You have to say neither has kicked on from their debut season which is really disappointing. Yes they are young, but so was Ronaldo, Rooney etc and they improved in their early years immensely. That is the standard a club like Utd must be aiming for. I would even loan Rashford or Martial out to a club where the pressure would be off, and they would get plenty game time, Stoke, Palace, WBA, a club who wont be fighting relegation, nor be competing for the top.
The Rashford and Martial predicament
- Thread starter TheReligion
- Start date
Lukaku and KDB where also at an elite club, there's more elite clubs than just United. Martial isn't getting much game time either and the lack of quality being chosen ahead of him would only encourage him more to move, if my manager was trotting out Lingard ahead of me every week I'd be on my way.
As a Manchester United fan I want him to stay, as I said in my original post "If I was Martial" I'd be leaving.
United are a much bigger club than Chelsea. My point stands he doesn't have better players ahead of him. Obviously he believes in his talent. You may be a quitter, I don't know but whatever. It obviously isn't how Martial is geared.
As Lukaku and KDB had a total of 13 games between them for Chelsea. Not really going to stand up he's in the same boat as them. Martial was involved in 42 games last season. So stop trying to make out he's not playing, as it isn't true.
I never said Chelsea were a bigger club than United. You said Martial is at an elite club which is a moot point since both Lukaku/KDB were. Unless your argument is that Chelsea aren't an elite club? You have no idea what Martial is thinking and he had no issues with looking for a move last season with his public comments.
If you count 42 "involvements" for United then at least be honest and do the same for Lukaku and KDB who played 24 times for Chelsea. Martial should be looking for a club were he plays every week, not make a bunch of substitute appearances and warming the bench vs top sides for Lingard.
No, I know what I'm talking about. Having seen probably every game that Park played for us I'd say I'm in a pretty good position to have an opinion on him.
Ji Sung Park was an anti-footballer. He was deployed by Ferguson primarily when we needed to stifle opposition, similar to Phil Neville. He had a impressive work rate and good positioning. Other than that he added very little to the team. He was perfect for the role he played. Sat on the bench, waited quietly to be used and carried out instructions well. Technically he wasn't anything special. His passing range was limited. He scored few goals. Wasn't very good at crossing.
He play 154 games in the Premier League, scored 19 goals and had 21 assists. He had cross accuracy of 23% and a shooting accuracy of 33%. He had a tackle success of 71%. Says a it all really.
https://www.premierleague.com/players/2940/Park-Ji-Sung/stats
Jesse Lingard has obviously played a lot less since he's a lot younger, but he has already scored two match winning goals in two finals for us, effectively helping us win two trophies.
But in general his stats are very similar.
5 goals, 3 assists in 51 games. 38% shooting accuracy. 18% cross accuracy and a 75% tackle accuracy.
How Lingard is deployed is also similar to how Park was, but personally I think he offers a bit more going forwards than Park did.
https://www.premierleague.com/players/4337/Jesse-Lingard/stats
@fergies coat
edit;
I just want to add, the period that Park played for us, 2005 - 2012 was a very successful period for us. We reached the champions league final 3 times during that period.
Lets for arguments sakes say United played on average over those 7 seasons 70 games a season. Thats 490 games total. Park played 154 time for us (appearances, so probably includes off the bench appearances - its a wikipedia stat so someone might want to confirm that?).
That means he played 31.5% of the games we played between 2005 - 2012. Not a lot is it. If he were as good as you're trying to make out he was, as in a lot better than Lingard, you'd expect him to have played a lot more than that.
Thought it was worth adding.
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Point being Chelsea are not a Real, United, Barca, Juve, Bayern level elite club.
Wow a whole 24 appearances between them. Martial is going far far better, over 90 appearances in 2 seasons.
Please tell me where I've said anything about knowing his thoughts? And do tell of these comments about him looking for a move last season?
On and a appearance is an appearance, not an involvement. No stats for involvements, they're called appearances. Martial usually does play every week, so why would he be looking to move? Highly paid, regularly involved and at a genuine top level club that wins things.
The only crybaby around here seems to be you
Oscar was never a superior player to KDB.
100% agree with @goin4glory Martial should leave as Mourinho is just been a dick to him. United is not the only elite club in the world.
Sorry buddy you are starting to sound like a Liverpool fan, you also seem to stuck in the past, this is the era where fecking PSG bullies Barcelona into selling one of their crown jewels. Chelsea has won 2 PL titles in the last three years whereas we are averaging 5th place despite spending as much as Chelsea.
Coming to the point the criticism of Mourinho for fielding Lingard and Rashford ahead of Martial is valid, what is the point of starting Lingard ahead of Martial? He runs around a bit more or offers defensive solidity? Guess what Carvajal got the assist for Casemiro's goal, so clearly Lingard offered nothing offensively or defensively.
Let's hope he starts against West Ham. If he put in a performance like they did against Real he'd be dropped for a couple of months. Time to give him a fair crack
Martial needs to take his chance when it comes and be consistent.....as for Rashford, he gave us a foothold in the Super Cup when he came on, but he needs to sharpen his finishing - his fluffed chance when put through by 'Mickey' was a no brainer to slot in at the near post as their goalie dived anticipating across goal.....lacks a bit of composure and he needs to harness some and get ruthless when in front of the sticks....
Nonsense. He contributes to more goals than our other attacking option bar our striker. Compare him to lingard who in the league contributes to a goal or assist every 600 minutes last year.
Shocking. How anyone can think Lingards work Rate makes up for it is beyond me. We struggle to score yet consistently start a player who has proven he cannot do so reliably.
While i dont support starting Lingard at any games, i also dont see Martial as a reliable attacking option at all.
Chelsea are an elite level club even if they don't match your definition. They've won as many major titles as us over the previous 10 years as well as 2 premier league titles in the last 3. Both Lukaku and KDB were at an elite club and left due to a lack of game time but you wouldn't call either of them out for crying.
Are you even capable of following the logic of your own previous posts on this subject? You said "Obviously he believes in his talent. You may be a quitter, I don't know but whatever. It obviously isn't how Martial is geared" Please explain how you know what Martial is thinking unless you're a part time mind reader?
Martial move last season:
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.../man-united-martial-transfer-sevilla-12376929
http://www.skysports.com/football/n...leave-man-utd-for-sevilla-says-forwards-agent
There's plenty more if you google Martial/Sevilla.
Once again you can't even follow your own logic on a previous post. You were the one who used "involved" in order to duke your own stats. I'll quote it again so it's easier to follow.
"As Lukaku and KDB had a total of 13 games between them for Chelsea. Not really going to stand up he's in the same boat as them. Martial was INVOLED in 42 games last season"
Why were you ok with including every appearance in every competition for Martial last season but not doing the same for KDB and Lukaku at Chelsea? An appearance is an appearance not an involvement. No stats for involvements, they're called appearances.
Great counter argument.
No worries mate I'll follow my own logic and conclude you're a bit too involved in all matters around Martial. Maybe you need to go have a camomile tea in a dark room. Over and out....
Maybe you should learn basic reading comprehension.
Baffling how every season we all congregate here to complain about youngsters not being played enough. Our concerns should be on their coaching and how best they will progress going forward.
For a club like United, at their age 26 games on average is plenty enough. I personally think Jose is done a brilliant job on game time for them. Just don't think they are progressing as should be expected as young players and that down to coaching.
It might be a case of them needing time to adapt or management being more focused on team success rather than nurturing individual talent. Either way they'll need to work under the same mgmt team for a year more or 2 for their game to take the right shape.
For a club like United, at their age 26 games on average is plenty enough. I personally think Jose is done a brilliant job on game time for them. Just don't think they are progressing as should be expected as young players and that down to coaching.
It might be a case of them needing time to adapt or management being more focused on team success rather than nurturing individual talent. Either way they'll need to work under the same mgmt team for a year more or 2 for their game to take the right shape.
What has Lingard got to do with anything? I could name plenty of players who aren't good enough to play for United that doesn't excuse Martial's poor return last year
If Martial had set the world alight when he played last year I could understand people being frustrated but his output was poor.
It's not up to Jose to find a place for Martial at Utd, it's on Martial to prove he belongs. I hope he does
Yeah mate, sorry we can't be all as clever as you. Or go to such lengths to look a tool.
No need to apologise IQ is largely hereditary.
Makes me really sad that in a market where people like Mbappe are going for 150 million we have this really talented guy like Martial who we are just completely ruining. In a team so desperate for creativity it is just crazy that Martial can't get 90 minutes in pre season even . I am all for supporting Jose but his treatment of Martial has been ridiculous and we all know that . Might as well sell this guy and get some money back because he won't be playing much
This is the problem. People want another Rooney and Ronaldo situation but aren't willing to give players the same chances.
Rooney and Ronaldo were unquestionable starters for 3 seasons at United before we finally won the league. In that period we only won one league cup and often played some terrible football. They were both allowed all the time and opportunity to improve and elevate their game to Manchester United standards.
Rashford and especially Martial have not been afforded the same luxury. Martial at 20 had a better season than either Rooney or Ronaldo. And people now want him to go out on loan for fecks sakes. Not sure who's to blame more. Jose for being unable to work with such a huge talent or the fans for lacking any sort of patience.
I think with Martial just lacks that fight. He doesn't seem bothered and switches off. Hopefully this is not a serious character flaw. He just needs to leave everything in training and everything on the pitch. He just doesn't seem to. He should speak to Ronaldo and spend day and night training. That's what it takes and Ronaldo had that fierce drive to be the best and would have run through walls to get there. Would Martial? Not seeing it....
The thing is at that time we had a fantastic squad who were winning regularly, and easily finishing top or 2-3 every season, so could afford the luxury of carrying a youngster as well. We aint got that luxury anymore.
Rashford is nowhere near ready to be a regular starter for the League or CL. Yes it's great he's from the academy and all that but people let their bias talk too much to the point where they become delusional when speaking about his contributions on the pitch. Being a back up striker for the League and CL while starting for FA and League Cup is where his level is really at. He has to improve a lot in the upcoming years if he ever hopes to be a deserving regular at a club and not just a squad option. While we've been struggling a lot since Sir Alex retired people really need to start having a better perspective on our own players and actually be realistic on their output.
Martial should be a starter - bought for big money, very talented, already showed his massive potential and is probably not very pleased with the treatment he's been getting. If this continuous in this season he will probably end up leaving which would be a good choice for him and a bad choice for us. Unfortunately looks like this will be another massive Jose failure where a very talented younger player will end up in another club where he will start tearing at a part and we as fans are gonna be scratching our heads on how badly we've mismanaged him. And also Jose will be gone by that point so we won't be able to even properly express our anger towards him
Martial should be a starter - bought for big money, very talented, already showed his massive potential and is probably not very pleased with the treatment he's been getting. If this continuous in this season he will probably end up leaving which would be a good choice for him and a bad choice for us. Unfortunately looks like this will be another massive Jose failure where a very talented younger player will end up in another club where he will start tearing at a part and we as fans are gonna be scratching our heads on how badly we've mismanaged him. And also Jose will be gone by that point so we won't be able to even properly express our anger towards him
We didn't have a fantastic squad and we only won the league cup in that period and played terrible football for the most part. The league was weaker but our own squad was no better. You dont loan out a player of Martial's quality and if you do he probably doesn't come back. I just can't get my head around the idea of loaning him out. Its an absurd notion. He should be starting games on merit.
So between Rooney and Ronaldo starting the next 3 years we didn't easily finish top 3 and could afford to accommodate them in your opinion? Also martial hasn't exactly been playing that well to get a place on merit as you say, otherwise this discussion on this site wouldn't be on here, as it wouldn't be needed.
I don't like the comparison of Rooney and Ronaldo with Rashford and Martial. Did people even watch Rooney and Ronaldo when they were young? They showed potential to be the best player in the future and they both were in the category of very rare players. While both Martial and Rashford never had the same potential even if we judge their first season. The expectation are too high.
Can't agree with this sentiment at all. In attack is where we are most lacking, so why should we loan out two of our attackers?
Rashford burst on to the scene out of nowhere, which I think shocked anyone associated with the club, from internally to the fans. That created an enormity of pressure when he only really started for about three months. A drop-off could have been expected given he was always going to play less with Zlatan's arrival. He's still 19 and I don't believe we should use Ronaldo and Rooney as the benchmark for everyone.
Martial has admittedly gone very backwards, but a lot of that can be attributed to his own personal problems he had last season. Again, a young player who has shown exactly what he is capable of and it would be foolish to let a player like that go. We're stripped to the bare bones for reliable attacking players. We can't allow anyone to leave right now.
ThisRashford is nowhere near ready to be a regular starter for the League or CL. Yes it's great he's from the academy and all that but people let their bias talk too much to the point where they become delusional when speaking about his contributions on the pitch. Being a back up striker for the League and CL while starting for FA and League Cup is where his level is really at. He has to improve a lot in the upcoming years if he ever hopes to be a deserving regular at a club and not just a squad option. While we've been struggling a lot since Sir Alex retired people really need to start having a better perspective on our own players and actually be realistic on their output.
Martial should be a starter - bought for big money, very talented, already showed his massive potential and is probably not very pleased with the treatment he's been getting. If this continuous in this season he will probably end up leaving which would be a good choice for him and a bad choice for us. Unfortunately looks like this will be another massive Jose failure where a very talented younger player will end up in another club where he will start tearing at a part and we as fans are gonna be scratching our heads on how badly we've mismanaged him. And also Jose will be gone by that point so we won't be able to even properly express our anger towards him
His out put was poor yet we played players in place of him who's output was even worse. Makes a lot of sense when we scored 20 less goals than the other top 5
There are some fanboys on this forum and for whatever reason, they do seem to gravitate towards Martial.
Mate, we don't know what was going on training.
Jose likes players who will run through brick walls for him. And it would explain why Rashford, Lingard and Fellaini all get regular game time.
Martial on the other hand has a very disinterested demeanour about him and perhaps Jose just doesn't like that attitude.
My guess is that on the training pitch, Martial puts in less effort than some of our less talented players.
Martial wants to stay at the club.
He's said this himself on numerous occasions and even took to Twitter to tell people like you to shut the feck up.
Why keep pushing this narrative.
I only said one to help them and us long term. A season playing regular for a mid table club without the pressures of playing for Utd would do the world of good.
My main Problem with both of them (and also Pogba) is that they look as if they are trying to do too much by themselves. What I am missing a bit from our players is the positional awareness not only of oneself but also of the movement from the other Team members.
Martial and Rashford are both very good at running at the defenders and beat their man quite often but in the end this is producing a lot of effort and miles run without leading to effective results.
Both of them seem to prefer going into 1:1 situations instead of sometimes creating space with simple passing before trying to run behind the defenders.
Top wingers are doing both.
Martial and Rashford are both very good at running at the defenders and beat their man quite often but in the end this is producing a lot of effort and miles run without leading to effective results.
Both of them seem to prefer going into 1:1 situations instead of sometimes creating space with simple passing before trying to run behind the defenders.
Top wingers are doing both.
Play Martial on the left and Rashford on the right, absolve them of defensive duties and let them attack, attack and attack. We have a midfield who can provide defensive shield if required. I know they are not at the same level as Real Madrid and Barcelona forwards, but look how they are using their attackers. Some managers would kill for an opportunity to have the same attack as ours.
I was directly referencing what he said last year. Maybe try reading the conversion and understand the context before you start posting nonsense.
I understand you're talking baloney and are too emotionally involved with Martial to have a rational discussion with.