Not deluded...more optimistic.
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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I just want a manager with a more attacking playing style, "the United way" if you can call it that.
I thought Mourinho was the right manager for us when he came but after seeing him time after time parking the bus in big matches or close matches. And using Fellaini as target man,hoofing the ball towards him the last 15 mins of a game chasing a draw or win is just soul shattering.
I want to be entertained with beautiful football but instead i have to watch Fellaini, Lingard, Mctominay,Lindelof start and play against Watford. Seem like great people and all that but not United class players.
The Mctominay-Sanchez substitution yesterday sums it up really under Mourinho, safe and boring.
I thought Mourinho was the right manager for us when he came but after seeing him time after time parking the bus in big matches or close matches. And using Fellaini as target man,hoofing the ball towards him the last 15 mins of a game chasing a draw or win is just soul shattering.
I want to be entertained with beautiful football but instead i have to watch Fellaini, Lingard, Mctominay,Lindelof start and play against Watford. Seem like great people and all that but not United class players.
The Mctominay-Sanchez substitution yesterday sums it up really under Mourinho, safe and boring.
We beat whoever was in front of us. A trophy is a trophy, nobody is saying it was an amazing achievement and should be celebrated like a CL win but we shouldn't just forget about it and pretend it never happened. Some memorable moments happened in that EL run too like Rashford's extra time winner against Anderlecht. OT was bouncing that night.
I'm glad we went for it. The EL was the only major trophy we were missing from our trophy cabinet.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/23330815
Mourinho says he would be disappointed to win the Europa League..
I actually liked to win it - but my problem with him is that he is a short term path to success & now he is miles behind some of the clubs pure abilities & success does not seem to come. For that reason I compare him to managers who are made for more moderate lengths of time with a bit more of a long term plan to their football.
Hound dog - the quality of the squad is not what I am talking about - whether Rashford gets in to city or not is not the issue & cannot be judged.
However - Pereira or Fellaini for Pep? Rashford or Lukaku for Pep ? Martial or Lukaku for Pep, one striker getting all the goals or a diverse balance of squad shared between the LF-CF-RF vs LW & RW supplying a target man.
What about control of the game? Would Pep allow us to be dominated by Watford? Giving up possession against them to counter? Would he like the fact that his striker is coming back to RB to tackle a man who should have been pressured high up with face to goal instead. Would he get more out of pogba? Would he have analysed our CB's & thought that three at the ba was better & Someone like Blind playing there would have been good considering we still need a ball playing CB & Lindelöf is not one. Would he have utilised TFM or Tuenzebe due to their decent ability on the ball.
Etc etc. JOSE purposefully has favorites in his squad & someone like Lukaku & Fellaini are now an injury from us losing our game plan. Our game plan to this day revolves around individuals as much as it did when Zlatan came in; a pure team divided character to get the goals, get the assists, get the possession & get the strong hold & get the win needs to be had at United in my eyes - not that targeted at 1 or 2 players who happen to be 6ft6.
Mourinho says he would be disappointed to win the Europa League..
I actually liked to win it - but my problem with him is that he is a short term path to success & now he is miles behind some of the clubs pure abilities & success does not seem to come. For that reason I compare him to managers who are made for more moderate lengths of time with a bit more of a long term plan to their football.
Hound dog - the quality of the squad is not what I am talking about - whether Rashford gets in to city or not is not the issue & cannot be judged.
However - Pereira or Fellaini for Pep? Rashford or Lukaku for Pep ? Martial or Lukaku for Pep, one striker getting all the goals or a diverse balance of squad shared between the LF-CF-RF vs LW & RW supplying a target man.
What about control of the game? Would Pep allow us to be dominated by Watford? Giving up possession against them to counter? Would he like the fact that his striker is coming back to RB to tackle a man who should have been pressured high up with face to goal instead. Would he get more out of pogba? Would he have analysed our CB's & thought that three at the ba was better & Someone like Blind playing there would have been good considering we still need a ball playing CB & Lindelöf is not one. Would he have utilised TFM or Tuenzebe due to their decent ability on the ball.
Etc etc. JOSE purposefully has favorites in his squad & someone like Lukaku & Fellaini are now an injury from us losing our game plan. Our game plan to this day revolves around individuals as much as it did when Zlatan came in; a pure team divided character to get the goals, get the assists, get the possession & get the strong hold & get the win needs to be had at United in my eyes - not that targeted at 1 or 2 players who happen to be 6ft6.
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No you misunderstand me completely. And suggesting someone is over-sensitive when you call them spoilt is, well, pathetic.
Too late, this has already been touched upon.
So what the heck were you saying then?!
Also, I never once called you spoilt - I suggested that maybe the reason why some of our fans were so unimpressed by winning the EL was because they had been spoilt by our earlier success. Go back and read again.
So what did Mourinho spend all that money on these past couple of years?
As soon as we hit a run of bad form or suffer a calamity like Sevilla the reaction from the fans against Mourinho and the subsequent Mourinho reaction against the reaction will be so severe that it'll result in him going at the end of the season. After the Spurs game lots of fans had picked up the pitchforks and were starting to form battalions before marching on Old Trafford.
He has been hit and miss on the transfer market, just like pretty much all managers are. What is a recurring theme is that United refuse to spend A-grade money on players and then look all surprised when their signings do not perform like A-grade players. Pogba and Lukaku are the sole recent exceptions to this.
In the last ten years (so this includes SAF's last five years as well), how many fully satisfying signings have United made? DDG, RVP, erm... Nani and Valencia?
There is a problem with recruitment at United that goes far beyond Mourinho.
Agreed. I want him to succeed. But I just don’t see it happening. Been grotesque so far to be honest.
You are correct. It was away. Nonetheless, it was beyond negative. We parked the bus for 90 minutes. We didn’t even try and play. There’s keeping it tight and hitting on the break, and then there’s that. I remember being truly disgusted by that approach. It truly sent the wrong message to the fans and players, and the team lost attacking impetus after that.
Obviously it's my assessment and hence I'm expressing it, which is pretty much the point of us being here. Some figure he's the right man for the job and will lead us to success. I don't and performances like yesterday's are far from changing my opinion.
As Gary Neville says, you can feel when something special is brewing, at this moment I'm as far from that feeling as possible.
I wish he succeeds obviously, honestly I'm not the type to give a darn about anyone's personality. The proof is in what happens on the field. When he got the job I wanted him to take us back to where we belong, as of now I pretty sure he wont. If he does, I'll be the happiest man on this forum.
He has either bought or kept those players. IMO He's not resourceful enough for a club like us. We're huge club with big funds but we don't have unlimited funds. You have to be able to work the market at a club like ours. Other giants of similar stature do that, we on the other hand keep the trash and buy players at absurd prices.
Recent evidence seems to suggest that United cannot match the fans' expectations if they are looking to be resourceful.
This is a problem that eclipses Mourinho. SAF had the core of his late-00s squad in his later years, the managers after him had nothing apart from a bit of cash, which was really not as much as it is made out to be by many. Given the state of the squad Mourinho inherited, I reckon that around half a billion would have been required to get the squad to compete for the title, and this is in an idealized scenario where all the signings made do well.
I also don't buy the "Mourinho" buys too much narrative. He won many titles and two CLs and, most of the time, he did so without necessarily having the best squad unlike some other managers I could name.
I'm really starting to question your memory. In your earlier post you said we'd won our first few games 3 or 4 nil then produced a "cowardly" performance against Liverpool out of the blue, but looking back the Premier League match directly before that was Huddersfield 2-1 Manchester United.
Then just now you say "the team lost attacking impetus after that", but the very next match was Watford 2-4 Manchester United, then match after but one a 4-1 vs Newcastle.
Yeah shit memory tbh.
Yh I agree with this, I believe our squad is overrated. I think you could easily find 2-3 better players in rival teams in every position bar GK.
Would class DDG as top quality, Pogba a rung below and then a general group of 6/10 players who sometimes raise their game to a 7/10. This makes for a highly functional and difficult to beat team but one that will fall far below the level of the European elite.
For all the talk about different managers and their philosophies, Man City under Pep struggled first season so went out and bought half a new team and then ran away with the league. We spent the second most and were comfortably second but miles off first. Liverpool invested massively this season (something the media are happy to let slide given they like Klopp - FYI he's outspent Mourinho and won nothing but anyway...) because that is the only way to close the gap. Now they look closer to where City are. Chelsea did the same with Sarri coming in and kept Hazard. It's not rocket science. Spurs didn't invest, we barely did (by our standards) and we're the two teams already chasing the top pack.
It's called 'blinkered, selective, agenda driven hindsight'. I think there's a cure that involves taking a good dose of magic mushrooms..
So actually setting up a system of play doesn't matter?! Just buy buy buy and everything will be okey?
Klopp and Pep had already shown they had a clear plan in place. A system of play they looked to implement which was visible to all who watched them. This enabled them to sanction purchases in line with their philosophies as they have gained the full confidence of their boards.
just to add, I watched United last season and to be honest I failed to see what type of team you were trying to be. It all looked so unplanned, no chemistry, no patterns of play. Only plan I saw involved Fellaini because anytime I saw him come on I knew exactly what United was going to do.
Not seen much of United this season (probably because I knew what to expect and didn't think it was worth the time) so maybe things have changed. Well makes for a better league so cheers!!
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Their systems were failing badly before they spent big to get the players they needed. Its not just buy buy buy but it is a prequisite, yes.
Spurs having a better squad than Utd is one of those things that baffles me. Do people just ignore how crap guys like Dier and Ali look for England when removed from the comfort zone of a working system at Spurs? Lingard is far more effective at that level than Ali, just looks a better player. What about Fellaini being more important for Belgium than Dembele, or a fit Shaw clearly ahead of Rose?
Spurs have Eriksen, Kane and a couple of good, if overhyped CBs. Trippier as well maybe, but this idea that only a couple of Utd players could get into their team is overplayed to support agendas. Spurs are good but there is a reason why they have not won anything.
Spurs have Eriksen, Kane and a couple of good, if overhyped CBs. Trippier as well maybe, but this idea that only a couple of Utd players could get into their team is overplayed to support agendas. Spurs are good but there is a reason why they have not won anything.
What recent evidence? We're not being resourceful with pennies here, that's more up spurs' alley. Mix spending big with spending smart and we'll get somewhere. We have to start seeing rewards for the money we've already spent though.
I am refering to the fact that United have brought in very few signings that turned out well in the last ten years or so(remember the summer when Ronaldo was replaced by Valencia Obertan and Owen?). This is a problem that has been there far before Mourinho. The only thing that did not change regarding the club during this period are the owners...
I'll wait to see how we fare in a big game before changing my opinion on this.
Yeah, those summers were a mess however since the great man left, we've had plenty of money to spend. We've just wasted it and are now acting surprised that we aren't doing better. Van Gaal and Jose have been taken for a ride in the market, or at times not been able to get the most of what they've bought. What are the owners supposed to do about that? Ask yourself this, how many of the players that Jose has bought has a higher value now than when we bought them, you'll find it's not many.
You mean managers?
I'd say the problem with recruitment is quite simply that managers have not been doing good enough work. Now, maybe it means we need to look beyond our managers when we select and sign new players, but it doesn't exactly clear Jose. You can't complain over lack of quality players when you've spent a good amount of money and brought quite a few good players.
And yes, being a good manager sometimes mean that you get a player for 30m and make him much better. Not say 'I bought him for 30m, so you can't expect him to be anything more than that'.
Actually, it would be a good start to make the more expensive players look like ones on the pitch.
@Hound Dog
Since we are comparing our team to others - I ask you a simple question because I want to know your opinion.
If we had Roberto firmimho - would we ever utilise him as a False 9?
Since we are comparing our team to others - I ask you a simple question because I want to know your opinion.
If we had Roberto firmimho - would we ever utilise him as a False 9?
I think even worse than the style of play for me was watching those talented players look seriously clueless and incompetent on the pitch. And it grinds my gears that many games were won by moments of individual brilliance rather than concerted team play and yet the blame is put on the players for not being brilliant enough.
We do look slightly better now, but not massively. Remains to be seen how good Mourinho can get us playing in this new style, given that it hasn't really been his strength over his long and glittering career.
Out of interest, since Sanchez was clearly tired and ineffective towards the end... who from the bench would you have subbed Sanchez for?
Who wants safe and boring substitutions when there's 6 minutes left and you're defending a 1 goal lead? Risky and exciting would have been far better. Pep would have swapped De Gea for Mata and pushed for the killer 3rd goal. Sums up Mourinho's dinosaur tactics really.
The sarcasm levels have peaked on here recently
LOL. What new style? Do you seriously believe that? We will play exactly like we did last season, we were 2 goals up and we reverted to park the bus against Watford.
It's not that we always have to make attacking subs or keep blindly attacking, we were already playing with 2 DMs and a CM and we were already parking the bus and adding in another young DM who is rather poor on the ball will only result in more problems in the final minutes. If a midfielder is being subbed in the final minutes to hold onto a lead then it should be to control possession.
Or perhaps we also needed to counter the threat in the air as Watford were gonna keep throwing balls into the box.
Mourinho's tactics haven't changed. He's wants a well organized defense with a devasting counter attack that relies on attackers individual brilliance in the final third to score goals. There really is no attacking "system" under Jose. The problem is we don't have those kind of attackers. He's also hoping that Lukaku can take on the Drogba role, but although physically similiar, are completely different players. Ibra, for his one season, was the perfect Mourinho striker both in playstyle and mentality. Lukaku just isn't that type of player.
But the crux of the problem is the board. They clearly did not back Jose this summer and didn't get him some key signing like Persisc in the previous summer. I love Jose throughout his career, but I do think his time is done here. However, there is no point in sacking him because the board won't back the new manager after the initial deadwood chop. I think United will just ride out Mourinho until his inevitable melt down that forces them to sack him. Could be this year, could be a couple down the road.
For all his faults and you can disagree with his approach to the game, but Mourinho is the only one I see at the club that actually wants to win. Desperate for it even. Everyone else from the board, to Woodward, to most of the players just seem content to coast along.
But the crux of the problem is the board. They clearly did not back Jose this summer and didn't get him some key signing like Persisc in the previous summer. I love Jose throughout his career, but I do think his time is done here. However, there is no point in sacking him because the board won't back the new manager after the initial deadwood chop. I think United will just ride out Mourinho until his inevitable melt down that forces them to sack him. Could be this year, could be a couple down the road.
For all his faults and you can disagree with his approach to the game, but Mourinho is the only one I see at the club that actually wants to win. Desperate for it even. Everyone else from the board, to Woodward, to most of the players just seem content to coast along.
It's not a big change ala Chelsea's Conte-Sarri transformation. But I definitely see more of an attempt to play quicker football and a bit more coordination in attack. We're obviously still pretty meh at it and to be happy with our current performances is to have seriously low expectations of a supposedly world class manager and a very good set of players. I think we'll get destroyed by most of the other big 6 because we seem so brittle now and we're not scoring enough to compensate. We can't even hold possession against Leicester and Watford. But I believe there's an attempt nevertheless, and perhaps inevitably so given the changes in his coaching staff.
Mata,10 times better than Mctominay to keep possesion or pass the ball forward.
Mata as a playmaking GK is actually a brilliant idea, He's too nice for people to score a goal against and has a nice pass. We should've played from the back.
There is nothing wrong with the style if it is done properly. I think he was hoping the likes of Sanchez and Pogba would provide that brilliance you mentioned, like a Hazard. Unfortunately Sanchez is proving a problem and do we stick with him hoping he comes right, or do we cut our losses and get someone else in. Pogba should just get on with his job and not let outside influences distract him. There were good signs in the first half on Saturday.
I hope Jose does get it right, but how long will be too long? We will be bringing more and more of his players, so do we get a manager with a similar style, or will it be a different manager with yet another major clearout on the cards?
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