We've been here before (him getting beat by somebody he has no business getting beat by). I think he must have some major bills to pay or something, so I would discount seeing him shitting all over his own legacy again.
The RedCafe Boxing Thread
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We've been here before (him getting beat by somebody he has no business getting beat by). I think he must have some major bills to pay or something, so I would discount seeing him shitting all over his own legacy again.
It's horrible to see what he's become. I used to think he was invincible, but crikey why in hell does he keep doing this? Surely the money facture can't be an issue?
Yeah, I got that impression too. Looks like he's playing to the media. Whyte on the other hand, came across as really genuine, what you see is what you get. Not too unlike Fury come to think of it. Obviously not knowing who they really are but that's the way they both came across to me in the lead up to this fight Would have been nice for them to show each other some respect post fight (did they touch gloves post fight? - I didn't see).
Thing is being invincible (almost) must have felt really damn great.......Maybe he's just chasing rainbows....?
Well he isn't chasing damn dreams anymore.
Re; Joshua
I'd be tempted to push Malik Scott or Odlanier Solis at him. They're almost as big and have close to an equal reach. Non-punchers (in HW terms) but technical fighters that show no heart against a heavy puncher. Failing that, perhaps Manuel Charr who is clearly on the decline. All bring qualities he hasn't faced so far and are limited fighters he 'should' overcome.
Dereck Chisroa, Mike Perez or Christian Hammer after that perhaps. Depends how the division and titles lay 12 or 18 months down the line. Still think he should be kept away from the heaviest of punchers just yet. Feeding him Alex Leapai, Pulev before the Wilder's, Haye's and Fury's of the world would be wise too.
Ultimately I think Joshua needs to see 20 fights before a title shot. Even if the division/belts look kind to his abilities before then.
I'd be tempted to push Malik Scott or Odlanier Solis at him. They're almost as big and have close to an equal reach. Non-punchers (in HW terms) but technical fighters that show no heart against a heavy puncher. Failing that, perhaps Manuel Charr who is clearly on the decline. All bring qualities he hasn't faced so far and are limited fighters he 'should' overcome.
Dereck Chisroa, Mike Perez or Christian Hammer after that perhaps. Depends how the division and titles lay 12 or 18 months down the line. Still think he should be kept away from the heaviest of punchers just yet. Feeding him Alex Leapai, Pulev before the Wilder's, Haye's and Fury's of the world would be wise too.
Ultimately I think Joshua needs to see 20 fights before a title shot. Even if the division/belts look kind to his abilities before then.
I really can't think of any other reason, I mean surely he must be able to see how he now fights. I think if its not money then he must have had his judgement faculties punched out of him by now. If the Calzaghe fight or even the Danny Green didn't let him know that he was done with boxing then I really don't know what will.
What the feck is Roy Jones doing in the ring? The guy is nearly 50!
Not sure its a money thing with Jones. If you watch the get together on Sky with Johnny Nelson, Calzaghe, Eubank, Woodall, Collins, he says a lot about how a boxers fire never goes away and you always want to do it, the way he explains it seems to show what he's been doing after that. Just needs to age gracefully and admit he can't do it anyway, find something else before he starts slurring big time.
Speaking of punch drunk, anyone notice how Haye looks either damaged or high in every interview lately? He's got all his wits and fast talk still but his eyes look glazed all the time IMO, maybe its just me.
Speaking of punch drunk, anyone notice how Haye looks either damaged or high in every interview lately? He's got all his wits and fast talk still but his eyes look glazed all the time IMO, maybe its just me.
Roy Jones Jr is a Russian citizen.
I think Vladimir might want to revoke that based on tonight.
Apparently money isn't really an issue. He just loves boxing, his last few fights before this were pretty easy and he seems to just go in to knock them out and put on a bit of a show. His last 5 fights have gone 15 rounds which isn't to bad (an average of 3 per fight) and he barely got hit in some of them. He would of thought the same with this fight realistically and it'd be a huge shock. Hopefully it's a reality check for him though as it's a pretty brutal knockout.
Regarding the Joshua card I enjoyed it with the exception of the Bellew fight. Mitchell probably got shown he'll never be world level, Eubank Jr looked good albeit the fight seemed harder than it should of been, Joshua had a good test. He'll be looking at the likes of Chisora next, he needs a slow build to a fight with the likes of Fury as he's nowhere near that level for me.
I think styles make fights and that Joshua could beat Fury tomorrow whereas I think he would lose against David Haye. That was a great fight for Joshua, Whyte is a good puncher in his own right and Joshua stood up to some good shots. He also has great variety in his punches and utilises the uppercut a lot. I think Dillion Whyte will be on the scene for a while now, with his heart, chin and power he should progress.
For anyone that didn't or hasn't seen it yet, it's on YouTube in decent quality tbf...
Really wanted Joshua to get KTFO, but I knew it wasn't going to happen.
He wasn't that far from it. He was there for the taking. Maybe he was a bit shell-shocked......Anyhow, he did well to recover,but his aura has been burst IMO.
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Whyte wasn't far wrong in his interview with Sky they've beep looping. Gave Joshua far more of a fight than anyone expected, and proved he's no mug either.
Dunno if that shite he was saying about his shoulder is true, but regardless, should have a fine future in the sport.
Dunno if that shite he was saying about his shoulder is true, but regardless, should have a fine future in the sport.
Has potential to get the that Chisora level imo. Nothing wrong with it, just never going to be an elite fighter. Joshua can be whatever he wants.
Whyte had him rattled. Shows how wrapped in cotton Hearn has kept AJ that the first opening salvo against a moderately good opponent knocks him off his game (and nearly onto the canvas). He needs to be fighting (and sparring on a regular basis) with top class fighters.
Whilst I agree with you to play devils advocate there wasn't many people who thought Fury would get past a Chisora level and he's World Champion, a lot of people predicted he'd struggle both times he fought Chisora.
Whyte it still young in boxing experience and should improve. He prob wont be a world champion but that's been said before with others.
He wasn't the most convincing against Chisora tbf (first time out). And as ridiculous as it seems, I'm still not 100% on Fury. I'll judge him on his defences.
After seeing that there isn't a doubt in my mind that at this time Haye would spark him out.
100% agreed. Joshua, in a few years with the right development, might become the best heavyweight in a long time. But at this stage, Haye would KO him inside of 7 rounds imo. Never mind the likes of Povetkin.
I think some of you are discounting the mental factor in this fight. Yes style make fights but Joshua got careless, started gloating and got tagged pretty good by Whyte. Once he took the 3rd round off he got back to his game and you saw the technical and physical gulf between the two.
I'd never put him in with Haye at this point, it's way too risky, however Chisora, Malik Scott or Hammer are all fighters I would still expect a fully focused and business like Joshua to beat even at this point. He is a much better fighter than he showed at any stage other than the first round against Whyte.
If he fought him again I'd fully expect him to do a much more professional job of it within 3-4 rounds, having learnt not to let his concentration slip.
I'd never put him in with Haye at this point, it's way too risky, however Chisora, Malik Scott or Hammer are all fighters I would still expect a fully focused and business like Joshua to beat even at this point. He is a much better fighter than he showed at any stage other than the first round against Whyte.
If he fought him again I'd fully expect him to do a much more professional job of it within 3-4 rounds, having learnt not to let his concentration slip.
I agree that Haye would beat Joshua at this point but Tyson wouldn't, styles make fights and Joshua does not box afraid like Vald, he would have the guts to close the distance on Fury IMO. Fury cannot stand up to the power of Joshua and Tyson isn't a puncher. It is worth remembering that Whyte is a KO artist himself, with a chin and a heart.
Haye has been out of the game too long for me to give him the edge over Joshua, even though he has a lot more experience.
I think Haye would beat Fury as well. Don't get me wrong, I know Tyson is undefeated and is also a world champ, but I just don't consider him a good boxer. I admit he surprised me with how he handles Vlad though, but I just can't bring myself to say he is a great boxer. For me this is like the time Frank Bruno became a world champ, and it's just a matter of time before someone takes the belt.
One of the best counter punchers in the game with massive power though. Any mistakes by Joshua could be lights outs. He does lack heart though and might be reluctant to get close to the monster a la the WK fight.
@Summit
WK was exposed against Tyson for me. Forget the bad night or age thing. Ever since he was KO'd a number of times he developed the grab and jab style of boxing, it works great against smaller fighters they have to close the range on you. Against Tyson the roles were totally reversed and he had to close the range, to close the range in boxing you often have to take a couple of shots, Vlad was afraid to do that until he was desperate IMO, he knows that he doesn't take the best shot. He allowed Fury to outbox (I use the term loosely) him on the outside. Fury bamboozled him and WK would not take a chance to get close.
I agree. Fury is a tough tough man but I think AJ would beat him tomorrow. He has enough skills, the guts to get close and the power to erase him.
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He would eat Joshua alive inside 5 for me. Joshua brought it together in the latter stages of his previous fight and looked good doing so, but he was out of gas in that second, legs looked gone and if Haye was in there he would have had the knockout. No question about it for me. Haye knows it too, and that's why all of a sudden he has started running his mouth off.
And that's why I'd also give Fury the edge over him. I saw an interview with TF once where he said a lot of people who say they'll get up after anything and keep going are full of shite - He isn't. Carl Froch isn't, and Martin Murray isn't... Haye? Meh, I really, really don't like Haye.
Joshua >= Haye
Fury > Haye
Fury > Joshua
Fully agree. Rounds 4,5,6 and 7 he was totally on control. Round 1 and 2 he tried to power through like he usually does but got caught. Round 3 was just to get back until his groove.
If he has brains about him, next time he'd deal with Whyte much easier and probably quicker. Wait for the opportunity rather than try the force it like he did early on.
4,5,6 and 7 he was impressive. Controlling the distance and had the middle of the ring. He seems the type to learn from his mistakes so don't expect him to fight like he did in round 2 again.
If he has brains about him, next time he'd deal with Whyte much easier and probably quicker. Wait for the opportunity rather than try the force it like he did early on.
4,5,6 and 7 he was impressive. Controlling the distance and had the middle of the ring. He seems the type to learn from his mistakes so don't expect him to fight like he did in round 2 again.
I think we all need to wait and see whether the real David Haye is the one we see back in the ring. Let's not forget he was forced to retire due to that shoulder injury, however Haye in his prime would beat Joshua, although not as easily as some are making out for much the same reason that he struggled with Wladimir.
I think Haye would beat this Josuha but give it a couple of years and Josuha would toy with him IMO. All he needs to do is work the jab and when Haye gets close work that uppercut which is totally brutal. Such a smaller man can't deal with that.
Yep, I think it wouldn't be easy even at this stage for a prime David Haye, 1 and a half years time and I think it all changes if Joshua learns to use the jab more obsessively to set up shots and learns not to put it away as a weapon like he did for two rounds against Whyte (who is a much better fighter and a bigger test than some are giving him credit for). He need to learn to fight tall as well as he currently fights powerful.
Fury for all his criticism fights tall.
Haye would've smashed Joshua to bits. As soon as he wobbled he would have been all over him as we've seen and Joshua would be in a state like Enzo, Barrett, Ruiz et al. Not to mention that Haye has far more power than Whyte and way better fitness, yet Joshua was wobbling and wishing he could borrow one of Ji Sung Park's lungs.
Only issue with Haye beating Joshua is the shoulder op and January, we'll see how he does and if its still there. Fury would toy with Joshua and laugh at him doing it, not to mention break him mentally in the pressers.
Joshuas been good to watch, its been a good ride and adds to the Fury, Haye, Klit etc drama but he's way off at the minute, that last fighter he fought was picked up off the street, joke fight, he basically fell over. He's basically the English Wilder.
Only issue with Haye beating Joshua is the shoulder op and January, we'll see how he does and if its still there. Fury would toy with Joshua and laugh at him doing it, not to mention break him mentally in the pressers.
Joshuas been good to watch, its been a good ride and adds to the Fury, Haye, Klit etc drama but he's way off at the minute, that last fighter he fought was picked up off the street, joke fight, he basically fell over. He's basically the English Wilder.
Apart from his heart (which is a big thing) what does he have? He is so poor technically, he has no power relative to the division. I think Haye would erase him but he has lost that shot. We wil probably bandy legged Wilder come in to the mix. I think him vs Fury could go either way. Lets says this though, lets thank the lord WK is gone FFS.
Haye couldn't touch Wlad, how the feck do you expect him to even get close to Fury? The only guy in history to ever beat Wlad to the jab.
Fury's skillset for his size is pretty incredible really.
I think you are wrong there about Fury (and I've previously focused on his lack of technical ability) the fact is he has a devotion to the jab which makes him a formidable force for anybody who doesn't know how to slip a jab like a young Mike Tyson. Getting to him to expose his lack of technical ability is a challenge in itself, he also fights tall(uses his reach brilliantly) and heavy(knows how to make most fights a messy brawl by leaning on his opponent).
Go back in this thread and you'll probably find a lot of bad things I had to say about Fury, however that klitchko fight should have woken everybody up to the fact that despite how poor he is technically he has fast hands in relation to his size and he knows how to grind out a win in ugly fashion by using the few gifts he has (height, weight and lance like jab).
Have to say, anyone thinking Joshua is ready to fight Haye (despite his absence from the ring) is deluded imo. Haye is one of the best cruiserweight boxers I've ever seen, and a very, very decent heavyweight. Never had the size to be a natural heavyweight, but can easily mix it at that level. The mistakes Joshua made when he left himself open -- Haye would have had him on the canvas. No doubt in my mind.
As for Haye/Fury... I'd give the edge to Fury. Haye's far superior technically but styles make fights, etc.
As for Haye/Fury... I'd give the edge to Fury. Haye's far superior technically but styles make fights, etc.
Not just the power with Haye, it's the speed and agility he brings from his cruiserweight background. He'd have dropped him easily. Joshua is still learning, Haye is a seasoned vet. It wouldn't be much of a competition at this moment in time.