The RedCafe Boxing Thread

Glorio said:
By your argument, you could mention any rando and say these two won't be able to handle him.

There are so many fighters between the level of opponents Kabayel has fought and these 2. He will have to prove he's worthy of stepping into a ring with them by beating those guys. In my opinion, both these fighters have way superior footwork, engines, and general ring craft, they'll dance rings round him.
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Nah, that's a straw man - Kabayal isn't a random. He's beaten a couple of decent names of late, undefeated guys, punchers, not guys you'd be queuing your prospect up to face- particularly last night was a good scalp for him. There's a reason he was on the bill, he isn't far off getting into contention for a title shot by merit so using this idea of a random is silly.

Of course it's a huge step but anyone that ever makes it to title level against an elite name takes it. What he needs is to face a Joseph Parker level fighter. Or Dillian Whyte would be ideal for him as Dillian is vulnerable at the moment but still a name. He's one or two fights away at most.

I think Fury might be close to done. Last night wasn't a bad performance by any means but again he's nearly finished and this time against a moderate puncher. That's twice in a row he's been on his last legs against two guys there isn't reason to be. One fight he's scraped by against an MMA guy and one he's fairly convincingly lost. Every sign is there now, it will be no surprise if he loses badly next time as he's got further difficult miles on the clock.
 
Thought it was a very entertaining fight - not much clinching or hiding.

Also thought it was very close but Usyk 7-5 to me and also had a knockdown.
 
There’s a hierarchical pyramid to the sport - of course there’s younger promising fighters who are looking the biscuit and will eventually be at the top of the pyramid.

But you throw someone young and promising into the ring with Fury or Usyk and they get rocked, and lose some legitimacy.

There’s always a pool of “gatekeepers” in the HW division. People who aren’t champions but seem to float just below the belt holders. There’s plenty who aren’t just fight fodder for champions, they’re good fighters but don’t have that next level in them. That’s who the young lads should be chomping to get a fight with when ready.

Don’t run before you walk. Yeah eventually these young lads will be top, but eventually isn’t now.
 
Watching the fight again with the spectacle side of things to one side and my biggest takeaway was that a prime Lennox Lewis vs Usyk would have been an all-timer fight.

feck AI, invent something that lets that happen.
 
Great fight, very competitive and I feared the fix was in when the cards were read. Very glad to see the right guy got the decision. As close and competitive as it was, I just can’t see how Fury won 7 rounds. I think, aside from R9, Fury’s round wins were probably clearer, but there was only 2-3 of them.

Fury seemed to have made the right adjustments around R3 and was causing Usyk huge problems, but Tyson simply couldn’t sustain his attacks to get close to getting him out of there, and that was his downfall. Usyk always had another gear that Fury simply didn’t.

I also think the ref probably should have stopped it in R9, if it were the other way around with the big guy knocking the little guy around the ring he almost certainly would have. He also give him a few additional moments after the 8 count to steady himself and Fury was very groggy. Seen fighters stopped for much less.
 
SambaBoy said:
Thought it was a very entertaining fight - not much clinching or hiding.
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This was Fury's biggest mistake surely. He's not there to put on a show for the fans, he's there to win. Every time Usyk gets close he should be tying him up and hitting him in the clinch and push the rules to the absolute limits and push the referee's leniency to the absolute limit.

He was over-confident that he could sit on the ropes like he does to his inferior opponents but has overlooked Usyk can actually land shots in situations where inferior boxers would usually be hitting air. And it cost Fury many close rounds.

The jab, uppercut and body shots were effective in Fury's best rounds but he just wasn't consistent enough in his actions across the 12 rounds. Every time he hit Usyk on the beltline he either winced or complained to the ref that it was low, or both. I'll have to rewatch but it felt like he took a few rounds to start implementing his most effective weapons, and from round 8 onwards he completely got away even attempting what was bringing him success earlier.

Part of it is mental fatigue I'm sure from as Usyk's pressure is insane but if he comes in with the right mentality of avoiding the ropes, clinching, and consistent use of his most effective weapons then he still has a chance of sneaking a decision next time.
 
Abraxas said:
Nah, that's a straw man - Kabayal isn't a random. He's beaten a couple of decent names of late, undefeated guys, punchers, not guys you'd be queuing your prospect up to face- particularly last night was a good scalp for him. There's a reason he was on the bill, he isn't far off getting into contention for a title shot by merit so using this idea of a random is silly.

Of course it's a huge step but anyone that ever makes it to title level against an elite name takes it. What he needs is to face a Joseph Parker level fighter. Or Dillian Whyte would be ideal for him as Dillian is vulnerable at the moment but still a name. He's one or two fights away at most.

I think Fury might be close to done. Last night wasn't a bad performance by any means but again he's nearly finished and this time against a moderate puncher. That's twice in a row he's been on his last legs against two guys there isn't reason to be. One fight he's scraped by against an MMA guy and one he's fairly convincingly lost. Every sign is there now, it will be no surprise if he loses badly next time as he's got further difficult miles on the clock.
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Kabayal is decent but based on some of these posts, most definitely being over-rated a little based. 2 very good performances and he's done himself no harm, but never of these men had proven themselves to be contenders. And as Lewis pointed out on the broadcast - there's a good chance Sanchez shouldn't really have been in there with the obvious knee issue.

Let's see him step-up again before we start talking about him in with the likes of Usyk, Fury, AJ - none of whom I'd expect to have major issues with him.

Bakole would be good. Not sure it makes sense from a rankings standpoint as this was a WBC eliminator, though he should be high up with the WBA now as well (where Bakole is #1).
 
DannyCAFC said:
Kabayal is decent but based on some of these posts, most definitely being over-rated a little based. 2 very good performances and he's done himself no harm, but never of these men had proven themselves to be contenders. And as Lewis pointed out on the broadcast - there's a good chance Sanchez shouldn't really have been in there with the obvious knee issue.

Let's see him step-up again before we start talking about him in with the likes of Usyk, Fury, AJ - none of whom I'd expect to have major issues with him.

Bakole would be good. Not sure it makes sense from a rankings standpoint as this was a WBC eliminator, though he should be high up with the WBA now as well (where Bakole is #1).
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Watching Itaume and then Kabayal… there’s only one future unified HW champ and it ain’t Kabayal or Bakole..
 
Dirty Schwein said:
Out of curiosity, who are considered the p4p GOATs in boxing?
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Sugar Ray Robinson is universally acknowledged as the greatest but after him the list can get muddy and to be honest pretty dependent on how well you still rate the old timers from bygone times.

You'd got the likes of duran from the more modern times and say someone like Joe gans from way back whom I believe we don't have much footage if at all so you get the gist.
Revan said:
Foreman was at 218lbs vs Ali, so lighter than Usyk yesterday. And they are the same height.

Bowe was at 240 vs Holyfield, just 7lbs than Usyk yesterday.

Lewis at 246lbs.

I think people miss how big the heavyweights are nowadays, that what are considered historical bigs are essentially same weight/height as Usyk, and quite a bit smaller than Fury.

I think he defeats everyone you mentioned in this era. Parker and Ruiz are significantly worse than him and do not have any height advantage (Ruiz has fat advantage though). Wilder is finished. Hergovic and Zhang might be interested but I think Usyk has too much skill for them, would easily outpoint Zhang.
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The weight difference and how much lighter the 70s boxers were could be pretty much attributed to the different outlook on training and endurance, they knew it could go to 15 rounds and prepared accordingly, so someone like foreman had he been around currently would be much heavier and as we saw when he made his comeback in the 90s would have absolutely no problem flooring guys left and right again.

Also another thing to mention is that I'm pretty sure all the top guys from 80s onwards were juiced to the gills.
 
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Snowjoe said:
If the only reason you’re still standing is because the ropes are holding you up it’s ruled a knockdown, which is why the referee intervened instead of letting him continue to be pummelled. So essentially he got a count as if he was knocked down, because by the rules he was.
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That explains it, thanks. Makes sense, I just don’t recall seeing it happen before. The ref probably could have stopped it there, but I wonder if Fury’s prior powers of recovery factored into his decision to give him the count.
 
I'm surprised people wanted it to be stop there. The ref saw the knockdown (ropes holding him up) and gave him a count, albeit slow one. I believe there was less than 10 seconds anyway in the round ? I and the boxers im sure don't want a legacy defining unification fight decided by a referee intervening. Fury was hurt yes but i don't think overly dangerously so.
 
Gringo said:
I'm surprised people wanted it to be stop there. The ref saw the knockdown (ropes holding him up) and gave him a count, albeit slow one. I believe there was less than 10 seconds anyway in the round ? I and the boxers im sure don't want a legacy defining unification fight decided by a referee intervening. Fury was hurt yes but i don't think overly dangerously so.
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Those calls surprised me too, I feel like a ref needs to step in when a fighter is showing signs of being incapacitated or unable to defend themselves.

Fury got rocked and lost his equilibrium that's a vast difference. Came out well (by comparison) the following round which points towards him being dazed more than anything else.
 
Gringo said:
I'm surprised people wanted it to be stop there. The ref saw the knockdown (ropes holding him up) and gave him a count, albeit slow one. I believe there was less than 10 seconds anyway in the round ? I and the boxers im sure don't want a legacy defining unification fight decided by a referee intervening. Fury was hurt yes but i don't think overly dangerously so.
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Redstain said:
Those calls surprised me too, I feel like a ref needs to step in when a fighter is showing signs of being incapacitated or unable to defend themselves.

Fury got rocked and lost his equilibrium that's a vast difference. Came out well (by comparison) the following round which points towards him being dazed more than anything else.
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He was all over the place with his hands down, it was probably only his sheer size and the fact he was falling over that prevented Usyk from getting a very good final connection. I’m not saying it was a certain stoppage, but we have seen fights stopped for far less.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7IRPbmPa2z/?igsh=dmd6YWtnZ29obGk4
 
youngrell said:
He was all over the place with his hands down, it was probably only his sheer size and the fact he was falling over that prevented Usyk from getting a very good final connection. I’m not saying it was a certain stoppage, but we have seen fights stopped for far less.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7IRPbmPa2z/?igsh=dmd6YWtnZ29obGk4
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I think that's the original point, though, the magnitude of the fight was key. It was between two undefeated fighters. The refs MO was to keep it going as long as possible (within reason).

Fury was clearly hurt but was also using the ropes strategically to absorb any punches until he got caught clean again. It was good reffing in my view.

In any case, he was on steady legs by the next round so it was the right decision.
 
Woziak said:
And that’s my point fantastic p4p fighter but he’s had 6 heavyweight fights?
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When you break it down though - those who are considered as ATG in the heavyweight division - how many of there fights are considered really impressive?

Normally in an ATG career, you'd probably have 4-8 fights that are the real making of a fighter. The rest are just building up to that, moving through the levels etc. Usyk has had 3 of them fights at HW - and numerous ones at cruiserweight.

He rose through the cruiserweight rankings as quickly as he could, entered the WBSS and won it convincingly in only his 15th pro fight - compare that to most people's resume and it's very impressive. The whole Gassiev v Usyk fight was billed as a 50/50 fight and Usyk dominated throughout. There was nothing else for him to achieve at cruiserweight so he made the decision to step up.

Many people questioned it in terms of his height/power. He faced criticism even at cruiser for his lack of punch power - hence why people were favouring Gassiev in the lead up to that fight. I think if you look at his career so far, I don't think he could have taken any different steps to be more impressive than he has been.
 
Thrilled Usyk won. Couldn't watch it as I was alcohol deep at a stag-do.

Absolutely loved Usyk ever since seeing him in early cruiserweight days.
Hope people finally put some respect on his name.
 
SambaBoy said:
When you break it down though - those who are considered as ATG in the heavyweight division - how many of there fights are considered really impressive?

Normally in an ATG career, you'd probably have 4-8 fights that are the real making of a fighter. The rest are just building up to that, moving through the levels etc. Usyk has had 3 of them fights at HW - and numerous ones at cruiserweight.

He rose through the cruiserweight rankings as quickly as he could, entered the WBSS and won it convincingly in only his 15th pro fight - compare that to most people's resume and it's very impressive. The whole Gassiev v Usyk fight was billed as a 50/50 fight and Usyk dominated throughout. There was nothing else for him to achieve at cruiserweight so he made the decision to step up.

Many people questioned it in terms of his height/power. He faced criticism even at cruiser for his lack of punch power - hence why people were favouring Gassiev in the lead up to that fight. I think if you look at his career so far, I don't think he could have taken any different steps to be more impressive than he has been.
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For example, the heavyweight GOAT, Ali in his peak fought Fraizer (3 times), Foreman, Liston (twice), Patterson (twice), Spinks (twice), Norton (3 times), Moore. These guys were all champions or previous champions and most of them rank high in all-time lists. Most of them rank higher than Fury, let alone Joshua.

I think that Usyk is the best heavyweight since Lewis though.
 
Revan said:
For example, the heavyweight GOAT, Ali in his peak fought Fraizer (3 times), Foreman, Liston (twice), Patterson (twice), Spinks (twice), Norton (3 times), Moore. These guys were all champions or previous champions and most of them rank high in all-time lists. Most of them rank higher than Fury, let alone Joshua.

I think that Usyk is the best heavyweight since Lewis though.
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Can't really blame Usyk for the nature of the boxing "business" today though. He's one fighter that has entertained all takers and beaten them all convincingly.

I don't think it's in his nature to duck anyone. A lot of boxing is about footwork and when you look at Usyk's, you've got to say, he's up there with some of the best we've seen.

It's pointless comparing fighters from different eras, but my word, the man is quality.
Fury is a giant and a very technical heavyweight, considered the absolute best of the bunch by many and yet I was pretty sure Usyk (who was a cruiserweight not too long ago) would win.
 
T00lsh3d said:
Who’s your money on?
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I'd go for Catterall judging his previous performance against Taylor and Josh looked awful against Lopez a shadow of his former self.

Reckon he should have moved up to the 147 division, looks in shape but physically weak it's showed his last few fights and given his frame could probably even be a junior middleweight.
 
Rooting for Catterall but not sure he is doing enough
 
Ironic if catterall won because this fight was a lot closer than the one he ‘lost’
 
Catterall wins. Wide scorecards though
 
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