The RedCafe Boxing Thread

Mciahel Goodman said:
PFP is a different story. PFP not sure Tyson gets near a top 100. Also, Sugar Ray Robinson is probably the greatest fighter ever if we're strictly talking pfp.
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Yeah, that was what I said too. At the very worst case it should be between him and Ali (I am more familiar with Ali but pretty much every expert says that Robinson was the best ever).

Anyway, I said who was the better boxer, not who would have won in a possible duel. Louis of forties didn't have the medicine, trainers etc than Tyson had (or could have). The box wasn't as good technically (after all, don't all agree that Robinson invented the moves and other boxers just used them. When Robinson won middleweight, Louis had already retired) etc etc. So when I say peak and career, I am also taking the time into context.

Saying that, I think that Liston, Ali, Foreman, Fraizer, Lewis and Holyfield would have defeated him in a match. Probably Vitali too.
 
Revan said:
Saying that, I think that Liston, Ali, Foreman, Fraizer, Lewis and Holyfield would have defeated him in a match. Probably Vitali too.
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Wasn't sure if you meant the other Sugar Ray (who also stakes a claim tbf).

Sure they'd defeat him, but only because the match would be on unfair terms. PFP he was better than all of them (except maybe Ali).
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Wlad passed him I think.
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Nope. 19 matches since Wlad won IBF/WBO against Byrd (not counting the defeat against Fury). Louis had 25 consequtive victories defending the title.

Also, Wlad had it 7 years while Louis for 12 years.

Mayweather apparently has 30, but 5 of them weren't for titles, so it seems to be a joint record.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Wasn't sure if you meant the other Sugar Ray (who also stakes a claim tbf).

Sure they'd defeat him, but only because the match would be on unfair terms. PFP he was better than all of them (except maybe Ali).
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In what aspect unfair?

I meant the original Sugar Ray. Leonard is probably a top 10 ever (any class), to his credit, but was talking for Robinson.
 
Revan said:
Nope. 19 matches since Wlad won IBF/WBO against Byrd (not counting the defeat against Fury). Louis had 25 consequtive victories defending the title.

Also, Wlad had it 7 years while Louis for 12 years.

Mayweather apparently has 30, but 5 of them weren't for titles, so it seems to be a joint record.
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Your football analogy gets it pretty much spot on tbh. Just impossible to compare the what ifs across such a generational gap.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
I mean, unfair for SRR to be expected to perform at that level. Well above his weight class.
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Yeah sure. In that comment was talking for Tyson though (well, too late maybe I need to go to sleep).


Mciahel Goodman said:
fwiw though, Ali always held SRR to be the best ever.
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Yep. As exciting as Ali was, SRR from the highlights seems at another level. Perfect technique, crazy speed everything.

Out of curiosity, does anyone think that Pacquiao has some similarities with him?
 
Revan said:
Out of curiosity, does anyone think that Pacquiao has some similarities with him?
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Definitely imo. Pacquiao was incredible in what he accomplished winning belts across divisions. Speed, power, endurance.

I did always suspect he was using PEDs though (Maweather too), just because his feats seem almost impossible.
 
Holy shit, apparently Sugar Ray killed a boxer during a fight. Didn't know this before.

It's a surprise though that he didn't kill more.
 
Someone else did too... was thinking Dempsey but maybe not. Schmeling maybe.

Nah, was Max Baer.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Someone else did too... was thinking Dempsey but maybe not. Schmeling maybe.

Nah, was Max Baer.
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Boer essentially killed two. One on the ring, and the other one died in an another match but apparently he got severely injured from Baer fight which indirectly resulted on his death later. I know for him but until an hour ago, didn't know that Robinson was a killer too.

And well, Boer was heavyweight. More likely to kill someone than a 63kg Robinson.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Someone else did too... was thinking Dempsey but maybe not. Schmeling maybe.

Nah, was Max Baer.
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Dempsey did give a horrible beating to Jesse Willard who "suffered a broken jaw, broken ribs, several broken teeth, and a number of deep fractures to his facial bones during their fight." Knocked down 7 times in one round as well :wenger:

Brutal.
 
Thisistheone said:
Dempsey did give a horrible beating to Jesse Willard who "suffered a broken jaw, broken ribs, several broken teeth, and a number of deep fractures to his facial bones during their fight." Knocked down 7 times in one round as well :wenger:

Brutal.
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I watched that match. It was brutal. Likely, the worst beating I have ever seen.
 
Oggmonster said:
I'd guess Hearn is the top payer in terms of UK Promoters, he's got a successful stable of fighters there and all will be making decent money. He's got a monopoly on Sky Sports and Sky Box Office.
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Yeah thats true but I was thinking, say a young Joe Calzaghe was starting off now. Instead of signing for Matchroom straight away, could he not concentrate on smaller purses but live on ITV, building himself a big following, obviously fly up the rankings, even win a belt on free TV? The exposer would surely be much bigger than being on PPV all the time.
 
Deaths and serious brain injuries are actually more common in the lower weight classes. It is the lack of power that is the problem, in that the risk of a fighter suffering a brain injury, not getting knocked out and being able to carry on fighting is higher.

Deaths in bare knuckle boxing were relatively uncommon. As soon as fighters started wearing gloves deaths started to increase.

Revan said:
I watched that match. It was brutal. Likely, the worst beating I have ever seen.
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It was a crazy fight but they didn't have standing counts in those days so as soon as Wilard was back on his feet Dempsey was on him again.

It was a very different back then. Sam Langford, for example, considered the greatest fighter not to win a world title, he was still taking fights when he was almost blind!
 
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Thisistheone said:
I can only imagine! Doesn't really sound much like Boxing rather than a street fight.
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Funny thing is that Willard was world champion.


Classical Mechanic said:
Deaths and serious brain injuries are actually more common in the lower weight classes. It is the lack of power that is the problem, in that the risk of a fighter suffering a brain injury, not getting knocked out and being able to carry on fighting is higher.

Deaths in bare knuckle boxing were relatively uncommon. As soon as fighters started wearing gloves deaths started to increase.

It was a crazy fight but they didn't have standing counts in those days so as soon as Wilard was back on his feet Dempsey was on him again.
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Yeah, that was crazy. Dempsey was literally staying 1 foot away from Wilard, and as soon as he got managed to rise, he gots KO again.

Why di you think gloves increased death rate?
 
Thisistheone said:
Yeah thats true but I was thinking, say a young Joe Calzaghe was starting off now. Instead of signing for Matchroom straight away, could he not concentrate on smaller purses but live on ITV, building himself a big following, obviously fly up the rankings, even win a belt on free TV? The exposer would surely be much bigger than being on PPV all the time.
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It's changed a bit these days I guess. There's more money in the sport and Sky Sports is now a huge draw, long gone are the days where it wasn't a huge thing. Sky is now massive. Obviously it doesn't have the same amount of viewers as ITV but it get it's fair share.

In fairness to Hearn I don't think he sticks his boxers on PPV all the time, Joshua for example has only been on PPV once from memory and that was the undercard of Carl Froch. You've got to test the PPV numbers one day and Joshua has potential to be a huge PPV draw as Tyson was. If this card did a respectful number with Joshua headlining it imagine what a world title fight with him in could draw...especially one against someone like Tyson Fury.

They have a lot of world champions in their rank. A top fight for Kell Brook should be PPV fights now really, fights like Quigg vs. Frampton the same as they will do big numbers.

I agree the 12th December could shouldn't be box office but it is quite a stacked card with a lot of British fighters. Joshua, Mitchell, Eubank Jr, Bellew and Campbell, people always get hypedi nto buying it.
 
Revan said:
Yeah, that was crazy. Dempsey was literally staying 1 foot away from Wilard, and as soon as he got managed to rise, he gots KO again.

Why di you think gloves increased death rate?
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It is because the gloves, by reducing the power in shots, increases the risk of a fighter suffering a brain injury whilst still being able to box on and take more punishment to the existing injury. Without gloves a big shot will result in the opposition fighter being unable to continue, essentially they would get punched in the head less.

Heavyweights hit harder and there are more knockouts. Smaller weight division fighters will take more blows to the head over a career increasing the risk of brain injury.
 
Yeah can't really argue with all that Ogg, just something I was thinking about as a different, old school route. I mean, if Joshua is on PPV now for a tune-up fight, well he's going to have to be on PPV for every single title fight he's involved in. It's asking a lot from the public.

Maybe ITV is pushing it in this day and age but it's possible he'd have a bigger following by keeping the PPV for a match vs Fury & having all his tune-up fights on Sky Sports 1.
 
Oggmonster said:
They have a lot of world champions in their rank. A top fight for Kell Brook should be PPV fights now really, fights like Quigg vs. Frampton the same as they will do big numbers.
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Criminal that Brook isn't really lined up for anything worthwhile. Doesn't have to be Khan either, someone like Garcia would do. Hearn needs to start stacking fights, like the last time Brook fought. Selby, Brook and Joshua all fought that night and was one of the best events of the year.
 
No it wasn't....since there were no competitive fights.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Criminal that Brook isn't really lined up for anything worthwhile. Doesn't have to be Khan either, someone like Garcia would do. Hearn needs to start stacking fights, like the last time Brook fought. Selby, Brook and Joshua all fought that night and was one of the best events of the year.
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Agreed, he is lined up to fight Timothy Bradley which could be a brilliant fight, big step up for brook though he's only fought 1 fighter close to that level (Porter) and some people thought he lost that. Although there's talk apparently of Pacquiao fighting Bradley in his last fight so who knows?!

Zen said:
No it wasn't....since there were no competitive fights.
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Mitchell vs. Linares was close til it got stopped. It was a good card.....Selby put on a great performance on it as well. Not every fight has to be hugely competitive to be enjoyable, sometimes it's good to watch a masterclass.
 
Oggmonster said:
Agreed, he is lined up to fight Timothy Bradley which could be a brilliant fight, big step up for brook though he's only fought 1 fighter close to that level (Porter) and some people thought he lost that. Although there's talk apparently of Pacquiao fighting Bradley in his last fight so who knows?!
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For my money Brook won that, but was closely fought fight. Bradley is immense, but I think Brook could beat him. I'd have him as slight favourite.

Also, fight has to happen in England.
 
Would love to see Brook vs Bradley. That'd be very interesting.

Pacman is also announcing his final opponent at the weekend, apparently. Crawford, Kahn & Bradley are in the mix.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
For my money Brook won that, but was closely fought fight. Bradley is immense, but I think Brook could beat him. I'd have him as slight favourite.

Also, fight has to happen in England.
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Yeah I think he edged it....I think he'd struggle hugely against Bradley, it'd be a 50/50 fight I think.

Yeah you'd hope so. Brook's problem seems to be he doesn't seem to be a draw in America at all and despite being champion he doesn't have any bargaining power it seems, if anything he's an afterthought.

I don't know if it's down to holding the title hostage and stupid negotiations butthere just seems to be no interest in him.

Thisistheone said:
Would love to see Brook vs Bradley. That'd be very interesting.

Pacman is also announcing his final opponent at the weekend, apparently. Crawford, Kahn & Bradley are in the mix.
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Khan will be begging for that fight, he's desperate for the Mayweather or Pacquiao pay day.
 
Thisistheone said:
Would love to see Brook vs Bradley. That'd be very interesting.

Pacman is also announcing his final opponent at the weekend, apparently. Crawford, Kahn & Bradley are in the mix.
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Shit. I thought that we'll see more matches from Pacman.
 
Revan said:
Shit. I thought that we'll see more matches from Pacman.
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The 36-year-old Pacquiao is due back in the ring on April 9 (HBO PPV) at a venue to be determined in Las Vegas for what is supposedly the final fight of his career, as he is likely to win a six-year term in the senate in the Philippines, which will keep him way too busy to continue boxing.
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Yeah it's a massive shame. Manny has been sensational over the last decade or so. A joy to watch and it'll be sad to see him retire.
 
Probably in the minority but I've always thought he looked pretty disinterested for his last few fights, since the politics stuff came into play with him it seems to have shown boxing is no longer his number 1 priority which is fair enough, the guys a national hero. His last 5-6 fights have been pretty unremarkable for the large part (probably with the exception of the Algieri walk over.

Good luck to him, similar to Mayweather I think they have the right to pick whoever they want for their last fight really, he's given plenty to the sport over the years.
 
Oggmonster said:
Probably in the minority but I've always thought he looked pretty disinterested for his last few fights, since the politics stuff came into play with him it seems to have shown boxing is no longer his number 1 priority which is fair enough, the guys a national hero. His last 5-6 fights have been pretty unremarkable for the large part (probably with the exception of the Algieri walk over.

Good luck to him, similar to Mayweather I think they have the right to pick whoever they want for their last fight really, he's given plenty to the sport over the years.
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Reminds me of the Rocky III quote from Mickey, the worst thing that can happen to a fighter is he becomes civilized. Pacquiao definitely seemed to have lost a bit since getting into politics. Then that Marquez ko happened.

As I type this it seems as if Bradley will be his opponent. So....Kahn vs Brook???
 
Few tweets/articles going around that Brook vs Khan will happen in the summer. It's even being suggested that Wembley has been booked for June 4th.



 
Revan said:
Funnily enough, I watched a few hours ago a KO collection of him.
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Did punch harder than Mike? A lesser boxer, slower for a start and less dynamic but that left hook is hellacious. Tua is also considered one of he greatest fighter not win a title. Tua - Tyson would have a been a shoot out.

Dempsy vs Wilard

 
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Classical Mechanic said:
Did punch harder than Mike? A lesser boxer, slower for a start and less dynamic but that left hook is hellacious. Tua is also considered one of he greatest fights not win a title. Tua - Tyson would have a been a shoot out.

Dempsy vs Wilard

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Probably yes. But Tyson was certainly faster which means that he probably would have been able to punch boxers that Tua wouldn't.

Fraizer IMO had an even better left hook, while also being very fast and having a near perfect chin.
 
Revan said:
Probably yes. But Tyson was certainly faster which means that he probably would have been able to punch boxers that Tua wouldn't.

Fraizer IMO had an even better left hook, while also being very fast and having a near perfect chin.
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Yeah, Tua was a decent bit slower than Mike and although did move his head he didn't move it as well as Mike. Still would have loved to see them square off.
 
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