play in the other game. In 09/10 he scored that early header at OT which had nothing to do with a high line and then he scored that memorable goal when he shoved Rio out of the way. We remember Vidic getting sent off 3 times in a row and associate that with Torres but he only contributed to one of them. Realistically it was just two out of 6 games where he even played well against us - the 4-1 when he destroyed Vidic and the game with the great goal one-on-one with Rio.
Largely irrelevant point in this context but worth mentioning all the same. I definitely agree that part of the reason Torres has failed at Chelsea is the system they employ but I don't think that's the main reason. Certainly Benitez showed that he needed that kind of setup to get the best out of him but he was still very dangerous (in spurts) in a Spain setup which didn't complement his style at all.
Exceptional keeper in his prime.
Who was that piece of shit you had in the Serie A draft? You certainly sold him well!
Who was that piece of shit you had in the Serie A draft? You certainly sold him well!
Have you decided on a formation yet mate? Trying to work out if you're going for a 4-3-3 with Villa and Muller flanking Batistuta or a 4-2-2-2 type set up with two of Muller/Moller/Aimar behind Villa and Batistuta! Either way your's is going to be a tough defensive unit to break down.
So,
I'm going to post ym first pick straight away - delighted to get him
Jari Litmanen.
Now BD and I will just make sure we are on the same page for keeper
Glad someone picked him, would've been a travesty were he not part of the draft in some way!
keeper:
Hugo Lloris. Somebody please put a pick and update as I'm at work
Hugo Lloris. Somebody please put a pick and update as I'm at work
Leaning towards the 433 at the moment mate, Villa left, Muller right, and either Aimar or Moller supporting Batistuta.
You have any thoughts about my team?
To finish off our drafting, we'll take Lloris
The Game: 1. Zidane 2. Seedorf 3. Shevchenko 4. Frank De Boer 5. Pires 6. Cocu 7. Ze Roberto 8. Lopez 9. Simic 10. Reuter 11. Baia
JakeC: 1. Messi 2. Cantona 3. Buffon 4. Roberto Carlos 5. Xabi Alonso 6. Puyol 7. Mascherano 8. Sagnol 9. Ljungberg 10. Chivu 11. Robinho
kps88: 1. Cristiano Ronaldo 2. Kohler 3. Davids 4. Vieri 5. Riquelme 6. Costacurta 7. Cambiasso 8. Salgado 9. Gonzalez 10. Heinze 11. Peruzzi
Thisistheone: 1. Ronaldo 2. Desailly 3. Rui Costa 4. Blanc 5. Essien 6. Dani Alves 7. Rooney 8. Paulo Sousa 9. Grosso 10. Barthez 11. Di Maria
Ralaks: 1. Keane 2. Del Piero 3. Effenberg 4. Beckham 5. Overmars 6. Ramos 7. Trezeguet 8. Piqué 9. Rafael 10. van der Sar 11. Capdevila
nahealai: 1. Xavi 2. Raúl 3. van Nistelrooy 4. Ballack 5. Busquets 6. Lizarazu 7. Irwin 8. Abidal 9. Kahn 10. Couto 11. Marchena
Stobzilla: 1. Henry 2. Stam 3. Totti 4. Gerrard 5. Veron 6. Mata 7. G. Neville 8. Mijatovic 9. Mihajlovic 10. Hyypia 11. Toldo
Feeky: 1. Maldini 2. Scholes 3. Bergkamp 4. Deschamps 5. Ibrahimovic 6. Y. Touré 7. David Silva 8. Lúcio 9. Marcelo 10. Casillas 11. Srna
akash02: 1. Romario 2. Cannavaro 3. Hagi 4. Guardiola 5. Lahm 6. McManaman 7. Petit 8. Chiellini 9. Baraja 10. Van Bronckhorst 11. Canizares
Gio: 1. Rivaldo 2. Nedved 3. Ferdinand 4. Zanetti 5. Fabregas 6. Zambrotta 7. Montero 8. Joaquin 9. Owen 10. Mauro Silva 11. Taffarel
Snow: 1. Ronaldinho 2. Kaka 3. Mendieta 4. Terry 5. Carvalho 6. A. Cole 7. Ozil 8. Gallas 9. Cech 10. Albelda 11. Torres
Isotope: 1. Redondo 2. Ribery 3. Eto'o 4. Albertini 5. Campbell 6. Boban 7. Forlan 8. Angloma 9. Kompany 10. Coentrao 11. Lehmann
EDogen: 1. Nesta 2. Giggs 3. Hierro 4. Van Persie 5. Enrique 6. Robben 7.Evra 8. Ferrara 9. Deco 10. Simeone 11. Sagna
Theon: 1. Iniesta 2. Pirlo 3. Cafu 4. Gattuso 5. De Rossi 6. Crespo 7. Aguero 8. Silva 9. Candela 10. Nadal 11. Neuer
Fergus'son: 1. Batistuta 2. Thuram 3. Ayala 4. Makelele 5. Schweinsteiger 6. Moller. 7. Villa 8. Muller 9. Aimar 10. Samuel 11. Reina
BD/NM: 1. Vieira 2. Figo 3. Vidic 4. Drogba 5.Lampard 6. Popescu 7. Maicon 8. Gilberto 9. Giuly 10. Sergi 11.Litmanen 12. LLoris
The Game: 1. Zidane 2. Seedorf 3. Shevchenko 4. Frank De Boer 5. Pires 6. Cocu 7. Ze Roberto 8. Lopez 9. Simic 10. Reuter 11. Baia
JakeC: 1. Messi 2. Cantona 3. Buffon 4. Roberto Carlos 5. Xabi Alonso 6. Puyol 7. Mascherano 8. Sagnol 9. Ljungberg 10. Chivu 11. Robinho
kps88: 1. Cristiano Ronaldo 2. Kohler 3. Davids 4. Vieri 5. Riquelme 6. Costacurta 7. Cambiasso 8. Salgado 9. Gonzalez 10. Heinze 11. Peruzzi
Thisistheone: 1. Ronaldo 2. Desailly 3. Rui Costa 4. Blanc 5. Essien 6. Dani Alves 7. Rooney 8. Paulo Sousa 9. Grosso 10. Barthez 11. Di Maria
Ralaks: 1. Keane 2. Del Piero 3. Effenberg 4. Beckham 5. Overmars 6. Ramos 7. Trezeguet 8. Piqué 9. Rafael 10. van der Sar 11. Capdevila
nahealai: 1. Xavi 2. Raúl 3. van Nistelrooy 4. Ballack 5. Busquets 6. Lizarazu 7. Irwin 8. Abidal 9. Kahn 10. Couto 11. Marchena
Stobzilla: 1. Henry 2. Stam 3. Totti 4. Gerrard 5. Veron 6. Mata 7. G. Neville 8. Mijatovic 9. Mihajlovic 10. Hyypia 11. Toldo
Feeky: 1. Maldini 2. Scholes 3. Bergkamp 4. Deschamps 5. Ibrahimovic 6. Y. Touré 7. David Silva 8. Lúcio 9. Marcelo 10. Casillas 11. Srna
akash02: 1. Romario 2. Cannavaro 3. Hagi 4. Guardiola 5. Lahm 6. McManaman 7. Petit 8. Chiellini 9. Baraja 10. Van Bronckhorst 11. Canizares
Gio: 1. Rivaldo 2. Nedved 3. Ferdinand 4. Zanetti 5. Fabregas 6. Zambrotta 7. Montero 8. Joaquin 9. Owen 10. Mauro Silva 11. Taffarel
Snow: 1. Ronaldinho 2. Kaka 3. Mendieta 4. Terry 5. Carvalho 6. A. Cole 7. Ozil 8. Gallas 9. Cech 10. Albelda 11. Torres
Isotope: 1. Redondo 2. Ribery 3. Eto'o 4. Albertini 5. Campbell 6. Boban 7. Forlan 8. Angloma 9. Kompany 10. Coentrao 11. Lehmann
EDogen: 1. Nesta 2. Giggs 3. Hierro 4. Van Persie 5. Enrique 6. Robben 7.Evra 8. Ferrara 9. Deco 10. Simeone 11. Sagna
Theon: 1. Iniesta 2. Pirlo 3. Cafu 4. Gattuso 5. De Rossi 6. Crespo 7. Aguero 8. Silva 9. Candela 10. Nadal 11. Neuer
Fergus'son: 1. Batistuta 2. Thuram 3. Ayala 4. Makelele 5. Schweinsteiger 6. Moller. 7. Villa 8. Muller 9. Aimar 10. Samuel 11. Reina
BD/NM: 1. Vieira 2. Figo 3. Vidic 4. Drogba 5.Lampard 6. Popescu 7. Maicon 8. Gilberto 9. Giuly 10. Sergi 11.Litmanen 12. LLoris
Lloris looks really French
Look at him here, such a typical Frenchy
Look at him here, such a typical Frenchy
Now I will get the keeper I wanted. A non winner it is.
Very strong in every area. I think exceptional is a bit of a stretch for Reina, but your defensive line is outstanding so far and you've got a very powerful central midfield in front of them. Loads of goals up front and a fair amount of creativity. Part of me feels Villa is slightly wasted on the left but then again he's played his part for Barca there and excelled for Spain at a major tournament in that position.
I sold him well because nobody knew him! You don't have that luxury with Reina. Top keeper for sure though.
I can't even tell you his name to be honest. Antohan will remember I'm sure.