The RedCafe Boxing Thread

Raoul said:
Alverez wasn't landing clean shots since if he was, it would've done serious damage to Golovkin, which was clearly not the case. Canelo was obviously the more powerful puncher and deserves credit for that, but you can't possibly expect him to have drawn or won this fight when he was significantly out punched in term volume and jab, and the fact that Golovkin was clearly the aggressor for at least 80% of the fight.
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Just about everything you've written above is bullshit. Alvarez landed clean multiple time throughout the fight, if you want to go back and watch the fight count how many times GGG gets his head snapped back by clean punches. I'm not sure how you could possibly miss this if you watch the fight again, the difference is GGG has a granite chin so he gets hit and maintains pretty much the same expression when hit cleanly, that does not mean he hasn't been hit cleanly or that the punch hasn't done damage(you can see the damage on both fighters faces after the final bell) it just mean that he has an iron constitution and can take a good punch.

Canelo is also not the harder puncher, anybody could tell you that is GGG before the fight, Canelo did however land a higher number of power punches due to superior ring craft (better footwork, better disguise on his punches, better defense) which is where anybody would tell you he had the edge before the fight and for me that was telling. GGG could rarely land clean throughout the fight whereas Canelo was landing cleanly almost at will within the first four rounds, he just didn't have the power to KO Golovkin who has just about the best chin in the business, he also lacked the stamina to keep the same level of intensity thereafter but still IMO did enough to take some more key rounds.

You also can't be taken seriously when you assume that simply because a fighter lands a higher percentage of jabs he is winning the fight (and it is still debatable i how many meaningful punches he landed despite copybox numbers ) fighting is much more nuanced than that and for a lot of the fight GGG was pawing with the jab in an effort to open Canelo's defense and judge distance for power punches (most of which he missed all night) this might register in copybox numbers but is unlikely to do much to sway a judge in the overall scheme of things.

Also you've got get out of the habit of thinking the aggressor automatically wins the fight, if it did then Mayweather wouldn't be 50-0. The smarter more telling punches win a fighter the fight and those were coming from Alvarez for the majority of the fight. You don't get points just for walking forward in straight lines and trying to engage an opponent whilst eating punches no matter how well you take those punches.

I've watched the fight again this morning I see it as not different than last night I would challenge anybody who thinks GGG clearly won to do the same and then come back into this thread and tell me he clearly won.
 
BAMSOLA said:
Just about everything you've written above is bullshit. Alvarez landed clean multiple time throughout the fight, if you want to go back and watch the fight count how many times GGG gets his head snapped back by clean punches. I'm not sure how you could possibly miss this if you watch the fight again, the difference is GGG has a granite chin so he gets hit and maintains pretty much the same expression when hit cleanly, that does not mean he hasn't been hit cleanly or that the punch hasn't done damage(you can see the damage on both fighters faces after the final bell) it just mean that he has an iron constitution and can take a good punch.

Canelo is also not the harder puncher, anybody could tell you that is GGG before the fight, Canelo did however land a higher number of power punches due to superior ring craft (better footwork, better disguise on his punches, better defense) which is where anybody would tell you he had the edge before the fight and for me that was telling. GGG could rarely land clean throughout the fight whereas Canelo was landing cleanly almost at will within the first four rounds, he just didn't have the power to KO Golovkin who has just about the best chin in the business, he also lacked the stamina to keep the same level of intensity thereafter but still IMO did enough to take some more key rounds.

You also can't be taken seriously when you assume that simply because a fighter lands a higher percentage of jabs he is winning the fight (and it is still debatable i how many meaningful punches he landed despite copybox numbers ) fighting is much more nuanced than that and for a lot of the fight GGG was pawing with the jab in an effort to open Canelo's defense and judge distance for power punches (most of which he missed all night) this might register in copybox numbers but is unlikely to do much to sway a judge in the overall scheme of things.

Also you've got get out of the habit of thinking the aggressor automatically wins the fight, if it did then Mayweather wouldn't be 50-0. The smarter more telling punches win a fighter the fight and those were coming from Alvarez for the majority of the fight. You don't get points just for walking forward in straight lines and trying to engage an opponent whilst eating punches no matter how well you take those punches.

I've watched the fight again this morning I see it as not different than last night I would challenge anybody who thinks GGG clearly won to do the same and then come back into this thread and tell me he clearly won.
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But he obviously was last night since Golovkin quite clearly opted to not use his power punches in favor of respecting Canelo's power by using his jab to keep the distance.

As for the 2nd bolded bit, he clearly did win it last night. You can't expect a guy who was against the ropes and got outlanded to have come remotely close to doing anything other than losing.
 
Zen said:
Why do the FEW Canelo fans claim people don't know "how to score" - you are literally saying thousands who know the game and have been involved for years - experts, boxers and analysts - don't know how to score.

I'm not seeing any scorecards out there for Canelo.....so maybe you few and Bird need to create a new organisation, because lord knows, boxing needs another with farcical decision that go against what everyone else is seeing.
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Generally speaking most people agree Canelo won the last 2 rounds and the first 2, possibly 3. Despite GGG being utterly dominant in the rounds he won, it doesn't make them worth any more than the narrow rounds Canelo won. It's not outside the realms of possibility that someone would be swayed by the superior punch quality of Canelo in one or two additional rounds and have him either drawing or narrowly winning. I imagine, rightly or wrongly, that's where it's coming from. Personally I'm not unhappy with the result. Looking forward to the rematch.
 
Raoul said:
But he obviously was last night since Golovkin quite clearly opted to not use his power punches in favor of respecting Canelo's power by using his jab to keep the distance.

As for the 2nd bolded bit, he clearly did win it last night. You can't expect a guy who was against the ropes and got outlanded to have come remotely close to doing anything other than losing.
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He respected Canelo's timing and handspeed, not his power.
 
Raoul said:
Ok, whichever it was, he respected it by not going in with his usual killer body shots.
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Surely that alone tells you part of the story of the fight - Canelo was able to land the more telling blows over the twelve rounds, while Golovkin clearly had the volume.
 
Kazi said:
Surely that alone tells you part of the story of the fight - Canelo was able to land the more telling blows over the twelve rounds, while Golovkin clearly had the volume.
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No one disputes that Canelo was better on power punches. Just as no one disputes Golovkin outlanded him over all and was the aggressor. And let's face it Canelo is no Mayweather who can artistically be the defensive fighter and win against an opponent like GGG. Golovkin spent a large chunk of the fight Teeing off on Canelo's head when he was against the ropes.
 
Raoul said:
No one disputes that Canelo was better on power punches. Just as no one disputes Golovkin outlanded him over all and was the aggressor. And let's face it Canelo is no Mayweather who can artistically be the defensive fighter and win against an opponent like GGG. Golovkin spent a large chunk of the fight Teeing off on Canelo's head when he was against the ropes.
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He did but Canelo blocked a lot of punches with his gloves and slipped loads more. Think about how many minutes of the fight Golovkin had Canelo on the ropes and how few telling shots he actually landed on him in those positions.
 
Kazi said:
He did but Canelo blocked a lot of punches with his gloves and slipped loads more. Think about how many minutes of the fight Golovkin had Canelo on the ropes and how few telling shots he actually landed on him in those positions.
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A few telling shots here and there over the course of a fight amounts to quite a bit. The only disappointing thing about GGG was that he opted not to use his liver shots, which he should've utilized more to snuff out any lingering questions about the result.
 
Raoul said:
A few telling shots here and there over the course of a fight amounts to quite a bit. The only disappointing thing about GGG was that he opted not to use his liver shots, which he should've utilized more to snuff out any lingering questions about the result.
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Yeah he was headhunting. If he had gone to the body early, Canelo may not have been able to finish so strongly.
 
Raoul said:
But he obviously was last night since Golovkin quite clearly opted to not use his power punches in favor of respecting Canelo's power by using his jab to keep the distance.
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As pointed out by Kazi he respected his hand speed and his timing not necessarily his power as whenever he tried to come in swinging he got either countered or ended up swinging at thin air. The reason for using the jab so often was to open up Alvarez defense and add disguise to his own power punches which were mostly missing or getting countered whenever he tried to throw one without at first trying to set it up behind the jab.

Raoul said:
As for the 2nd bolded bit, he clearly did win it last night. You can't expect a guy who was against the ropes and got outlanded to have come remotely close to doing anything other than losing.
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Many fighters have won fights whilst spending the majority of the fight with their back to the ropes (again see Mayweather this time specifically the first fight with Maidana) as for being out landed he wasn't with telling shots, therein lies the key to him winning the fight IMO.
 
I know one thing beyond a reasonable doubt - Saunders doesn't stand a snowballs chance against either of these two.
 
Is the general opinion around here that a prime Mayweather would beat prime Golovkin at a catchweight?
 
Had it 8-4 maybe 7-5 to GGG. Canelo was good but was forced backwards pretty much the whole fight. He landed some nice combinations but he couldn't hurt Golovkin who just walked him down dominating the ring and controlled the fight.

Good on Michael Montero for calling out the ridiculous scorecard from Byrd at the presser. Won't make any difference though, a rematch is what Vegas wants and that's exactly what will happen.
 
BAMSOLA said:
Just about everything you've written above is bullshit. Alvarez landed clean multiple time throughout the fight, if you want to go back and watch the fight count how many times GGG gets his head snapped back by clean punches. I'm not sure how you could possibly miss this if you watch the fight again, the difference is GGG has a granite chin so he gets hit and maintains pretty much the same expression when hit cleanly, that does not mean he hasn't been hit cleanly or that the punch hasn't done damage(you can see the damage on both fighters faces after the final bell) it just mean that he has an iron constitution and can take a good punch.

Canelo is also not the harder puncher, anybody could tell you that is GGG before the fight, Canelo did however land a higher number of power punches due to superior ring craft (better footwork, better disguise on his punches, better defense) which is where anybody would tell you he had the edge before the fight and for me that was telling. GGG could rarely land clean throughout the fight whereas Canelo was landing cleanly almost at will within the first four rounds, he just didn't have the power to KO Golovkin who has just about the best chin in the business, he also lacked the stamina to keep the same level of intensity thereafter but still IMO did enough to take some more key rounds.

You also can't be taken seriously when you assume that simply because a fighter lands a higher percentage of jabs he is winning the fight (and it is still debatable i how many meaningful punches he landed despite copybox numbers ) fighting is much more nuanced than that and for a lot of the fight GGG was pawing with the jab in an effort to open Canelo's defense and judge distance for power punches (most of which he missed all night) this might register in copybox numbers but is unlikely to do much to sway a judge in the overall scheme of things.

Also you've got get out of the habit of thinking the aggressor automatically wins the fight, if it did then Mayweather wouldn't be 50-0. The smarter more telling punches win a fighter the fight and those were coming from Alvarez for the majority of the fight. You don't get points just for walking forward in straight lines and trying to engage an opponent whilst eating punches no matter how well you take those punches.

I've watched the fight again this morning I see it as not different than last night I would challenge anybody who thinks GGG clearly won to do the same and then come back into this thread and tell me he clearly won.
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GGG CLEARLY WON
 
@BAMSOLA

Can you explain why literally almost every Single expert believes the scoring was wrong and that GGG won? And why your opinion is right when you're not a boxing expert? If you're on a wum then good job if not then you quite simply don't understand professional boxing
 
Arbitrium said:
@BAMSOLA

Can you explain why literally almost every Single expert believes the scoring was wrong and that GGG won? And why your opinion is right when you're not a boxing expert? If you're on a wum then good job if not then you quite simply don't understand professional boxing
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I understand a damn sight more than you about professional boxing I can guarantee you that and have given reasons for my view over the last few pages.

I can't be bothered to go through them again so you can cycle through the last few pages. As for those boxing experts you'd have to tell me who they are also you would have to ask them have they rewatch the fight with the emotion of last night removed, I guarantee they would see a different fight if they did. It is easy to swayed by Golovkin's attempts at pressure without taking a closer look at just how effective that pressure was.

And no I am not on a wum, thanks.
 
BAMSOLA said:
I understand a damn sight more than you about professional boxing I can guarantee you that and have given reasons for my view over the last few pages.

I can't be bothered to go through them again so you can cycle through the last few pages. As for those boxing experts you'd have to tell me who they are also you would have to ask them have they rewatch the fight with the emotion of last night removed, I guarantee they would see a different fight if they did. It is easy to swayed by Golovkin's attempts at pressure without taking a closer look at just how effective that pressure was.

And no I am not on a wum, thanks.
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Almost Everyone that watched the fight, past or present professional boxer.

There was no emotion involved, both fighters are heroes in their own country and likeable guys. If canelo had done what GGG done in the fight I'd call it the same.

Johnny Lewis was a close contact of mine during my time in Australia and I'd value his opinion over anyone's. He said that American judges will always favour the aggressor and when they don't and the result is controversial, it was dodgy.
 
Arbitrium said:
Almost Everyone that watched the fight, past or present professional boxer.

There was no emotion involved, both fighters are heroes in their own country and likeable guys. If canelo had done what GGG done in the fight I'd call it the same.

Johnny Lewis was a close contact of mine during my time in Australia and I'd value his opinion over anyone's. He said that American judges will always favour the aggressor and when they don't and the result is controversial, it was dodgy.
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Thanks for your input, it doesn't doesn't change my opinion however so we'll have to agree to disagree. I made it a Canelo victory by 2-3 rounds so it was a close fight, if others see it the other way best of luck to them, that doesn't change the way I see it.
 
altodevil86 said:
Is the general opinion around here that a prime Mayweather would beat prime Golovkin at a catchweight?
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At 154, I have GGG winning it, and finishing the fight with a KO. I know that May toyed with Canelo and GGG got just a draw (which should have been a narrow win), but we have to consider that Canelo is now a far better boxer than when he got beaten by Mayweather, that GGG is probably a bit past his peak, and that unlike with Canelo, GGG wouldn't have respected Mayweather's force and would have gone all in. Mayweather just does't have enough power to do any damage to GGG, and while he might have won many rounds, I think that GGG would have eventually caught him.

Shame that the match never happened.
 
BAMSOLA said:
Thanks for your input, it doesn't doesn't change my opinion however so we'll have to agree to disagree. I made it a Canelo victory by 2-3 rounds so it was a close fight, if others see it the other way best of luck to them, that doesn't change the way I see it.
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lets just hope the rematch has a little less caginess now that the fighters know how hard the other one hits.

I have no idea how canelo can prepare differently, his best shots might aswell have been landed with feather dusters. GGG on the other hand will go for the body more
 
Arbitrium said:
lets just hope the rematch has a little less caginess now that the fighters know how hard the other one hits.

I have no idea how canelo can prepare differently, his best shots might aswell have been landed with feather dusters. GGG on the other hand will go for the body more
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I agree that GGG will go for the kill much earlier next time. This whole idea of feeling things out for a couple of rounds before gaining momentum/confidence is complete BS. He should've just set the tempo right away.
 
The last 2 major fights have ended what little faith I had left in boxing. Its bent as hell... 118-110 lol.

From amateur level right through to the top end. As are most sports with judges.. but the Pacquiao fight and this well...
 
GGG won imo, though could just about argue the draw.

Milking the fight for a second and probably third, this would be the result promoters would be looking for. But that scoring, 118-110 was truly bizarre. Even if the judge was paid off, at least make it relevant to the fight. Absolute best case scenario is 2 or 3 rounds to Canelo if you are looking to give him the close rounds
 
You get a second and potentially third fight with the correct outcome.....draw probably hurts it more than a GGG slight win.

But because it's Canelo and he gets relentlessly silly judging, the next fight GGG changes his gameplan to simply looking for the KO....which in reality hurts his chances just as much as anything. So why bother?
 
Raoul said:
Alverez wasn't landing clean shots since if he was, it would've done serious damage to Golovkin, which was clearly not the case.
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Not true. GGG ate some big punches - the overhand right (round 9?) and uppercut (can't remember which round) for example, but he kept moving forward. Must have been demoralising for Canelo. Fwiw, we've seen GGG get hit before - in the Brook fight, he was hit with a very good uppercut in round 1, which seemed to have hurt him. His chin is unreal.
 
MoneyMay said:
Not true. GGG ate some big punches - the overhand right (round 9?) and uppercut (can't remember which round) for example, but he kept moving forward. Must have been demoralising for Canelo. Fwiw, we've seen GGG get hit before - in the Brook fight, he was hit with a very good uppercut in round 1, which seemed to have hurt him. His chin is unreal.
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Yep, barely flinched. Remarkable. They would've KOed Khan 10 times over
 
Tom Van Persie said:
So who is everybody favouring in the rematch?
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Depends how long they take to rebook the match. Every passing month weakens GGG more IMO with his age and speed declining. Canelo needs to work on his conditioning though to fight at that weight class as he can't fight every match gassed after the 7th like he was Saturday.
 
JoaquinJoaquin said:
Depends how long they take to rebook the match. Every passing month weakens GGG more IMO with his age and speed declining. Canelo needs to work on his conditioning though to fight at that weight class as he can't fight every match gassed after the 7th like he was Saturday.
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Rematch will most likely be on Cinco de Mayo weekend and yeah I agree on Canelo's conditioning. He shouldn't have been gassing out like that he's put way too much muscle on lately imo. I noticed that in the Chavez fight.
 
Tom Van Persie said:
Rematch will most likely be on Cinco de Mayo weekend and yeah I agree on Canelo's conditioning. He shouldn't have been gassing out like that he's put way too much muscle on lately imo. I noticed that in the Chavez fight.
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If it is Cinco de Mayo then I think i'd have to favour Canelo as that is what another 8 months away, Quite some time. In regards to Canelo, he got that weight on really fast aswell, so it's not like he done it at a steady rate. Probably one of the reasons his conditioning has gone to crap.
 
Watch the fight and haven't read through this thread. But I'm sure I'm repeating what other posters have said....118-110 WTF! Seriously how has someone watched that fight and thought that? Canelo winning the last 5 rounds straight? 5th and 6th round. It's a joke.

Other than that, really enjoyed the fight. GGG was taking Canelos shots and kept coming forwards, always pressing and landed good shots. It was close but I scored it 115-113 to GGG.
 
Adelaide Byrd has apparently been “stood down” by the commission. Likely a nice way of saying she is taking a break after which she won’t do much judging.

What is scary is that she apparently trains and tests other judges when she herself isn’t busy judging.
 
altodevil86 said:
Is the general opinion around here that a prime Mayweather would beat prime Golovkin at a catchweight?
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I'd say no. Because the catch-weight would be 157 and that's the Mayweather of 2010 onwards when his legs weren't the same. He would't have enough to really discourage GGG and he'd either get massively outworked or clipped and perhaps stopped. I think he'd know how to beat GGG but fall short of executing.
 
I'm fairly confident Mayweather would outpoint GGG. He's just the master at doing what he does and whilst I think GGG would pose him issues, I think Mayweather would have picked him off fairly easily with good clean work (without causing any real damage).


Also, for the rematch, Canelo will drop weight 100%. He tried to load up on power in the hope of knocking out GGG. He knows now he absolutely cannot knock him out, won't land a bigger or cleaner hit than the one in Round 8/9. He will drop muscle and improve stamina loads. Will be a great rematch.
 
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