Yeah that's the big question isn't it. Watford was a good win but the only big team we've played this season has beaten us.
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
- Thread starter Livewire1974
- Start date
- Status
Then Watford beat them. I am more worried about games like Brighton. To me our big problem is not taking chances when we get them. The Spurs game is a great example of that.
Or if our players actually knew how to control possession instead of hoofing it clear like relegation material, our defence wouldn't get bombarded with so many long balls. And we might as well score a few goals in the counter attack to kill off the games too.
Been waiting for someone to answer this simple question.
Goes to the those who think Mou would have a similar impact as Pep had he taken over at City. Really?
You think Aguero and Jesus would be leading strikers for a Jose Man City?! they'd probably be shifted to the left wing with Wilfred Bony as striker.
You think Silva and debruyne will play in a mid 3 with Gundugan holding? LoL!!
He'd probably keep Hart though, big characters et al.
Probably see Matic, Perisic and Lukaku instead of Gundugan, Sane, Bernardo Silva and Jesus. ha!
I am not even sure what we're playing for this year. Its almost like we are giving away a year just to get rid of Mourinho after having him for a respectable amount of time. If we keep him 3 years I guess it doesnt seem like that much of a failure and a rushed decision.
But what exactly are we playing for besides just waiting it out? We all concede more or less that City, Chelsea and Liverpool are better. Tottenham, maybe even Arsenal depending on how they gel under their new manager are arguably better.
We all also have come to terms that our football is uninspiring and all of our attacking players are underachieving.
So what exactly are we playing for? Seems we are just waiting it out, for Zidane I assume. And for our reputation sake, keeping a manager 3 years post Fergie doesnt seem as bad.
We have conceded we're not good enough for top 3. Conceded that our players are underachieving and football is bad.
Conceded that even top 4 might be out of reach because even Tottenham is probably better...
We are waiting it out. Seems failure is inevitable because we all realize we are not good and we cant even define what success is. I guess squezing in that 4th position. But since we dont even know what we are playing for this year would finishing 5th for example be regarded as failure or success?
But what exactly are we playing for besides just waiting it out? We all concede more or less that City, Chelsea and Liverpool are better. Tottenham, maybe even Arsenal depending on how they gel under their new manager are arguably better.
We all also have come to terms that our football is uninspiring and all of our attacking players are underachieving.
So what exactly are we playing for? Seems we are just waiting it out, for Zidane I assume. And for our reputation sake, keeping a manager 3 years post Fergie doesnt seem as bad.
We have conceded we're not good enough for top 3. Conceded that our players are underachieving and football is bad.
Conceded that even top 4 might be out of reach because even Tottenham is probably better...
We are waiting it out. Seems failure is inevitable because we all realize we are not good and we cant even define what success is. I guess squezing in that 4th position. But since we dont even know what we are playing for this year would finishing 5th for example be regarded as failure or success?
Basically. That seems to be the logical conclusion since the Eddy dictated op-ed appeared in the press. After stupidly giving Jose a one-year extension mid-season, we have no choice to stick with him until things go really sour. The only two scenarios in which Jose goes before the last game of the season are: (1) If he has meltdown of epic proportions that his continuation as our manager becomes untenable. (2) When we are mathematically out of the top4 running. We have no choice but to bear him until then.
There is literally zero chance of us winning either of the two top prizes or decent football under Jose this season. So, enjoy this season as a Everton or other similar teams fan will. With little expectations and hoping for the best. May be we'll have a good run in the league cup or something and surprise everyone.
I think we're playing for top 4 to be honest. Whether we finish 2nd or 4th doesn't really matter, it's not as if there's even any qualifiers to be skipped any more.
As you've said, seems we're just waiting it out to ensure the end of Mourinho is amicable and trouble-free.
Seems we want to create this image that everything is okay and that we are making progress under our third post Fergie manager but what we are actually doing, we are creating a bubble for us to live in while the rest of the football world sees us as more and more irrelevant and an after thought.
We are not challenging for premier league, not challenging for champions league, heck we are not even in the conversation.
But we are creating this bubble where beating Watford and hanging on for dear life, depending on De Gea to bail us out is success. All while top 3 are making strides, Tottenham is comfortably beating us, all of our attacking players are underperforming and playing defensive at Old Trafford vs Celta and Sevilla is acceptable.
In our bubble that we have created, things are fine...as long as De Gea bails us out against the likes of Watford.
Its amazing that our brand is still so strong. The fact we are doing so well in terms of brand strength, marketing and brand power is honestly so amazing and big props to all working in our board cuz despite bad performances we are still seen as one of the biggest clubs and will be able to lure some of the best players (when Mourinho is gone cuz it seems top players dont want to play for him anymore) Our marketing team, our board, theyre the real MVP.
We are not challenging for premier league, not challenging for champions league, heck we are not even in the conversation.
But we are creating this bubble where beating Watford and hanging on for dear life, depending on De Gea to bail us out is success. All while top 3 are making strides, Tottenham is comfortably beating us, all of our attacking players are underperforming and playing defensive at Old Trafford vs Celta and Sevilla is acceptable.
In our bubble that we have created, things are fine...as long as De Gea bails us out against the likes of Watford.
Its amazing that our brand is still so strong. The fact we are doing so well in terms of brand strength, marketing and brand power is honestly so amazing and big props to all working in our board cuz despite bad performances we are still seen as one of the biggest clubs and will be able to lure some of the best players (when Mourinho is gone cuz it seems top players dont want to play for him anymore) Our marketing team, our board, theyre the real MVP.
Last edited:
Whilst there is no reason to go overboard - it's a really simple question isn't it?
One of sterling or Sane would be replaced for a complete work horse like willian or perisic - a direct winger who holds width because historically Jose has only ever had one flair winger who cuts in within his team. Furthermore they would not be playing like LF or RF who finish moves off - more likely they be LW or RW - players who initiate attacks instead & cross the ball in.
No false 9's like firminho - strikers like Jesus would be a winger, I wonder if Aguer0 has the ability to play the type of football that Drogba or Lukaku does - I doubt it so maybe he would be a sub or a cutting in winger like eto'o was made to play.
Silva & de bryune have a similar type of football they like to play so we would only play one considering there would be severe lack of physicality in the team. So I'd guess that fernandinh0 & Gundogan would be playing together with only one of de bryune or silva in the team.
Defence - possibly lacks some physicality in defenders like stones.
As you said -even if Jose had a billion pounds; to suddenly assume that we would go for different type of players is wrong. Sterling would be trying to supply Lukaku upfront. Matic would be bought to provide cover for fernandinh0 or to even pair up with him to play with 2 DM's. Completely nullify ball playing defense until it becomes necessary by buying a bulky one. Ball playing goal keeper is not needed etc.
Money is irrelevant - Jose could never make Neymar - Suarez - Messi work for example - I doubt he would even try it; they lack the basic things that is historically required in Jose team like the schrulle that plays on the other side of hazard or the duff that plays on the other side of robben, the pandev that plays on the other side eto'o. Etc
Like most, I think I am just waiting for the "Great Leap Forward" when Mourinho's United come together and look like the top team in the EPL, rather than going into a lot of big games hoping rather than expecting to win. It still irks me - and I am certain I'm not the only one - that United's approach in the big games is to try and shut down the opposition down and stop them playing rather than to go out and win by being the more effective team in a footballing sense. What is worse is some of the meek surrenders in big games over the last period where United lose with barely a whimper or squeak.
I think what is most significant in this "stifling" approach is that United look to now be some way behind City and Liverpool and possibly Chelsea now as well. Early days, but top 4 might even be a struggle this season. Two years on and there are very few real signs of progress.
I think what is most significant in this "stifling" approach is that United look to now be some way behind City and Liverpool and possibly Chelsea now as well. Early days, but top 4 might even be a struggle this season. Two years on and there are very few real signs of progress.
Last edited by a moderator:
But but but Jose adapts to what he has, if he had those players he’d morph in to Pep but do it even better than Pep.
Truth is he probably wouldn’t have bought any of those players and would probably have just bought what he has at United except maybe added a few more like Peresic, William and the likes.
We played like this under Ferguson all the time too, people just don't seem to remember. Park instead of Nani to nullify the opposition etc. United has hardly ever been the team to simply have a best 11 and go out and dominate everyone in its path.
So his last two big money signings (fee or wages) have been Sanchez and Fred. None of who(m?) bring any sort of physicality in the traditional sense to the team, being tiny and all, and both of whom were heavily rumored to be sought after by Pep Guardiola's City. So they are very much signings similar to what Pep would pursue.
The last central defender he bought was Lindelof, who, like the likes of Stones, is considered to be a ball playing defender and who has been criticized regularly for his lack of physicality. Bailly to a certain extent has faced the same criticism.
Despite the fact that most on here have been crying out for a traditional winger who can cross, Jose still does not have one in his team and does play with inverted wingers, wingers to like to play more centrally etc. and he has also targeted those in his dealings (Mhiki and, again, Sanchez).
Then we have added one of the most technically gifted midfielders in the world in Pogba, who I would assume Pep would be all over had he had the chance.
Lukaku and Matic have been typical Jose signings, and personally I am glad for that. They have both been great for us and were needed. Apart from those two I don't really see that Jose through his transfer dealings for us has operated in a manner so different from Pep which could justify the criticism leveled at him (on these issues) in a lot of the latest posts of this thread.
The last central defender he bought was Lindelof, who, like the likes of Stones, is considered to be a ball playing defender and who has been criticized regularly for his lack of physicality. Bailly to a certain extent has faced the same criticism.
Despite the fact that most on here have been crying out for a traditional winger who can cross, Jose still does not have one in his team and does play with inverted wingers, wingers to like to play more centrally etc. and he has also targeted those in his dealings (Mhiki and, again, Sanchez).
Then we have added one of the most technically gifted midfielders in the world in Pogba, who I would assume Pep would be all over had he had the chance.
Lukaku and Matic have been typical Jose signings, and personally I am glad for that. They have both been great for us and were needed. Apart from those two I don't really see that Jose through his transfer dealings for us has operated in a manner so different from Pep which could justify the criticism leveled at him (on these issues) in a lot of the latest posts of this thread.
Last edited:
That’s a huge stretch and you know it. Park yeah was utilised for big games but more due to the effort he would put in. His ability to get back and still get forward and keep doing it for 90 minutes. There are certainly games where SAF aired on the more cautious side like against Arsenal or Barca but they aren’t comparable at all to what we do now. Absolute joke people trying to justify the tactics by using the occasional game against very good teams to apologise for us playing like we do now against most opposition.
Mourinho is holding everyone back and I think its sooooooo frustrating cuz I think our team is absolutely amazing if given the chance.I Ifyou can have Pogba, Martial, Rashford, Lukaku, Alexis, Lingard running on all cylinders, are you freaking kidding me.
Thats absolute fire. This team should be terrorizing opponents and our attack should be lethal.
Hows it possible that pretty much all our attackers are underachieving and only the likes of Fellaini can thrive Thats a joke yet for us Fellaini isnt isnt much less impactful than Pogba.
Its just frustrating. Would it be so hard to find someone like Southgate to take over.
People holding out hope that this will change under Mourinho, must dissapoint you. If Celta and then Sevilla a year later wasnt enough of an indication that nothing is changing, not sure what is.
Oh well, lets just wait it out. I assure you, this team is incredible. I sure hope we dont sell Pogba, Martial and Rashford cuz when they get going...they will dominate the world football.
Thats absolute fire. This team should be terrorizing opponents and our attack should be lethal.
Hows it possible that pretty much all our attackers are underachieving and only the likes of Fellaini can thrive Thats a joke yet for us Fellaini isnt isnt much less impactful than Pogba.
Its just frustrating. Would it be so hard to find someone like Southgate to take over.
People holding out hope that this will change under Mourinho, must dissapoint you. If Celta and then Sevilla a year later wasnt enough of an indication that nothing is changing, not sure what is.
Oh well, lets just wait it out. I assure you, this team is incredible. I sure hope we dont sell Pogba, Martial and Rashford cuz when they get going...they will dominate the world football.
Last edited:
Come on, it isn't that bad. I'm a major sceptic when it comes to Mourinho but the past two games have been good. And the way we've rallied round the club, both match-going fans and the wider community, has been great. If you're a potential candidate to replace Mourinho, such as Zidane or Pochettino, it can only make the job more attractive.
unfortunately you are attempting to apply logic to the demented ramblings of a pack of hyenas that have scented blood. This is not the thread for reasoned analysis.
Truer words have rarely been spoken.
I keep saying it here but I can't forget how SAF came to Dragao after a 2-2 with Porto in OT for the champions league knock outs. You played a very defensive 451 with Rooney as right midfielder marking our attacking left back. I was surprised to see United play that cautiously when they had to go for it after the two goal draw at home. Ronaldo scored that screamer after we lost our captain and best player to injury and United held to the 1-0 lead till the end. It was lauded as a tactical masterplan!
@sunama
It's more than just 'finishing 2nd'
You say Liverpool are spending money as if we haven't.
We've spent lots of money.
It's everything that surrounds him.
We lose to Sevilla - He bangs on about how it's not his fault and how he even came to OT and beat us
We lose the other week and he goes on about how he's won more premier league titles than the rest put together. (Nice timing)
It's all about him, always.
No, you're just misinterpreting him. In the age of ubiquitous social media, with the inescapable spotlight more than ever on famous people including managers in the hot seats of the most famous football clubs in the world, Mourinho is simply too smart to say things that sound as if he is agreeing with an intrusive media.
What do you want him to do? Act like a loser and say the media know all about it and he doesn't? Do a Moyes and ponder openly his insecure position? No matter what anybody thinks of Jose and no, I wasn't a fan of him taking United's reins, the man is a winner and shows it through the way he handles the media and others publicly questioning him and looking for news-making comments.
Sir Alex wasn't into admitting much, either. He was famous for refusing to acknowledge even valid points much of the time because he realised all that would do would be to undermine his own position and make him look weak, and be divisive to the club. Jose clearly believes the best form of defence is attack so good luck to him refusing to play the media game and instead reminding them of his success.
It was though? We were setting CL records at the time and that's how we tended to play away from home.
The last part of the game was exactly how we should have played it. We wasted multiple opportunities to get the third goal.
As others have said - both klopp & pep were struggling to challenge for the PL with very good teams and suing their systems. I'd also say that, whether you like it or not, Mou has one of the most distinct styles of play so you can't say there's no system.
Ask yourself who has been backed the best and you have the best team - Pep has all the power at City and gets what he wants. Struggled first season to keep pace with an already excellent team so had unlimited funds to buy an entire new back 4 + GK. No sweat. Turns out he got exactly the players he wanted and won the league at a jog. Klopp has been well backed with no success so far and has spent more than anyone bar Pep.
Mou was well backed and then suddenly Woodward started penny pinching with Perisic. Turns out Perisic had an excellent WC and now his price is too high again. That set the tone and then Mou's 2 'big' signings Pogba and Lukaku haven't made the impact as hoped. Lukaku has been decent if not amazing IMO but Pogba is just a walking disaster at the moment. I can't see how its Mou's fault that Pogba has a ridiculous ego and that Raiola is a demon agent - Woodward loved up to Mino in the first place. Sanchez is a weird one because we all wanted him but he just seems like he's aged 10 years, again hard to blame Mou for that because it was a swap and also universally wanted by all fans. Maybe more apt to balme him for failing to bring best out of Mkhi although he's also struggling at Ars.
It seems your gripe is more that Mou's system just isn't entertaining, which is fair and a common view. However, it's clear Mourinho hasn't been backed this window and wasn't fully backed last window (Perisic) which is my point.
SAF's approach was the most effective and, thus, the best. We weren't very good that season though. Good players but a with a makeshift manager. Still, I don't see how different that is from the so called "Mourinho" strategies, which I have no issues with.
Mourinho plays to his teams strengths. He believes in the results and he will do anything within the laws of the game and fair play to get the 3 points. Understand that you have one of the best football tacticians of all the time trying to bring success to your club and support him instead of those who are only in it for the money.
Yeah like I said occasionally big games he would play more defensive or deploy someone to do a job and there is nothing wrong with that. Also didn’t we have Ronaldo and Tevez playing then later brought on Berba and Nani. We also played Anderson in midfield with Carrick we might have played defensively but it’s not like at the time you were a rubbish team and you had one of the most feared strikers in Europe.
It’s not comparable to week in week out just playing to spoil games which is what we have seen for most of the last 2 seasons and certainly not acceptable against the likes of your Middlesbrough’s and so on.
Maybe in certain big games away from home, sometimes it is necessary to play that way, no question, but a lot of Fergie's teams played fast attacking football and tore other teams to shreds in plenty of games. Obviously there were times when United had to batten down the hatches, ride a storm out and nick a win, but it wasn't SAF's philosophy in general.
A swap deal is not a freebe. Also, there's a reason fans pay money to watch the team while the managers get millions to manage it. They are supposed to be the ones who know what's right for the team.
Mourinho isn't setting records though, we played Porto as reigning CL champions! Undefeated in a campaign and a half. Our defeat in the final would be our first in 2 years.
Win the league or CL and the vast majority will not care how its won, even though I don't even think our football is that bad.
It's not free but I bet if you analyze the 'cost' it's very low compared to splashing £50m+ on an equivalent player.
Obviously I agree re manager's should know better than fans and generally they do but it's not like Sanchez was coming off an injury (Falcao), had to adjust to life in the PL (Di Maria), was an unknown prospect (Depay) - he's about as nailed on a success story as you could hope for. To me, it looks like his fitness was just well below par and he's been fighting to catch up since he joined. The guy needs a few goals soon and some confidence otherwise he'll tank here and be moved on soon on those wages.
Of course it is lower, simply because the player we traded him in for wasn't worth £50m at the time. But we still gave something for him, and a nice contract as well.
Seriously, I wonder if there's a serious bout of amnesia going around. Does no one remember the pages and pages of people complaining about our zombie attacking football under the later part of Fergie?
Yes, when we had two of the best wingers in the world in Giggs and Kanchelskis we used to tear down the wings. And when we had Ronaldo Rooney and Tevez / Saha. But we were also set up for the counter, just as Mourinho likes to do - see Madrid. We are pragmatic against the big sides, but more attacking against the smaller ones. Just like under Fergie. Here's a random article about Fergie adopting counter-attacking football for the big games. Like it or not, Jose and Fergie are cut from a similar cloth. Maybe that's why they had so much respect for one another?
https://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2...4-1-1-is-becoming-manchester-uniteds-big-game
And here's an old post from Noodlehair, Aug 2012 - Look it all turned wrong after the Liverpool game - remind you of anyone?
Is it just me, or is anyone else not really a big fan of this new, ultra depressing method of football we seem to have invented since around the time of the Liverpool game at OT last season, and have worryingly carried into the pre-season with us?
Basically, all of our players stand perfectly still, except for the one who actually has the ball (and Danny Welbeck). Then the one with the ball just passes it sideways to the person next to him, who maybe moves a little bit, and then passes it sideways to the person next to him again, really slowly.
This then carries on for a bit until Scholes picks it up and spanks a diagonal pass to the person standing perfectly still on the wing, despite the fact they're marked, due to being stood completely still the whole time...then they either put an unthreatening ball into the box or just pass it back to the person inside them again.
At no point is this done at any kind of threatening pace or involving any form of off the ball movement at all.
What's the thinking behind it? Do we think it makes us look like Spain? Only, Spain constantly have three or four people moving and running off and around the ball. We just have Danny Welbeck or Kagawa, trying to create space for themselves, by themselves.
Last edited:
You're mixing pre-retirement Fergie with his managerial prime. Absolutely we played zombie football in his final seasons and even parked the bus once we went a goal up in that final season but that wasn't how we played throughout his tenure. The real revisionism is acting like every fan and rival fan who remembers us playing attacking entertaining football is carrying false memories. I still watch our games from 10 years ago and it's different from how we play atm
Yeah, agree. but I still maintain that the reason we were able to play such attacking football was because we had a brilliant defence. We were by no means a Newcastle - we'll score one more than you do. We were set up with a strong spine through the team and some of the best defenders in the division. Bruce, Pallister, Stam, Ferdinand, Vidic, Irwin, Parker, Neville, Evra. Allied to strong midfielders like Robson, Ince, Keane. That allowed us to go all guns blazing because we knew if we lost the ball, we had a castle protecting our goal and a brilliant keeper in Schmeichel, VDS. Now we have a wonder goalie in De Gea and not much else.
So how do people expect us to go all out attack like the good ole days?
Man City play their swashbuckling football after they invested 200m in defence and replaced their newly bought goalkeeper.
Liverpool were more from the Keegan school, but even they have now replaced their goalie and brought in VVD.
Spurs have a great defence too. And Arsenal, well Arsenal are Arsenal.
The frustrating thing is everyone can see that Jose is trying to change. That things are improving. But still, it's as though half the people aren't watching the games and just roll out the same old soundbites, aided by the press doing exactly the same thing.
The crappest thing is us not getting the central defenders Jose wanted. Then maybe we could beat him more fairly if we underachieved. As of now the jury's out for me. I dont see anyone better and his hands have been tied. But still I see progress.
This. The last couple of years were more akin to Mourinho style football, but look further back beyond that and there were numerous teams that just destroyed the opposition in footballing terms.
The point about it being a lot more of a grinding out results style in his latter years, I do recall Ferdinand saying something about most of his time at United it was mostly about out-playing the other teams but in the last few it was all about "just getting over the line".
FWIW, I'm not in the Mourinho out camp, I do like him but I'm not sure where United are going under him. In voting terms I would be undecided or give him some more time, end of the season anyway. If he produces a hard to beat and robust team that can hurt the opposition with counter attacking football then that will do just fine.
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't understand what your point is? We gave Mkhi for him and a massive contract.
I am talking about managers being backed in the transfer window, not debating the cost of Sanchez signing.
Could not have said it better myself
You originally wrote, and I quote 'again hard to blame Mou for that because it was a swap and also universally wanted by all fans'.
My point is that the fact it was a swap deal rather than a straight-cash signing doesn't change anything. It still cost money.
- Status