The RedCafe Boxing Thread

He does my head in as well. Always talking about destiny and other exaggerated nonsense. I find him very boring for somebody who talks so much and so passionately.

Yeah that's what it is for me I think. It's how much cliched shite he can fit into 1 promo. I had to turn him off the other day when he was on Sky Sports News. Haye is a bit of a tit as well but would love him to smash Bellew.
 
SRL was leading more than when Duran won the previous fight (a lot of people say that SRL should have won in the first place) and Duran's manager said that Duran was embarrassed to continue.

Watching that match, I think it is clear to see that Sugar was going to inevitably win, 'no mas' or not.

Yes, he was going to win; I don't disagree with you in the least. All I'm saying is that it wasn't a total wipeout.

I do, however, disagree that the first fight was close. Those were the worst, most chicken-shit judges in Montreal that night. Duran dominated that fight. Dominated. I've encountered quite a few supremely knowledgeable boxing people who swear by that as well.

And, no, as the SRL camp would have you believe, it wasn't that Ray "decided" to fight Duran on his own terms, mano a mano, to prove to the Panamanian that he was every bit as macho as he was. Duran was among the best ring generals in history. He MADE Leonard that way, as he had done to every single opponent he had faced until then. In truth, the rematch didn't "prove" that SRL could've just boxed to victory in Montreal had he chosen to do that; instead, it just proved that Duran was not the supremely-motivated, finely-tuned mechanism of destruction he once was--and, as we would learn, that he would never again be so, despite having a few more shining moments in his career yet to come.

And a jaded, unmotivated fighter, even one as talented as Duran, can never hope to attain top-class status. That would be Roberto's fate in his twilight. The occasional moment of brilliance, a few more titles that will go down in history, but nevertheless still a shell of his former self.
 
Yes, he was going to win; I don't disagree with you in the least. All I'm saying is that it wasn't a total wipeout.

I do, however, disagree that the first fight was close. Those were the worst, most chicken-shit judges in Montreal that night. Duran dominated that fight. Dominated. I've encountered quite a few supremely knowledgeable boxing people who swear by that as well.

And, no, as the SRL camp would have you believe, it wasn't that Ray "decided" to fight Duran on his own terms, mano a mano, to prove to the Panamanian that he was every bit as macho as he was. Duran was among the best ring generals in history. He MADE Leonard that way, as he had done to every single opponent he had faced until then. In truth, the rematch didn't "prove" that SRL could've just boxed to victory in Montreal had he chosen to do that; instead, it just proved that Duran was not the supremely-motivated, finely-tuned mechanism of destruction he once was--and, as we would learn, that he would never again be so, despite having a few more shining moments in his career yet to come.

And a jaded, unmotivated fighter, even one as talented as Duran, can never hope to attain top-class status. That would be Roberto's fate in his twilight. The occasional moment of brilliance, a few more titles that will go down in history, but nevertheless still a shell of his former self.
Some independent journos gave it to Leonard. I think that Duran tried to kill Leonard in the first three rounds, then somehow Leonard managed to return the favor in the fifth round, and Leonard dominated the last two rounds, with the other rounds being quite equal. I think that it was a very close fight, and while I agree that Duran should have won, it was marginal, and could have easily finished in draw or even in a Leonard victory. I mean, two judges gave Duran just one point more than Leonard (the third judge gave two points more than to Leonard), so just change a round from draw to win for Leonard, and you have a draw.

A very close fight, and probably the best fight I have ever seen. Much better than Thrilla in Manila IMO, considering that it was very similar, but this time both boxers were on their absolute prime.
 
There's just no way I would ever give the first fight to Leonard. Not a chance. Even judging it as a close fight does a huge disservice to Duran.

But, you're right, an absolutely unbelievable fight. Right up there with Ali-Frazier I and III, Barrera-Morales I, and the like.

Opinions on the fight aside, I'm with you on Leonard's greatness. Top ten fighter ever, IMO, and the second best welter in history, behind only the original Sugar Ray.
 
Bellew's a good guy.

Yeah he probably is to be fair and I'm sure plenty of people like him. But I just think he's a tit...I'm sure Amir Khan is a good guy but he often gets slagged off by boxing fans.

He's just one of them people who annoys me, I'm sure everyone thinks the same about other people who most think are alright.
 
SRL was leading more than when Duran won the previous fight (a lot of people say that SRL should have won in the first place) and Duran's manager said that Duran was embarrassed to continue.

Watching that match, I think it is clear to see that Sugar was going to inevitably win, 'no mas' or not.
Duran's preparation was terrible to be fair. Of course, that's not Leonard's fault but Duran was flawed massively in terms of his lifestyle throughout his career.

Leonard's camp weren't stupid, they hurried the rematch up because they knew Duran had been doing nothing but eating, drinking, smoking and shagging for a few months.
 
Duran's preparation was terrible to be fair. Of course, that's not Leonard's fault but Duran was flawed massively in terms of his lifestyle throughout his career.

Leonard's camp weren't stupid, they hurried the rematch up because they knew Duran had been doing nothing but eating, drinking, smoking and shagging for a few months.
Leonard's camp was against it. His coach left Leonard cause he thought that it will be a dangerous match for Leonard. It was Leonard who insisted on it.

I find that match very similar to Ali vs Liston I. Duran (Liston) was chasing Leonard (Ali) for the entire match, but quite clearly Leonard (Ali) was outboxing his opponents and was going to win in either case. In both matches the champion gave up.
 
Leonard's camp was against it. His coach left Leonard cause he thought that it will be a dangerous match for Leonard. It was Leonard who insisted on it.

I find that match very similar to Ali vs Liston I. Duran (Liston) was chasing Leonard (Ali) for the entire match, but quite clearly Leonard (Ali) was outboxing his opponents and was going to win in either case. In both matches the champion gave up.
There's every chance Leonard would've won anyway, i just think Duran gave himself no chance with his prep. Spending 75% of your camp shedding weight is no good for anyone.

There's always been the theory Duran was promised a rubber match should he lose just as Leonard was in the first bout which may be why he wasn't too bothered about quitting.

I'm a bit biased as Duran is a hero of mine. Leonard was a great too, but i can't accept a case for him being the best of all time when he insisted on contests with weight stipulations.
 
There's every chance Leonard would've won anyway, i just think Duran gave himself no chance with his prep. Spending 75% of your camp shedding weight is no good for anyone.

There's always been the theory Duran was promised a rubber match should he lose just as Leonard was in the first bout which may be why he wasn't too bothered about quitting.

I'm a bit biased as Duran is a hero of mine. Leonard was a great too, but i can't accept a case for him being the best of all time when he insisted on contests with weight stipulations.
Neither is the best of all time, but both make my top 10 list. I rate Leonard higher mainly because he usually beat the best, while Duran lost too many fights, including all the big ones in weights which were higher than 140lbs.

Duran not having the best preparation has to be blamed on himself. Even then, it would have been really close, considering that Duran barely won in the first match. Both great great boxers, something that we can only dream to see on the current era.
 
Neither is the best of all time, but both make my top 10 list. I rate Leonard higher mainly because he usually beat the best, while Duran lost too many fights, including all the big ones in weights which were higher than 140lbs.

Duran not having the best preparation has to be blamed on himself. Even then, it would have been really close, considering that Duran barely won in the first match. Both great great boxers, something that we can only dream to see on the current era.
I don't think Duran's style was conducive to moving up through the weights. He was a wrecking ball of a lightweight but he didn't have the foot or hand speed of a Leonard or Mayweather to partially compensate for size difference.

Like you say, great era though. I re watched the 30 for 30 No Mas documentary the other day and it was unbelievable how little the referee was required to get involved compared to modern fighters .No clinching or playing for time - they never stopped punching.
 
Bellew must be on acid or dreaming, no way could he take Haye. It would be like Macarnelli v Haye all over again, that's basically what Bellew is a new version of. I also like how he claims he's the best cruiser in the world all of a sudden, what by winning a vacant belt?
 
Come to think of it, if Haye is only in it for the money or even milking his comeback from injury for easy pay then he could drop back down and clean up the cash in a big stadium v Bellew now he has his belt, the stadium fight and of course the film hype behind him that he never shuts up about, do it at Wembley under Hearne on his so called exclusive PPV deal and he's laughing.
 
Neither is the best of all time, but both make my top 10 list. I rate Leonard higher mainly because he usually beat the best, while Duran lost too many fights, including all the big ones in weights which were higher than 140lbs.

Duran not having the best preparation has to be blamed on himself. Even then, it would have been really close, considering that Duran barely won in the first match. Both great great boxers, something that we can only dream to see on the current era.

I don't believe it matters at all that he was inconsistent above his natural weight of 135 pounds, not when he dominated that division unlike any man before or since--dominated as much as any man has ever dominated a division. And this was a brutally strong division, too, unlike, say, Louis's hw division and especially that of Marciano's. Should we penalize Ali because he only fought in one division? (Of course, I realize there was no higher division for him to move up to; this is just to make a point.)

For Duran, everything he accomplished after he abandoned the lightweight title is just gravy for his legacy. After all, he didn't fight SRL for the welter title until he was 29! Imagine that: the man defeated a larger titlist--and not just any champion; this was a future top ten all-time pfp fighter in his PRIME--when he was almost thirty!

Don't agree either with Leonard being placed above Duran on an all-time pfp list. Duran was the more accomplished fighter, and, quite frankly, he was just better. I have Duran at #3 and Leonard at #7:

1. Sugar Ray
2. Greb
3. Duran
4. Ali
5. Pep
6. Armstrong
7. Sugar Ray part deux

By the way, the conversation here is great. Nice to actually be able to converse with folks who actually know more about boxing than just Pacquaio and Mayweather. :)
 
Maybe I read that wrong but is 29 meant to be old?

It's over the hill for most fighters. Hell yes. Or at least it used to be back in the day when fighters used to fight more than once or twice a year. Duran had been fighting since he was a teenager and had a record of 71-1 by the time of the first Leonard fight.

Though he had some shining moments left to come in his career, he was undoubtedly past his prime.
 
It's over the hill for most fighters. Hell yes. Or at least it used to be back in the day when fighters used to fight more than once or twice a year. Duran had been fighting since he was a teenager and had a record of 71-1 by the time of the first Leonard fight.

Though he had some shining moments left to come in his career, he was undoubtedly past his prime.
I think it depends more in the boxer than in the era. Archie Moore became a top boxer only on his mid/at thirties and boxed at a very high level until his mid forties. And that was before Duran's era.
 
@Chekhov I like your list (and agree with you on Duran in general), but I just can't take that list too seriously when it has Greb in it. He was truly great for his time, but the "for his time" is a qualifying statement that will always be there for me. There's just no way I could rank him higher than Ali in a p4p list.

There's always such a scarcity of footage with Greb, and what footage does exist isn't the best. Boxing had evolved so much even two decades later when Marciano was the champ, that Greb seems archaic and outdated. You can't take his achievements away from him, but not sure I can put him on the same level as Robinson, Ali and Druan.
 
@Chekhov I like your list (and agree with you on Duran in general), but I just can't take that list too seriously when it has Greb in it. He was truly great for his time, but the "for his time" is a qualifying statement that will always be there for me. There's just no way I could rank him higher than Ali in a p4p list.

There's always such a scarcity of footage with Greb, and what footage does exist isn't the best. Boxing had evolved so much even two decades later when Marciano was the champ, that Greb seems archaic and outdated. You can't take his achievements away from him, but not sure I can put him on the same level as Robinson, Ali and Druan.
However he was the only motherfecker who fought twice a week or so, cause he hated training and needed somehow to remain in shape.

That is one of the very few things I know about him. The other is that Chekhov's opinion to put him second isn't controversial at all, cause I have seen other lists doing that, with some arguing that he was even better than Sugar.

I really have no opinion on him considering that I never watched any footage of him. I don't know much about Pep and Armstrong too, but when it comes to Greb, I know pretty much nothing.
 
However he was the only motherfecker who fought twice a week or so, cause he hated training and needed somehow to remain in shape.

That is one of the very few things I know about him. The other is that Chekhov's opinion to put him second isn't controversial at all, cause I have seen other lists doing that, with some arguing that he was even better than Sugar.

I really have no opinion on him considering that I never watched any footage of him. I don't know much about Pep and Armstrong too, but when it comes to Greb, I know pretty much nothing.
Yeah, I only know his biography. Not an expert at all, but have watched what footage I could find of him. I won't lie, I'm biased against certain eras of the sport, and can't help it. Greb to me seems a pugilist in the traditional sense of the term.
 
The sad thing about it is that the corrupt prick Russell Mora still gets big fights.
Yeah, it's completely crazy. I'd never seen that footage before, but it's unbelievable how bad that performance is. Should have been banned on the spot after that.
 
I think it depends more in the boxer than in the era. Archie Moore became a top boxer only on his mid/at thirties and boxed at a very high level until his mid forties. And that was before Duran's era.

Excellent point. Although, it has to be said, Archie was a physical freak. We wouldn't see anything like him until Foreman and Hopkins, but neither one was as good at an advanced age--or any age--as Moore.
 
@Chekhov I like your list (and agree with you on Duran in general), but I just can't take that list too seriously when it has Greb in it. He was truly great for his time, but the "for his time" is a qualifying statement that will always be there for me. There's just no way I could rank him higher than Ali in a p4p list.

There's always such a scarcity of footage with Greb, and what footage does exist isn't the best. Boxing had evolved so much even two decades later when Marciano was the champ, that Greb seems archaic and outdated. You can't take his achievements away from him, but not sure I can put him on the same level as Robinson, Ali and Druan.

Hey, Mciahel. This is all subjective stuff of course, but I've come across plenty of people who rank Greb above Ali (God bless him, I hope he pulls through). A fair few place him above Robinson, for gosh sakes. And they make excellent arguments on his behalf too. Harry was just extraordinary--achievements that blow your mind.

Very fair point about the footage, though. But here you just have to take ALL the leading experts and eyewitnesses, including those whose lives spanned Greb's eras with the post-Marciano epoch, at their word. Guys like Fleischer and others, for example. And almost down to the last guy they all testified to his almost inhuman talent, toughness, and ferocity.

Boxing has evolved, yes, but let's keep something in mind. When Ray Arcel (and Freddie Brown) were fine-tuning Duran into one of the best defensive fighters of the modern era, did they do it by teaching him the newer, flashier dancing style of the Alis of the world? No. They taught him old-time techniques that were largely ignored by then, techniques they had perfected during the Jewish heyday of the sport in the 20s, like ducking or just turning away from straight head shots. Old or not, these techniques made Duran almost impossible to beat. No one could figure him out because things like ducking and turning--unlike pure-footwork and, for lack of a better term, running--allow you to go from defense to offense almost instantaneously. Running doesn't afford you that luxury.

What style did Cus D'Amato have Tyson emulate as they watched old fight films endlessly? Dempsey. And there's another so-called brawler whose out of this world punching power has masked his defensive genius in the eyes of many for generations. That bobbing and weaving style is something else. Dempsey and Tyson were NOT easy to hit. I remember Ali saying that people always thought that Frazier was easy to hit. Heck, no, he would say. He's one of the hardest guys to catch cleanly.

The sport might have evolved in the sense that new things have been brought into the sport, but not necessarily because old techniques have been made obsolete.
 
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Hey, Mciahel. This is all subjective stuff of course, but I've come across plenty of people who rank Greb above Ali (God bless him, I hope he pulls through). A fair few place him above Robinson, for gosh sakes. And they make excellent arguments on his behalf too. Harry was just extraordinary--achievements that blow your mind.

Very fair point about the footage, though. But here you just have to take ALL the leading experts and eyewitnesses, including those whose lives spanned Greb's eras with the post-Marciano epoch, at their word. Guys like Fleischer and others, for example. And almost down to the last guy they all testified to his almost inhuman talent, toughness, and ferocity.

Boxing has evolved, yes, but let's keep something in mind. When Ray Arcel (and Freddie Brown) were fine-tuning Duran into one of the best defensive fighters of the modern era, did they do it by teaching him the newer, flashier dancing style of the Alis of the world? No. They taught him old-time techniques that were largely ignored by then, techniques they had perfected during the Jewish heyday of the sport in the 20s, like ducking or just turning away from straight head shots. Old or not, these techniques made Duran almost impossible to beat. No one could figure him out because things like ducking and turning--unlike pure-footwork and, for lack of a better term, running--allow you to go from defense to offense almost instantaneously. Running doesn't afford you that luxury.

What style did Cus D'Amato have Tyson emulate as they watched old fight films endlessly? Dempsey. And there's another so-called brawler whose out of this world punching power has masked his defensive genius in the eyes of many for generations.

The sport might have evolved in the sense that new things have been brought into the sport, but not necessarily because old techniques have been made obsolete.
It's one of those cross generational type of debates, though, isn't it? I just find it difficult to rely upon other people's testimony and statistics when judging a fighter (so the ones who make it into my top five p4p are those fighters whose full length bouts I can readily watch).

You make some very good points, though. Glad you got promoted, you seem like a good addition :)
 
It's one of those cross generational type of debates, though, isn't it? I just find it difficult to rely upon other people's testimony and statistics when judging a fighter (so the ones who make it into my top five p4p are those fighters whose full length bouts I can readily watch).

You make some very good points, though. Glad you got promoted, you seem like a good addition :)

Thanks. Debates like this are all subjective, though, aren't they? What matters to me is that statements go beyond the infuriating "Pacquaio KO3 Duran" garbage that pollute so many online boxing boards.

Who'd figure a football forum would be so much better than those? Lol.
 
Thanks. Debates like this are all subjective, though, aren't they? What matters to me is that statements go beyond the infuriating "Pacquaio KO3 Duran" garbage that pollute so many online boxing boards.

Who'd figure a football forum would be so much better than those? Lol.
I've read a good article from a guy who knows his shit, who was saying that Mayweather would have defeated (obviously on points) Duran. He also said that Leonard would have defeated May on points, Hagler would have KO him, and Sugar Ray Original would have destroyed him. He made arguments on that.

Saying that, I just don't see how May would have defeated Duran, considering that it was impossible to run from Duran at his peak, and May definitely cannot exchange punches with Duran (like Leonard did). And there is no chance at all that Pacquiao defeats Duran. He was great, but Duran was even better.
 
I've read a good article from a guy who knows his shit, who was saying that Mayweather would have defeated (obviously on points) Duran. He also said that Leonard would have defeated May on points, Hagler would have KO him, and Sugar Ray Original would have destroyed him. He made arguments on that.

Saying that, I just don't see how May would have defeated Duran, considering that it was impossible to run from Duran at his peak, and May definitely cannot exchange punches with Duran (like Leonard did). And there is no chance at all that Pacquiao defeats Duran. He was great, but Duran was even better.

Nah, neither Pacquaio nor Floyd would beat a prime Duran? In fact, I shudder to think of Mayweather trying his shoulder roll defense against Roberto. Like that would deter him, or the likes of a Marciano or Armstrong.

As far as the other match-ups you mentioned, I agree that Robinson would KO Floyd, but I disagree that Leonard only outpoints him. SRL had tremendous punching power. That often gets overlooked nowadays because of all his flash. I see him scoring a KO too.

And why is there even a Hagler matchup? Marvin only fought at middleweight. Since when did Floyd ever do anything at 160 pounds to even warrant him being mentioned in a fantasy fight with any half-decent middleweight, much less the Marvelous One?
 
I think Duran vs Floyd/Manny are both pick'ems, and both absolutely brilliant styles match-ups. Duran's style has given Floyd problems in the past (Castillo/Maidana). Duran may be too big for Manny, but Manny would have a speed advantage.
 
I think Duran vs Floyd/Manny are both pick'ems, and both absolutely brilliant styles match-ups. Duran's style has given Floyd problems in the past (Castillo/Maidana). Duran may be too big for Manny, but Manny would have a speed advantage.
They had basically the same weight and height.
Nah, neither Pacquaio nor Floyd would beat a prime Duran? In fact, I shudder to think of Mayweather trying his shoulder roll defense against Roberto. Like that would deter him, or the likes of a Marciano or Armstrong.

As far as the other match-ups you mentioned, I agree that Robinson would KO Floyd, but I disagree that Leonard only outpoints him. SRL had tremendous punching power. That often gets overlooked nowadays because of all his flash. I see him scoring a KO too.

And why is there even a Hagler matchup? Marvin only fought at middleweight. Since when did Floyd ever do anything at 160 pounds to even warrant him being mentioned in a fantasy fight with any half-decent middleweight, much less the Marvelous One?
Mostly because Hagler fought both Duran and SRL, so it was a matchup of those 4. But yeah, Floyd cannot go at 160lbs. If h could have done that, he would have faced Golovkin.
 
How is the heavyweight division these days? I feel like I know plenty of heavyweight boxers from the 80s/90s yet so few of today (Fury, Klitschkos).
 
How is the heavyweight division these days? I feel like I know plenty of heavyweight boxers from the 80s/90s yet so few of today (Fury, Klitschkos).
Pretty terrible. It's Wilder, Fury, a declining Wladimir, AJ and Haye - and Povetkin just tested positive for meldonium.
 
Any of them who could beat Tyson in his prime?
No. Wlad a few years ago might have been a good shout, just because styles make fights and Tyson wouldn't have enjoyed fighting him. AJ has potential, but nowhere near that level yet.
 
Any of them who could beat Tyson in his prime?

Wlad at his prime would of given Tyson a good fight and I reckon.
Hard to say, at Tyson's peak he never fought anyone as good as Wlad, by time he fought Holyfield 1st time he was no where near his previous best level.
 
Any of them who could beat Tyson in his prime?
Wlad at his prime could have beaten Tyson IMO, but others no.

As @Oggmonster said it is difficult to know for sure. Tyson basically defeated people who don't have wiki pages, Spinks and a past it Holmes. The only boxers who were as good/better than Wlad whom faced Tyson (and who were still at their peak or near it) were Holyfield (but Tyson might have been slightly past his peak) and Lewis (Tyson was past it).