I'm really hoping that they'll be our first choice striker and left winger in the future. They have all the talent in the world to do it.
The Rashford and Martial predicament
- Thread starter TheReligion
- Start date
You're clutching at straws mate. I mean, Jose talked about Rashford here, but didn't mention anyone else, good for him to praise Rashford. But the point is, both players tried things in games and failed, but you are happy with Rashford for trying, but you're not happy with Martial. It's weird, but of course, Mourinho is always right, that's the line you're toeing, no problem with that. I judge all our players equally.
Nope. You're welcome to try and work it out though.
Rashford doesn't score, he deserves support.
Martial doesn't score , oh, his attitude is bad..
If you can't see the double standard, you're deluded.
Martial doesn't score , oh, his attitude is bad..
If you can't see the double standard, you're deluded.
Great insightful stats - thanks!I think under Mourinho, Rashford is a better option off the bench than Martial is but at the same time, Rashford is way more likely to be used as a starter than Martial is.
I'd like to try and see us get the best out of both of them as they both provide something different but I think Mourinho sees room in the starting XI for one of them and Rashford will be the preferred option, with the exception of big games like tonight where he loves to use Lingard.
Here are the stats for last season:
The really worrying thing is seeing how ineffective all but Rashford have been off the bench, and even then Rashford's stats aren't fantastic.
I can't see Mourinho starting both this season in games, so bearing that in mind I'd personally have two of Mata, Mkhitaryan and Martial as starters with whoever is left out as well as Rashford used mainly as subs though I guess it depends on formation we'll be using. I think Mourinho will opt for Rashford and Mkhitaryan/Mata to start most games with whoever is left out used along with Lingard or Martial as subs.
As off bench game changers they have all failed. Makes sense for Rashford given his inconsistent finishing skills.
I'd say it's a still up to them to prove their case through game winning contributions. If they can impress via that route, any talk of bias will disappear.
Given Mourinho's pragmatic approach and the unmissable expectations for this season, he will very quickly gravitate towards players that truly help him win matches. Simple as that.
Do you know what disgrace means?
Let me state here that I have nothing but love for Rashford, he's amazing, even though I think Martial is superior. They shouldn't be pit against each other, we should be doing everything to nurture both players into maturity. What i find disgraceful though is starting Lingard when we have Martial.
Do you want to have a conversation acting like a condescending prick?
Lingard should never be starting. He's a mid table player at best.
If I was Martial I'd leave. Mourinho won't give many minutes to players he doesn't trust.
If I was Martial I'd leave. Mourinho won't give many minutes to players he doesn't trust.
Cool it young jedi!
Mourinho sets his teams up not to lose, so he would rather the work rate of an average player like Lingard over Martial's flair and match-wining abilities. It seems that as long as Mourinho is here Martial doesn't have a future on the wings here.
Then why doesn't Martial consistently play or start over Rashford considering they are competing for the same left sided role the majority of the time?
It's clear as day that Jose trusts Rashford more than Martial. If that wasn't the case, then Martial would be playing ahead of Rashford or both wouldn't play. Wasn't it Rashford and Lingard up top against Chelsea last year at OT? Martial didn't even make the bench this match.
One thing is clear though, Martial has more natural ability than Rashford. The pace, the quickness, dribbling, the way he carries a ball forward, etc. If Martial can unlock his talent on a consistent basis and contribute more for his teammates, United would easily challenge for the league.
Stop playing Mikhi on the wing its dreadful to watch.
Mata should be starting right wing
Martial on the left wing
Rashford should be used shrug duties upfront with Lukaku
Mata should be starting right wing
Martial on the left wing
Rashford should be used shrug duties upfront with Lukaku
I'll never know, not sure anyone of us here genuinely knows either. It's probably the same reason Herrera didn't play a lot under LVG, and it wasn't because Herrera wasn't trying, you know, sometimes managers just prefer certain players and they have their reasons, it happens, It's fine, it's their decision.
Play a 4-2-3-1, Martial on the left, Rashford on the right, Lukaku through the middle, Matic and Pogba in mid, with the 3rd mid being Miki/Mata or Herrera in bigger games to make it more of a 3 man midfield. Rashford is at his best in a two up top formation, never liked him on the left, though he's decent on the right, so since our right wingers are shite, might as well play him there.
Martial is a more clinical finisher, better dribbler and has a higher ceiling. Rashford has better work ethic and other Rooney like qualities like doing a job wherever.
They both need to start with Mata. This obsession with getting in crossing wingers is absurd given the level of talent that both Rashford and Martial possess.
Ok. I have seen you claiming this on a few threads. So when did this happen? Time and/or gifs would be appreciated. From what I remember, Rashford was average, pace without awareness and end-product. But, yeah he was marginally better than Lingard.
You do think football fans learn over time, this is exactly like Roo and Ron days, they weren't good enough to beat a very good AC Milan side and fans wanted replacement. 
If I was Martial, I'd be busting a gut to perform as the Manager wants. Lad is at an elite club and hopefully he's not a cry baby who'd look to leave and realises how lucky he is.
Rashford played more games than anyone last year.
U can say he played on the left yadda yadda but he had chances to score and didn't take them all last season even playing from the left. He needs to be more clinical.
Having said that I would be starting him all day on the left instead of lingard at moment as despite his inconsistent finishing he is probably still our best option there.
If he continues To lack the clinicality of a top forward he has no complaints if dropped
They both need spaces to run with the ball, whether they find them in a 4231, 433, 352 or God knows what formation is irrelevant. They must have spaces to run into with or without the ball or else they're both easily nullified. Against organized defenses Martial lacks the off the ball movement and the ability to foresee possible combinations with his teammates in tight spaces between the lines. He just puts his head down and storms like a bull at his marker. Rashford, on the other hand, "sees" what's the right thing to do more often but he still lacks the technical abilities on the ball to pull it off at a good ratio. Yesterday, for example, he set himself up nicely for either a goal or an assist but he failed to deliver because he needed an extra touch or a second more to adjust his body.
Bottom line is they must be provided with the opportunity to exploit their pace (Rashford) or their dribbling skills (Martial) while running at opponents in 1v1 situations. Whatever the formation and whether they are deployed left, right or center, the attacking transitions must aim to provide them (and the others) that. And it's not only about these two, most of our attacking/creative options flourish in transition plays rather than in possession ones. They aren't good at beating opponent's from a standing position and they aren't good at making things happen in tight spaces. That's why a limited but with good movement between the lines like Lingard gets so many minutes in our team.
So, improve the transitions and use the creativity and the passing range of the midfield to allow the front three to find themselves in or 3v3 or 3v4 situations more often. That's the only way to get the best out of them, at least until they improve other aspects of their game.
Bottom line is they must be provided with the opportunity to exploit their pace (Rashford) or their dribbling skills (Martial) while running at opponents in 1v1 situations. Whatever the formation and whether they are deployed left, right or center, the attacking transitions must aim to provide them (and the others) that. And it's not only about these two, most of our attacking/creative options flourish in transition plays rather than in possession ones. They aren't good at beating opponent's from a standing position and they aren't good at making things happen in tight spaces. That's why a limited but with good movement between the lines like Lingard gets so many minutes in our team.
So, improve the transitions and use the creativity and the passing range of the midfield to allow the front three to find themselves in or 3v3 or 3v4 situations more often. That's the only way to get the best out of them, at least until they improve other aspects of their game.
Well, Berbatov wasn't entirely a success here and Ozil doesn't seem to be in demand with the bigger clubs either. So maybe there is a problem with that personality and style. Mourinho isn't the first manager to criticize Martial btw, his previous managers have had issues with him as well. He's also not the only manager to think like this. Fergie would bench Nani for Valencia for work-rate reasons as well, and people had the same complaints that Nani wasn't being given the run of games he needed to find his way into form.
The problem is that players like Martial have a very low bottom level, so when they're not at it they're a complete liability. The flipside is they're match-winners on their day. Mourinho is a coach who will take a 6/10 from most positions instead of a wildcard, and rely on a few strong individual performances and his tactics to win the day. Unless Martial can raise his bottom level or prove that he has enough good days to be worth betting on, Mourinho isn't going to set the team up around him.
It's a shame because we can all see the potential is all there, and it just requires both player and manager to be a little less stubborn and show some trust in one another. I'd rather we gave Martial his chance with a run of games early in the season and know where we stand.
Personally, I prefer to see Martial playing as LW, mainly because he has more potential than Rashford at that position.
Reasons that I think Jose will play Rashford over Martial as LW, if everyone is fit and not tired.
1. Relatively speaking, as of now, Rashford outperform Martial @ LW, marginally
2. Jose said Rashford "earn" his trust late last season
3. During pre-season, Jose played Rashford as LW, and sometimes RW
4. Super cup decision, that Jose chose to play Rashford as LW
5. Rashford has better work rate, for both offense and defence
Martial will hav to earn his starting position from now on.
Thoughts ?
Reasons that I think Jose will play Rashford over Martial as LW, if everyone is fit and not tired.
1. Relatively speaking, as of now, Rashford outperform Martial @ LW, marginally
2. Jose said Rashford "earn" his trust late last season
3. During pre-season, Jose played Rashford as LW, and sometimes RW
4. Super cup decision, that Jose chose to play Rashford as LW
5. Rashford has better work rate, for both offense and defence
Martial will hav to earn his starting position from now on.
Thoughts ?
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Both should play as rotational player. Martial is good enough to play and he will get plenty of mins.
Rashford is not good enough to be starter and quite poor as a winger he hardly creates anything and struggles to score goals as well and it's laughable to suggest he outperforms Martial in that position .
Agreed Martial needs to earn Mourinho's trust but even after good performances he gets dropped and clearly sees Mourinho rewarding continued mediocrity from the likes of Rashford and Lingard he has every reason to feel aggrieved .
We are not making top four let alone title challenge as some seem to dreaming if Rashford and Lingard are regulars for us this season.
He didn't get a single minute when we were a goal down and still had a sub left. And that after a good preseason.
At this point he has no reason to believe he has a future here.
I'd start Martial on the left, and give him a good run in the first 11. Those first three matches in the league are ideal for him to cement that spot for himself.
As for Rashford, I'd use him as back up to Lukaku or Martial. Start him in the cup matches too.
They'll both be very important for us this season, but they won't score over ten goals each imo.
As for Rashford, I'd use him as back up to Lukaku or Martial. Start him in the cup matches too.
They'll both be very important for us this season, but they won't score over ten goals each imo.
Obviously he disagrees, unless you are either him or have spoken to him personally. Or maybe you've had a chat with Jose?
I'm pretty sure he knows he's in the managers plans, as it has been extremely obvious who he did and didn't want since he took over. Depay, Bastian and Morgan all prime examples.
This! A hundred times this.
Should be loaned, no question - player like him should be playing more
Why a predicament? Play them both with Lukaku
Both will play against minnows. And if they are brilliant, maybe, just maybe, they will start in (some) big games.
Ideally Rashford and Martial needs to do their learning process in tandem with experienced world class players taking the pressure off them.
Rashford would be a better option than Lingard or Mkhi on the right. He's a far better player than Lingard and Mkhi is generally pretty poor on the right.
The left is a problem though because we need a winger who can actually cross on one wing at least. Perisic would have been ideal but Martial would basically be a backup who could play on either flank or up front as needed.
The left is a problem though because we need a winger who can actually cross on one wing at least. Perisic would have been ideal but Martial would basically be a backup who could play on either flank or up front as needed.
Lingard is a squad player , but the only position he looks good is on the right. Rashford should not be made to play on the right.
Yeah, everyone should be. It's so obvious.
Apart from the small problem of, you know, having the players to do it...
The issue is, if, as some people have suggested, neither can cross, neither score enough goals and both make the wrong decision on a regular basis then are they actually that good?
I rate them both, but this is the predicament for Jose. He can't finish the season in 5th and then turn around and say "ah but look at all the minutes I gave Marcus and Anthony". It's up to them now to develop their games. I don't buy this lack of game time argument because (I can't be arsed to check the stats) but I bet they both have played more games at their respective ages than the Neville's, Beckham, Scholes and Butt
I rate them both, but this is the predicament for Jose. He can't finish the season in 5th and then turn around and say "ah but look at all the minutes I gave Marcus and Anthony". It's up to them now to develop their games. I don't buy this lack of game time argument because (I can't be arsed to check the stats) but I bet they both have played more games at their respective ages than the Neville's, Beckham, Scholes and Butt
That's all good but then why the feck does he pick Lingard? id understand Jose having doubts over Martial and Rashford but to pick Lingard ahead of them is a joke.
Put it this way if Lingard starts the majority of games this season then we aren't even challenging for the league and to add to that we'll probably lose one of our top talents In Martial next summer, he's not gonna sit on the bench for 2 seasons while mediocre players get gametime. Jesse should be a squad player, he's got a role at United but it shouldn't be a starter.
Martial Lukaku Rashford
That front 3 could cause lots of damage, it seems so obvious yet I expect probably Mkhit and Mata to start against West Ham with Lukaku upfront alone.
I think its just a case that Martial the type of player he is has to play to a very high level for Jose to accept the lack of effort.
He'll get minutes and if he proves his effectiveness then he'll earn his spot. Martial starting or not isn't the end of the world but every match day thread seems to think it is.
He'll get minutes and if he proves his effectiveness then he'll earn his spot. Martial starting or not isn't the end of the world but every match day thread seems to think it is.