The RedCafe Boxing Thread

Rams said:
Forget Fury, Usyk, Anderson, Sanche or whoever, Moses Itauma is the next big thing in the heavy weight boxing World. Best heavy weight I’ve seen since a teenage Mike Tyson.
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I agree that that kid is amazing. Only 18 years old too. Maybe the best young talent in boxing. Definitely the best young HW. Excited to see where he can go. He's not huge by modern HW standards, but he's certainly not small either, 6'6", so three inches taller than Usyk. And he already weighs in at about 235lbs. Thing about him though, is that he has the hand speed of a much smaller fighter, he's very Tyson-esque in terms of his speed, and that speed at his weight and size, produces a lot of power. His uppercuts in particular are very eye catching.

Excited to see where he can go in the sport.
 
Plastic Evra said:
And now Usyk insists the contract says December 23 for their fight, as just after the Ngannou fight there were suddenly voices to suggest postponing that fight by a month...

Scheduling Fury with just two months apart between Ngannou and Usyk seems somewhat risky in hindsight.
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No date has ever been set in stone but he’s bound to say that with Fury having a tougher time than expected on Saturday. He’ll need at least a week off now too.

I don’t blame Usyk but he said he always has a 14 week camp a couple of weeks ago.
 
Dan_F said:
Parker/Povetkin vs Sefri/Pianeta in 2018.
Ruiz/Pulev vs Schwarz/Wallin in 2019.
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He fought Sefer and Pianeta after a 3 year layoff, dropping 10 stone and cocaine and alcohol addiction. Who did you expect him to come back against? Whether you hate him or not, you can’t use this as a stick to beat him with.

I don’t get why Ruiz is held up as some sort of yardstick either; his biggest claim to fame prior to Joshua was going 12 round with Joe Parker. He’s referenced as ‘world class’ because he knocked out Joshua. He then spent the time between their first and second fight in the boozer.

You’re also a bit inconsistent in who you consider to be credible - Otto Wallin keeps being mentioned as a potential AJ opponent by Fast Eddie in 2023 and if you consider Whyte to be embarrassing, why was AJ fighting him in August prior to his failed test?

Outside the top guys, it’s not a good weight class in terms of quality. If you’re using the likes of Kubrat Pulev as a barometer to judge the legitimacy of someone’s record, then your argument fails.

There’s context to everything which tends to get warped dependent on people’s preference for a fighter; e.g Klitschko was past it or had personal issues when Fury beat him, whereas Joshua gets credit for going life and death with him down the line, Wilder hasn’t fought anyone and is limited but is considered the most dangerous puncher around when they are trying to match him with AJ now. You can’t have it both ways.

Are you really that bothered that Fury has fought Ngannou when he is fighting Usyk for the undisputed title next?
 
G-manc said:
No date has ever been set in stone but he’s bound to say that with Fury having a tougher time than expected on Saturday. He’ll need at least a week off now too.

I don’t blame Usyk but he said he always has a 14 week camp a couple of weeks ago.
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Fury himself said 23rd was set in stone and he would sue Usyk for backing out while the Usyk comments were a bad translation
 
pocco said:
Why didn't AJ fight Wilder? Fury did, 3 times in fact. That was the fight everybody wanted for AJ. Its 2023 and he's fighting Helenius and Jermaine Franklin :lol: AJ actually stopped being the pinnacle of boxing when he fought half decent fighters and the casuals realised he's shit. They should have realised that when he was losing to B level fighters like Ruiz, and struggling with the likes of Takam and Povetkin. I find it hard to believe Fury ducks certain fighters when he was the first of these lot to take on Wlad and beat him, which nobody believed he could do. Then he faced Wilder who nobody decent would touch as they wanted to protect their 0.

The names on AJs resume aren't exactly HoF level either and that's because most fighters in the division are useless. Pulev isn't a top level fighter or anywhere near it. Povetkin is OK but not great.
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Fury is miles better than AJ, its not a push to say AJ's record is better though Fury in my view has fought two guys that are good and one of those he fought 3 times and the third fight was a bit of a joke as he'd already "beaten" the fella x2
 
G-manc said:
He fought Sefer and Pianeta after a 3 year layoff, dropping 10 stone and cocaine and alcohol addiction. Who did you expect him to come back against? Whether you hate him or not, you can’t use this as a stick to beat him with.

I don’t get why Ruiz is held up as some sort of yardstick either; his biggest claim to fame prior to Joshua was going 12 round with Joe Parker. He’s referenced as ‘world class’ because he knocked out Joshua. He then spent the time between their first and second fight in the boozer.

You’re also a bit inconsistent in who you consider to be credible - Otto Wallin keeps being mentioned as a potential AJ opponent by Fast Eddie in 2023 and if you consider Whyte to be embarrassing, why was AJ fighting him in August prior to his failed test?

Outside the top guys, it’s not a good weight class in terms of quality. If you’re using the likes of Kubrat Pulev as a barometer to judge the legitimacy of someone’s record, then your argument fails.

There’s context to everything which tends to get warped dependent on people’s preference for a fighter; e.g Klitschko was past it or had personal issues when Fury beat him, whereas Joshua gets credit for going life and death with him down the line, Wilder hasn’t fought anyone and is limited but is considered the most dangerous puncher around when they are trying to match him with AJ now. You can’t have it both ways.

Are you really that bothered that Fury has fought Ngannou when he is fighting Usyk for the undisputed title next?
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I fully understand Fury’s reasons for taking easy fights coming off the lay off, however, those are two fights on his record while AJ was fighting harder opponents. You don’t get to be discussed as the best ever because you took three years off due to mental health issues and had to take easier fights. I’m afraid that Pulev and Povetkin are just flat out better than Fury’s other opponents, regardless of how well you rate them.

I don’t really see the relevance of who AJ is trying to fight now. Fury is the world champion, AJ had some devastating losses and is trying to rebuild his career. No one is trying to claim AJ as being up with the best heavyweights ever.

Let’s see if Fury does win a couple of fights against Usyk, I have zero faith that they won’t rematch the Ngannou fight next. Hopefully AJ wins a Wilder fight and fights Fury at some point. At that point we can start discussing whether Tyson is top 10.
 
G-manc said:
No date has ever been set in stone but he’s bound to say that with Fury having a tougher time than expected on Saturday. He’ll need at least a week off now too.

I don’t blame Usyk but he said he always has a 14 week camp a couple of weeks ago.
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It's boxing so who knows what is actually set or not despite claims. Dec. 23 seemed to be an agreed date for both sides, we'll see if it holds. Naively I'd agree pushing it back a but is probably the best to hope to have the two at their best... But like many there's always the suspicion Fury might back out that fight.

I wouldn't be shocked a Ngannou rematch would pay more than fighting Usyk too. I think Ngannou will tend to his contractual PFL MMA match -though it maybe depends who they can have in front of him- before perhaps making another foray in boxing. I'd rather he fight someone else, if I had to choose.
 
If Fury fights and beats Usyk I will give him huge props. But I don't think the fight will happen.
 
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I think Francis could have a real go at the heavyweight division.

I think if other mma fighters come in to boxing at lower weights they will have no chance. For example someone coming in at welterweight the skills gap would be way to much for them, but at heavyweight where you can rely on power more he might be okay.

Look at Wilder, he's a former wbc champion and his boxing skills are poor but he has raw power.
 
Not that there’d necessarily be a big market for it, but I’d fancy seeing Dubois vs Ngannou.
Both coming off surprisingly decent performances against the big two, it’d be a good learning fight for Francis but considering what’s just happened it’d also be a decent win for Dubois.
Plus it’d probably be pretty entertaining with someone going to the shadow realm
 
Plastic Evra said:
Lot of hand wringing over "The State of Boxing™" but it might actually be good for boxing to see more popular MMA fighters jump in and bring new eyes on the Sweet Science.
I don't think most people are really satisfied with the state of the HW division anyway ? Let fresh blood in.
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Boxing has been the best it's been in years this year. To casuals the sport dying but for the genuine fans there's been terrific bouts from start to finish this annum. Mostly every division has shined with the exception of the heavyweight:

Inoue / Fulton,
Haney / Loma (Prograis in December)
Benavidez / Plant
Teofimo / Taylor
Beterbiev / Yarde
Crawford / Spence
Munguia / Derevyanchenko,
Rakhimov / Cordina
Gervonta / Garcia (casual)
Zhang / Joyce (good fight).
Andrade / Benavidez (In November)
 
Eddie Hearn saying Francis should rematch Fury if Fury doesn't fight Usyk but if he does then Francis should fight Joshua. Funny seeing how they didn't want a part of Francis because it was a "gimmick" and now they are pretty much begging to fight him.
 
flameinthesun said:
Eddie Hearn saying Francis should rematch Fury if Fury doesn't fight Usyk but if he does then Francis should fight Joshua. Funny seeing how they didn't want a part of Francis because it was a "gimmick" and now they are pretty much begging to fight him.
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Laughable. I reckon he could beat AJ though - Hearn would be best suited not going down that road.
 
Redstain said:
Boxing has been the best it's been in years this year. To casuals the sport dying but for the genuine fans there's been terrific bouts from start to finish this annum. Mostly every division has shined with the exception of the heavyweight:

Inoue / Fulton,
Haney / Loma (Prograis in December)
Benavidez / Plant
Teofimo / Taylor
Beterbiev / Yarde
Crawford / Spence
Munguia / Derevyanchenko,
Rakhimov / Cordina
Gervonta / Garcia (casual)
Zhang / Joyce (good fight).
Andrade / Benavidez (In November)
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There are still some great fights out there. I think the majority of this discussion is relating to the HW division and how the names aren't there for Fury to put himself in the HoF picture. His or any current HWs record will never stack up against those of years gone by. It's not Fury or anybody else's fault though.
 
Dan_F said:
I fully understand Fury’s reasons for taking easy fights coming off the lay off, however, those are two fights on his record while AJ was fighting harder opponents. You don’t get to be discussed as the best ever because you took three years off due to mental health issues and had to take easier fights. I’m afraid that Pulev and Povetkin are just flat out better than Fury’s other opponents, regardless of how well you rate them.

I don’t really see the relevance of who AJ is trying to fight now. Fury is the world champion, AJ had some devastating losses and is trying to rebuild his career. No one is trying to claim AJ as being up with the best heavyweights ever.

Let’s see if Fury does win a couple of fights against Usyk, I have zero faith that they won’t rematch the Ngannou fight next. Hopefully AJ wins a Wilder fight and fights Fury at some point. At that point we can start discussing whether Tyson is top 10.
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Is anybody claiming Fury the best ever? You've now made this discussion into that just to downplay Fury. Earlier you made it a Fury's opponents vs AJ's opponents argument. Which is pointless because everybody can see that Fury is/was the better boxer between those two.
 
pocco said:
Is anybody claiming Fury the best ever? You've now made this discussion into that just to downplay Fury. Earlier you made it a Fury's opponents vs AJ's opponents argument. Which is pointless because everybody can see that Fury is/was the better boxer between those two.
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Yes. Before the fight I posted a quote in this thread about a BBC article which was claiming that Tyson, with a win, would move into the discussion of greatest ever. There is always noise on social media (granted this means nothing) about where he sits on that list of best ever.

I’m discussing quality of opponents because his list of opponents is quite poor compared to a seemingly average heavyweight in AJ, let alone some of the best ever. I don’t see how it’s possible to make a judgement on Fury’s GOAT claim when his third best opponent is arguably Dillian Whyte.

It seems to me that since the Wlad fight, Fury has never taken the hardest fight available at that time. Hopefully he disproves this with Usyk, but I honestly won’t believe it’s happening until they’re in the ring beforehand.
 
flameinthesun said:
Eddie Hearn saying Francis should rematch Fury if Fury doesn't fight Usyk but if he does then Francis should fight Joshua. Funny seeing how they didn't want a part of Francis because it was a "gimmick" and now they are pretty much begging to fight him.
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Because he's going to be box office simply for the fact a head could come off at any time. Really bad idea for Joshua...
 
Dan_F said:
Yes. Before the fight I posted a quote in this thread about a BBC article which was claiming that Tyson, with a win, would move into the discussion of greatest ever. There is always noise on social media (granted this means nothing) about where he sits on that list of best ever.

I’m discussing quality of opponents because his list of opponents is quite poor compared to a seemingly average heavyweight in AJ, let alone some of the best ever. I don’t see how it’s possible to make a judgement on Fury’s GOAT claim when his third best opponent is arguably Dillian Whyte.

It seems to me that since the Wlad fight, Fury has never taken the hardest fight available at that time. Hopefully he disproves this with Usyk, but I honestly won’t believe it’s happening until they’re in the ring beforehand.
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I think he'll fight Usyk, but December is pushing it now. Even if he beats Usyk, a blown up cruiser, does that put him in GOAT discussions? Rightly or wrongly, and as much as I rate Fury, that will be difficult due to the lack of quality at HW.

Usyk fight is being built up as some gatekeeper for the pinnacle of boxing. If you really stop and think about that, it tells you a lot. And I'm obviously not trying to discredit Fury, I really rate him highly, but he'll never have the names on his CV that the greats have. AJ, Wilder, Usyk isn't enough really. Wlad is the only one. He could have done to beat 3 or 4 guys of his calibre, but they're just not there.
 
If Usyk had slightly more power this would be a forgone conclusion. That being said, whilst Fury remains awkwardly hard to hit, when he does get hit he doesn’t take it well
 
T00lsh3d said:
If Usyk had slightly more power this would be a forgone conclusion. That being said, whilst Fury remains awkwardly hard to hit, when he does get hit he doesn’t take it well
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He doesn't but his powers of recovery are pretty insane.
 
Think we will see Fury go defensive for this fight, keeping it long, using the jab, switching to southpaw, etc. He's too experienced and savvy a boxer to think he can just rough and tumble a skilled boxer like Usyk out of there.

The Francis fight may actually help him fix a few things and have him go back to what he is good at - just being incredibly awkward. If Fury boxes for a points win he has more chance of winning imo because he can simply use his reach to control the distance.
 
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Good to see Fury make the fight! On paper, it's a great one that's hard to call.

One thing I took from that press conference is that Fury is not 6'9. Either that or he has shrunk.
 
Taylor v Cameron in Dublin this weekend.

I think Cameron will stop her this time. She is some operator
 
McGrathsipan said:
Taylor v Cameron in Dublin this weekend.

I think Cameron will stop her this time. She is some operator
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If she does that is probably the end for Katie Taylor.

Can't see this not going the distance though, Cameron isn't a particularly big puncher, Taylor never even been knocked down to my knowledge, plus 2 minute rounds obviously.

Definitely worth a fiver if you're confident though, Cameron between rounds 6-10 is 9/1 at SkyBet.
 
DannyCAFC said:
If she does that is probably the end for Katie Taylor.

Can't see this not going the distance though, Cameron isn't a particularly big puncher, Taylor never even been knocked down to my knowledge, plus 2 minute rounds obviously.

Definitely worth a fiver if you're confident though, Cameron between rounds 6-10 is 9/1 at SkyBet.
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I think ill do that bet for the shits and giggles -
Katie was amazing for womens boxing but she is sure nearing the end.

Cameron will wear her down on the body like she did the last time and Katie might get desperate
 
This is looking like it could be a great fight. That's a really bad cut for Cameron though.
 
Withnail said:
It looks nasty. Katie's doing well, she's looking very sharp.
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Yeah, her hand speed has gone up a level since the last fight. It's going to be very close, but great by Katie so far. She has to keep the intensity up now.
 
I think Taylor’s won but the bias on commentary was sickening. Taylor’s holding in the last 2 rounds was a disgrace and wasn’t even warned once.
 
Well done Taylor and what a fight. There's bound to be a decider between these two now
 
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