The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked

[hn4manunited]

Hi. Wolves supporter here. Thought I'd weigh in with a view from the outside.

City are the current benchmark and if you analyse what's happened since Fergie left, it's no surprise that you are not competing with them.

It looks to me that all your current problems stem back to the 3 seasons post-Fergie and pre-Mourinho.

You spent around £390m in those 3 seasons under Moyes and Van Gaal on Fellaini, Mata, Herrera, Shaw, Rojo, Di Maria, Blind, Depay, Darmian, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger and Martial (amongst others).

When Mourinho came in, he wasn't left with one player from those signings who would get into City's starting XI.

Over the same period, City spent less (around £295m), but recruited players like Fernandinho, De Bruyne, Sterling and Otamendi.

So despite spending more, Mourinho was inheriting a first XI and squad already inferior to City's.

Under Mourinho, in the 16/17 season, 17/18 season and so far this season, you have spent around £400m. More than you spent in the 3 seasons under Moyes and Van Gaal, but the way transfer fees have gone since 16/17 this is to be expected. If you compare the spending and factor in the inflation factors over that period, he's actually spent less than they did.

The signings under Mourinho have improved the overall quality of the first XI and squad. Pogba, Sanchez, Lukaku and Matic would all push to get in City's team when playing at their best. Bailley might too if he wasn't injured all the time.

But over the same period, City have spent £490m, buying in players like Gundogan, Sane, Stones, Jesus, Bernardo Silva, Ederson, Walker, Laporte and Mendy.

You were already behind City when Mourinho joined and since then, City have spent more money and spent it better. With Guardiola's proven ability to improve players, they are now much further ahead of you than they were when Mourinho took over.

For all his antics and rants, Mourinho is a realist and actually quite an intelligent bloke. He will know all of this already and would have identified that to close the gap on City, you needed 5 top players, with centre back being the biggest priority. So at the start of pre-season, he gives his list to Woodward in the hope of getting them through the door, but he ends up with Dalot and Fred. Meanwhile City spend £60m on a proven Premier League performer and former winner, widening the gap further.

Bottom line is the recruitment since Fergie left has been dog-**** and if you want to catch City, you need to either spend more than anyone has ever spent in PL history, or try a different, value-based approach like Leicester did and Spurs are doing.

At the moment you are doing neither. If I were Mourinho, I'd be ****ed off too.

That doesn't excuse his behaviour, but looking in from the outside I don't know what Woodward is trying to achieve? Why give Mourinho a new long-term contract if he wasn't going to back him?

Jose is angry because he wants to win and doesn't feel that the club (and Woodward) have the same ambitions. For the manager of the richest club in the world, that must be frustrating. There's no denying that Harry Maguire and Toby Alderwiereld at CB makes your team infinitely better.

Top 4 is the best you can hope for with this collection of players. No manager in the world could win the league with your current squad so I don't see what good sacking Jose will do? Without better players, what's the point?

Wonderful post. I applaud you for being able to so effectively lay out such a no-nonsense post!

I have been away from redcafe for quite a number of months due to the negativity around here but swung back in here to get a sense of how bad this place has gotten since mid-to-late last season. I felt that I have to support a couple of these positive threads to show my support for our beloved club.

I'm with most folks in this thread. I back Jose all the way until he's not our manager. He's a proven winner. Winners with his record don't get there with luck. It's the drive and ability that gets them the success. These individuals find ways to succeed. All these talks of him being dinosaur and past-it are a tad bit unfounded. We know that the way Pep and Klopp teams play is not a new thing and that way of playing isn't just created in the recent few years. Jose has played against those styles and have had successes to show for it. Jose's teams don't have one way of play. He is a pragmatic manager. He adapts to play the way that give them the best chance of success taking into consideration current set of talents available to him.

I feel that many on here fail to see the significant amount of pressure that the negative media bias on both Jose and in general United puts on our overall performance. From manager all the way to players. What they don't need are fans/supporters to pile on. Kudos to all our fans/supporters who sang Jose's name during and at the end of the game.

When we appointed Jose, my personal view of it was always a rebuilding project with some silverware and back into CL in the first few years. To get back to title contenders, there are steps to the process. Unless we spend like City, we just weren't going to get through the rebuilding quickly. To compete with them, theoretically we need to spend even more than them in a shorter period of time. There were players who need to be moved on while buying players to back the current players who are on a high wage. We weren't ever going to go out and get all high wage high dollar players all at one swoop. Seeing how it's 3-4 players per window. It's proof that it was a step by step rebuilding project. Jose and the hierarchy may be on the same page but the pressure from external makes it difficult to do it step by step.

The undermining Ed has done with the press briefing whether intentional or unintentional just adds to more things the media can write and add more pressure to the team.

All the talks of Jose should be doing better with this squad or we have a good enough squad to compete for the title, is definitely not reflected on a weekly basis when the line up comes out in the match thread. We simply don't have the quality that we need to create the balance to compete at the highest level. One other thing people don't take into account is the fitness levels of our players. They have all in the last couple seasons been in and out of suspension and injury recovery. For instance, Matic is just now getting back from that procedure and a few others. Many on here treat these players like they are in a console game ala fifa18, etc. IMO, we have way overachieved due to Jose adapting the playing style to what players we had at different points of the last couple seasons to get us the best outcomes.

The other thing that I'd like to bring up is that we tie signings to Jose but the players we have signed may not have been the first choice on his list. Or the signings may not have been for a starting role. The signings could have been second or third string quality or young players still needing development to bolster the squad while he continues to work with the highly paid players he inherited.

There are so many scenarios behind the scenes that we assume we know and believe the media but we really don't. I would be interested to see how other teams in the top 6 perform if they get the same level of negative scrutiny and pressure from the media and fans/supporters.

 

[Scooby131313]

There is no point in being scared of the unknown. What we do know is we're not good enough with Jose.

For all this talk of Klopp needing to spend, he challenged for a big title by getting to the CL final before he spent money on Fabinho, Allison, and before Keita was brought in. The excuses are tiring.

So we fire Jose and hire a manager proving the players were right or Woodward. No I'm sorry. I will never agree with such nonsense. You say we are not good enough with Jose. Define good? What do you look for in a manager? Klopp style of football and winning nothing to date. Will you except that? Or winning trophies and finishing second only to a team that shattered the points record.

Fans not only need to realise that Fergie played defensive when he needed to but also went through some terrible patches which we supported because it was Fergie. We had Moyes. LVG now one of the best managers. Fire Jose and you can start the next manager out thread 2 years from now for another reason.

 

[Scooby131313]

Sure, it's all the media and other clubs, it's never Jose's fault. If only you were heading for a reality check and realized this club is still asking the same questions it's been asking since before he took over three years ago. The other two managers you've mentioned have shown a progress that Mourinho hasn't been capable of showing since before he even took over this job.

Progress... don't make me laugh. You want me to show you points? Win percentage? After Jose joined. So you think winning trophies,Finishing in the highest position after Fergie left only to a team that had a record number of points is not progress.... wow. I see why i dony like reading chat groups.

 

[freeurmind]

I have to say when he was appointed, I was very skeptical of him, thought his brand of football wouldn't fit with the club etc. But the constant, incessant, whinging and negativity from so many people despite him delivering 2 trophies and the first second place finish since SAF retired has put me firmly in his corner. Also whatever his faults, you can tell this guy is desperate to win. People criticize him for wanting another defender having bought Bailly and Lindelof but we've seen SAF over the years buy players, realise they weren't good enough and then replace them with someone else. The fact that we're probably the most profitable club in the world and the higher ups allegedly balked at paying a high price for a defender tells me that winning is not a priority for them. I seriously doubt there is a manager out there who could do better with this squad, so I hope he stays and rights the ship.

 

[Sayros]

Progress... don't make me laugh. You want me to show you points? Win percentage? After Jose joined. So you think winning trophies,Finishing in the highest position after Fergie left only to a team that had a record number of points is not progress.... wow. I see why i dony like reading chat groups.

Points are meaningless when you don't win any trophies at the end of it. I'd rather see the team gelling, improving, having an identity and showing some modicum of consistency over getting to second with feck all to show for it, because at least then I'd feel it's only a matter of time before some trophies start coming in, as they have for Manchester City and as I feel they just might for Liverpool as well.

 

[Marcelinho87]

If the board are to keep him, then they need to back him 100%

No forcing transfers on him, no denying him the chance to sign who HE wants.

 

[Random Task]

Progress... don't make me laugh. You want me to show you points? Win percentage? After Jose joined. So you think winning trophies,Finishing in the highest position after Fergie left only to a team that had a record number of points is not progress.... wow. I see why i dony like reading chat groups.

I don't think anyone is disputing the progression the club has made under Jose, the question is whether he can take us forward from this point on. Recent evidence suggests not.

 

[Bastian]

of some of the issues he has to deal with:
- Pogba flirting with the idea of leaving
-Alexis playing below expectations
-Rashford slowing down his progression(or at least was my impression)
- two defenders signed last year that maybe are not so good as expected
-Martial not showing all his potential
Do you think he's in going to improve and solve some of those issues in the short term?which?
Don't you think that a new coach (whoever he is) could improve those issues? I think you base your analysis too much on the last game.
Besides how much money did he spend in two years? I do not know if all the signings were his first options but I would bet that he was involved.
On what you said about Lukaku. I think he plays with a lot of people behind the ball and has provoked himself that need.
On the levels of professionalism, you mean technical level of the staff of the club or the attitude of the players?

I think all of the issues you mention can improve in the short-term. All of them probably won't, but IMV the hierarchical issues at the club are the biggest concern. A new manager would not address that in the slightest. I'm definitely not basing my reasons for backing Jose on one game, whatever gave you that impression.

Pogba is a case unto himself. For his own sake he needs to grow up, quickly. What's at play there is the player's own mentality. Martial seems also to have a poor mentality, but there Jose is more at fault which ties in with Sanchez arriving, who like you say, has been below par. Too early to judge this season. I expect him to have much better performances.

The two defenders you mention that aren't as good as expected, I'd say weren't maybe bought with the expectation that they'd slot right in and be first XI players (check out the latest Transfer Window podcast, Castles is reminding us that Smalling, Jones, Bailly and Lindelof were all bought as promising young defenders) we've not got any defenders on our books who were bought as the real deal, which is what Jose wanted this season.

We can pick out various negatives but the accumulation of them don't outweigh the positives of Jose's managerial reign for me, and not all of them are down to the manager. I don't think getting in a new manager would do anything positive for the stability of the club. I think we need to buy into the development of the last 2 years. If the club backs Jose beyond January I would certainly expect 1 or 2 signings that he specifically wants.

You've had Zizou yourself, do you think like quite a few people think that he'd walk in here and all the players would be happy and in awe and churn out top performances that would result in some serious title challenge? Is he that much of a miracle worker in your view?

 

[Bastian]

I don't think anyone is disputing the progression the club has made under Jose, the question is whether he can take us forward from this point on. Recent evidence suggests not.

And the 2 years evidence suggests he can. But yes, we should base things on 3 games right?

Wonderful post. I applaud you for being able to so effectively lay out such a no-nonsense post!

I have been away from redcafe for quite a number of months due to the negativity around here but swung back in here to get a sense of how bad this place has gotten since mid-to-late last season. I felt that I have to support a couple of these positive threads to show my support for our beloved club.

I'm with most folks in this thread. I back Jose all the way until he's not our manager. He's a proven winner. Winners with his record don't get there with luck. It's the drive and ability that gets them the success. These individuals find ways to succeed. All these talks of him being dinosaur and past-it are a tad bit unfounded. We know that the way Pep and Klopp teams play is not a new thing and that way of playing isn't just created in the recent few years. Jose has played against those styles and have had successes to show for it. Jose's teams don't have one way of play. He is a pragmatic manager. He adapts to play the way that give them the best chance of success taking into consideration current set of talents available to him.

I feel that many on here fail to see the significant amount of pressure that the negative media bias on both Jose and in general United puts on our overall performance. From manager all the way to players. What they don't need are fans/supporters to pile on. Kudos to all our fans/supporters who sang Jose's name during and at the end of the game.

When we appointed Jose, my personal view of it was always a rebuilding project with some silverware and back into CL in the first few years. To get back to title contenders, there are steps to the process. Unless we spend like City, we just weren't going to get through the rebuilding quickly. To compete with them, theoretically we need to spend even more than them in a shorter period of time. There were players who need to be moved on while buying players to back the current players who are on a high wage. We weren't ever going to go out and get all high wage high dollar players all at one swoop. Seeing how it's 3-4 players per window. It's proof that it was a step by step rebuilding project. Jose and the hierarchy may be on the same page but the pressure from external makes it difficult to do it step by step.

The undermining Ed has done with the press briefing whether intentional or unintentional just adds to more things the media can write and add more pressure to the team.

All the talks of Jose should be doing better with this squad or we have a good enough squad to compete for the title, is definitely not reflected on a weekly basis when the line up comes out in the match thread. We simply don't have the quality that we need to create the balance to compete at the highest level. One other thing people don't take into account is the fitness levels of our players. They have all in the last couple seasons been in and out of suspension and injury recovery. For instance, Matic is just now getting back from that procedure and a few others. Many on here treat these players like they are in a console game ala fifa18, etc. IMO, we have way overachieved due to Jose adapting the playing style to what players we had at different points of the last couple seasons to get us the best outcomes.

The other thing that I'd like to bring up is that we tie signings to Jose but the players we have signed may not have been the first choice on his list. Or the signings may not have been for a starting role. The signings could have been second or third string quality or young players still needing development to bolster the squad while he continues to work with the highly paid players he inherited.

There are so many scenarios behind the scenes that we assume we know and believe the media but we really don't. I would be interested to see how other teams in the top 6 perform if they get the same level of negative scrutiny and pressure from the media and fans/supporters.

Good post. I agree that it was seen as a rebuilding project, but Jose is desperate to win immediately which is why I was happy we appointed him. I've wondered about the board's ambitions for years, so for me to see a manager used to winning things and who demands nothing less be appointed suggested to me that the board also wanted to win things and not appoint a yes-man.

Your point about fitness is also important and easily ignored. He selected a team he trusts but quite a few players weren't match fit and we tired very quickly against Spurs. We'll improve of course. If this club hasn't gone into some media-inspired panic mode.

 

[prateik]

I don't understand the Jose out brigade.
We won 2 cups in his first season.
Finished 2nd to a city team that broke all records in his second.
We have been better than we have at any stage since Fergie left.

The style of play was never going to be the best in the world. It was something that I imagined would improve once we had a team he was comfortable with.

The transfer window was a bit of a mare. I dont expect us to win the league this season either.. But as long as we show signs of improvement, I'm fine.

 

[Z1L3]

I am 100% sure that if United stuck with Mourihno on the long run, he would bring a truckload of trophies, and the style of play would also improve. The team still needs a lot of improvement.

Yes, he bought some of these players and that's his own fault. But every manager buys players that don't work out in the end.

After all, the results have greatly improved under Mourihno, as have the signings, even though some have been duds.

 

[In Rainbows]

So we fire Jose and hire a manager proving the players were right or Woodward. No I'm sorry. I will never agree with such nonsense. You say we are not good enough with Jose. Define good? What do you look for in a manager? Klopp style of football and winning nothing to date. Will you except that? Or winning trophies and finishing second only to a team that shattered the points record.

Fans not only need to realise that Fergie played defensive when he needed to but also went through some terrible patches which we supported because it was Fergie. We had Moyes. LVG now one of the best managers. Fire Jose and you can start the next manager out thread 2 years from now for another reason.

What do I define as good? I don't know, perhaps what we originally hired Mourinho for and what Mourinho was originally known for. Mourinho was always known for short term success. Fine, I'm not even asking for that. I'm asking for a title challenge past December. Now I'm sorry, but he didn't even clear that small hurdle.

For all this talk of Klopp not accomplishing anything with Liverpool, he actually got them to challenge for a big title. Yes, that was the CL final. To top it off, they actually play entertaining football. That's not enough for you? Fine, let's go to the bare minimum. Klopp got his players to actually resemble a team with chemistry. Shocking how Mourinho can't do that.

Amazing how I've lowered the bar so much for Mourinho and the basics he can't get right after 2 seasons and 400mil spent. 2nd place? Spurs got 2nd place on 86 points just the season before and without the amount of money spent Jose did. What does 2nd really get you? Is 2nd even an accurate representation of where United are? I doubt it because the Spurs just thrashed us 3-0 at home after spending 0 this summer.

Why do you assume the next manager we bring in will fail? Hell, he might fail, but we don't know that yet. No idea why some of you are so scared of sacking managers when the biggest clubs do it more than we do. The biggest clubs don't always go for the guy with the biggest cv. Just look at Bayern.

 

[Canagel]

We have a very split fanbase. This is fact. If everything was all good then fans would be on the same page like at other clubs. This is enough proof the manager is a problem.

 

[Name Changed]

If we think we can do better then Jose. We are heading for a big reality check.
Jose is a brilliant manager but any manager needs resources. Klopp insisted he would never spend big... enough said. Pep changed his mind on keepers and defenders as if he was shopping for pants at 50mil a time.

The media.. other clubs... other fans are trying to break us. They know what Jose can really do and hope he doesn't succeed because if he does..... We will be rock solid with flare and a master tactician for a manager.

José has had plenty of resources. He has largely just wasted what he was given.

José was a great manager. He isn't anymore. He hasn't been in a while. The game has changed and has passed him by.

We will never challenge under him. Anyone saying otherwise is kidding themselves.

It's as plain as day.

 

[SSSSnake]

We actually saw an emotional Jose last week. He spoke from the heart and I love that. Wish we could see more of this instead of the miserable version we often see.

I have a feeling this world vs us mentality he’s installed will see a few surprises. I believe we’ll go on a long run from now to Christmas. Let’s not give up. Back the manager.

 

[Dumbat12]

For all this talk of Klopp not accomplishing anything with Liverpool, he actually got them to challenge for a big title. Yes, that was the CL final.

Yeah... like we challenged for the PL. Getting smacked 3-1 is not really a "challenge". It's what the Mourinho out brigade uses as an argument when they say we finished second with 81 points and we did not challenge. So why is Klopp different? He barely stumbled onto the final and in typical Klopp fashion, he lost it. Not exactly impressive.

 

[X0X Tan]

Hi. Wolves supporter here. Thought I'd weigh in with a view from the outside.

City are the current benchmark and if you analyse what's happened since Fergie left, it's no surprise that you are not competing with them.

It looks to me that all your current problems stem back to the 3 seasons post-Fergie and pre-Mourinho.

You spent around £390m in those 3 seasons under Moyes and Van Gaal on Fellaini, Mata, Herrera, Shaw, Rojo, Di Maria, Blind, Depay, Darmian, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger and Martial (amongst others).

When Mourinho came in, he wasn't left with one player from those signings who would get into City's starting XI.

Over the same period, City spent less (around £295m), but recruited players like Fernandinho, De Bruyne, Sterling and Otamendi.

So despite spending more, Mourinho was inheriting a first XI and squad already inferior to City's.

Under Mourinho, in the 16/17 season, 17/18 season and so far this season, you have spent around £400m. More than you spent in the 3 seasons under Moyes and Van Gaal, but the way transfer fees have gone since 16/17 this is to be expected. If you compare the spending and factor in the inflation factors over that period, he's actually spent less than they did.

The signings under Mourinho have improved the overall quality of the first XI and squad. Pogba, Sanchez, Lukaku and Matic would all push to get in City's team when playing at their best. Bailley might too if he wasn't injured all the time.

But over the same period, City have spent £490m, buying in players like Gundogan, Sane, Stones, Jesus, Bernardo Silva, Ederson, Walker, Laporte and Mendy.

You were already behind City when Mourinho joined and since then, City have spent more money and spent it better. With Guardiola's proven ability to improve players, they are now much further ahead of you than they were when Mourinho took over.

For all his antics and rants, Mourinho is a realist and actually quite an intelligent bloke. He will know all of this already and would have identified that to close the gap on City, you needed 5 top players, with centre back being the biggest priority. So at the start of pre-season, he gives his list to Woodward in the hope of getting them through the door, but he ends up with Dalot and Fred. Meanwhile City spend £60m on a proven Premier League performer and former winner, widening the gap further.

Bottom line is the recruitment since Fergie left has been dog-**** and if you want to catch City, you need to either spend more than anyone has ever spent in PL history, or try a different, value-based approach like Leicester did and Spurs are doing.

At the moment you are doing neither. If I were Mourinho, I'd be ****ed off too.

That doesn't excuse his behaviour, but looking in from the outside I don't know what Woodward is trying to achieve? Why give Mourinho a new long-term contract if he wasn't going to back him?

Jose is angry because he wants to win and doesn't feel that the club (and Woodward) have the same ambitions. For the manager of the richest club in the world, that must be frustrating. There's no denying that Harry Maguire and Toby Alderwiereld at CB makes your team infinitely better.

Top 4 is the best you can hope for with this collection of players. No manager in the world could win the league with your current squad so I don't see what good sacking Jose will do? Without better players, what's the point?

It wasn't true, if we talk about net spending (I believe net spending tell better story, like Chelsea sold Morata at 80m but they did sell Costa at 57m) over last 5 season ( inclusive this summer)

Net spending over 5 seasons

Man City 586m
Man Utd 501m
Liverpool 220m
Arsenal 256m
Chelsea 149m
Spurs 33m

So the different between two clubs are 85m over past 5 seasons, Spurs are doing a good job by the way.

It is not about how much you spend, it is about how good you spend and get your players to become their best. Kane, Ali, Erikson, Salah, Firmino, Mane all play better football under the coach they can trusted.

Which United players play better than when he was at his previous club? De gea, one and only.

 

[In Rainbows]

Yeah... like we challenged for the PL. Getting smacked 3-1 is not really a "challenge". It's what the Mourinho out brigade uses as an argument when they say we finished second with 81 points and we did not challenge. So why is Klopp different? He barely stumbled onto the final and in typical Klopp fashion, he lost it. Not exactly impressive.

Getting to the final is not challenging for the title? What does it mean to challenge other than someone who wins? Funny how logic goes out the window when discussing our rivals.

If you honestly can't tell the difference between a 2nd place finish that was out of the title race by the end of December and being in the CL final, I give up. Seriously, you guys act like our 2nd place finish last year was the equivalent of 2010 or 2012 under Fergie.

Did we not challenge for the CL title in 2011 btw? Or do you Mourinho in guys want to discredit Fergie once again to prop up Mourinho?

 

[TsuWave]

how did jose cultivate such faith from United fans? its kind of mad, i don't even think chelsea fans believe in him like this and he's a chelsea legend

the affinity and trust some of our fans have in him and his abilities is crazy considering he was last sacked for having his team in 16th and his time here has been underwhelming on many fronts.

"b-b-but we finished 2nd, 19 points off the champions, and played a decent first half against Spurs!!"
"24 years ago we stood by Fergie and went on to dominate"
"get him Aldereweild and Perisic and we'll be solid and play free flowing attacking football"
"its the damned Glazers!!"
"he only wanted Matic and Ibra all the other ones were marketing buys from Woodward"

mad

 

[Janson]

Must be a very small handful and not a representation of most who have formed their opinion over time.

Calling people agenda driven won’t win you arguments. It’s just petty and makes it look like you’re trying to validate your opinion over the people you disagree with. In this instance, the majority certainly aren’t agenda driven.

I didn't call you agenda driven if that's what you thought. I was just agreeing with someone saying that there are people on here who were against him from the start, have been waiting for him to fail and clearly are biased.

Here is a great example for you:

@Art Vandelay

No mate - I don't just have an agenda; I absolutely hate every God damn inch of Jose Mourinho - if I could get a tattoo of my hatred of him I would have it on my forehead. I hate his ambition to put short term success over anything else & I hate the way he manipulates the media to his own advantages - it's great when things are all rosey but he spoon turns the club in to a damn media circus.

Great for a club like Chelsea who sit under shadows for ages - can't stand it here.

I've said it before if you scroll up how I believe Martial's role or at least - the way to get the best out of him is play him off the striker the way Ali or more recently Lucas plays for spurs. We have to utilize his ability to drop deep and be involved in play before initiating certain attacks by taking people on than complain about him being crazy because he hadn't realised the ball was damn coming over him and over the fullback after it flicked off Lukaku's for head.

Shaw is doing good because he is having a a pre season & having game time now. You require that for a chance but you also need to make sure he is playing in the right position & also that a player like Sanchez doesn't come in when you are in top form you have been for ages just to damn rot up the place of pure favouritism. Stinks.

Anyway I can't be bother to talk about Jose - just don't undermine my hatred for Jose. It's the biggest on this forum & i have been waiting - analysing his every mistake from day one. 81 on his second season - a traditional title winning team then move on to the losing of the dressing room.

Football is really not that complicated.

 

[Blackice64]

Burnley must be licking their chops at the prospect of ending Mourinho's tenure in England.

Burnley and every other club in the land must know the blueprint to beating Manchester United. Whether that's getting a midfielder to press Pogba in midfield, attacking one of our make-shift fullbacks, putting a man next to De Gea on corners or attacking us.

The press know exactly how to goad Mourinho into a reaction to suit their headlines/stories to make money, know how to wind him up, what questions to ask in press conferences, after games etc. But he wants the spotlight so can't simply do what Fergie did and send the assistant the very diplomatic Michael Carrick.. no no no he wants to use the media to get his message across but they ain't playing ball this time like they did in his first Chelsea stint when he was brand new and breath of fresh air hence the meltdowns and tantrums. He is enemy numero uno and his massive ego can't handle Pep being the Golden Boy this time.

The end is nigh. It's just playing it out now - we all know it.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

So if Jose goes.... who do we get? I actually believe he still has the players on his side. The performance against Spurs is a sign of that. The spirit was there. I’d rather we ride the storm. I think he has a chance to get it right.

 

[Kag]

There's not a single person here (well, a deluded handful maybe) who genuinely believes Mourinho is turning this around. Top four is already a bogey and the players are completely lost.

Instead, you've just got many people who are (wrongly, in my opinion) pissed off at the board, Woodward, the Glazers and, more hilariously, the media. Blaming all of these people.

Which is fine, really. It's reasonable, to an extent, to be angry at them. You can even blame them. But don't pretend for a minute you think Mourinho is going to be successful here. He's completely and utterly finished and it's clear as day. We'll sack him sooner or later - well, later, because we only sack managers when it's too late to rectify the damage that's been done.

Mourinho In. Why? Because you think Woodward is a dickhead and don't like Martial and Lukaku? This is the sort of idiocy were confronted with, because I haven't read a single argument that actually supports that conviction.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

He really needs to wake the feck up tactically. We don’t have a settled side and there’s no stability. No progressive football. He needs to bin Fellaini. Willing to back him still.

 

[Slevs]

Needs to preserve with Bailly and Lindeloff, even if they cost us games. Smalling and Jones will get us nowehere.

 

[VP89]

"b-b-but we finished 2nd, 19 points off the champions, and played a decent first half against Spurs!!"

That 2nd point is to posters like you that we've made definitive progress under Jose.

"24 years ago we stood by Fergie and went on to dominate"

Just a testiment to show how rubbish and spoilt some sections of our fans have gotten I guess.

"get him Aldereweild and Perisic and we'll be solid and play free flowing attacking football"

That's not what we are implying. He has his brand of football that we all know. He needs a proper defence which he hasn't been able to spend enough money on. What other clubs buy on one quality defenders, he had to spread across two young defenders and that's about it.

"its the damned Glazers!!"

They've been a problem with large sections of the fanbase long before Mourinho.

"he only wanted Matic and Ibra all the other ones were marketing buys from Woodward"

Hardly anyone has said this.

Next time try adding value to a thread like this, rather than posting arbitrary made up garbage.

 

[#07]

There's not a single person here (well, a deluded handful maybe) who genuinely believes Mourinho is turning this around. Top four is already a bogey and the players are completely lost.

Instead, you've just got many people who are (wrongly, in my opinion) pissed off at the board, Woodward, the Glazers and, more hilariously, the media. Blaming all of these people.

Which is fine, really. It's reasonable, to an extent, to be angry at them. You can even blame them. But don't pretend for a minute you think Mourinho is going to be successful here. He's completely and utterly finished and it's clear as day. We'll sack him sooner or later - well, later, because we only sack managers when it's too late to rectify the damage that's been done.

Mourinho In. Why? Because you think Woodward is a dickhead and don't like Martial and Lukaku? This is the sort of idiocy were confronted with, because I haven't read a single argument that actually supports that conviction.

What evidence is there that the players are lost? Against Spurs we saw a strong reaction to the Brighton performance. Had they come out and been as bad as they were on the South coast I'd agree with you. However, that first half showed whatever he's telling them they're still trying to do. Had Lukaku brought his shooting boots on Monday night we'd have taken the lead, Harry Kane and Pochettino admitted that Spurs were lucky to be level at half time.

There's nothing to suggest that United can't play similarly against Burnley and get a result. If we do that and go on a little run why is being competitive such a far fetched idea? We lost two of our first six games in 2012-13 too. I'm not saying it will happen but I don't see the evidence that the players have thrown in the towel. Its been much publicised that certain players don't like Mourinho but there's nothing to indicate the squad as a whole dislikes him. Shaw, who has probably had it hardest from Jose, has been our player of the month so far and has spoken well of Mourinho in every interview he's given lately.

Ask me and this idea, which appears to be increasingly popular on the CAF, that backing the manager is because of predjudice or dislike of other people or players is a little OTT.

 

[Kag]

We should have sacked him at the end of last season, which I argued then.

The sad truth is that we (or those that pulled their heads from their arses) could see where this was heading from about half way into his first season, even in spite of the cups we just about won.

The biggest mistake Woodward made this summer was not pulling the trigger completely. We'll wait until it's too late again, too.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

That 2nd point is to posters like you that we've made definitive progress under Jose.



Just a testiment to show how rubbish and spoilt some sections of our fans have gotten I guess.




That's not what we are implying. He has his brand of football that we all know. He needs a proper defence which he hasn't been able to spend enough money on. What other clubs buy on one quality player, he had to spread across two young talents and that's about it.



They've been a problem with large sections of the fanbase long before Mourinho.




Hardly anyone has said this.

Next time try adding value to a thread like this, rather than posting arbitrary made up garbage.

Sorry but as a card holding member of the out crowd with decoder ring and all, those things get used a lot more than you would think VP89 also the use of the “we finished 2nd” shows a clear lack of understanding of where people are coming from when they say lack of progress.

The new spin that these aren’t Jose signings has been intresting.

 

[TsuWave]

That 2nd point is to posters like you that we've made definitive progress under Jose.

Just a testiment to show how rubbish and spoilt some sections of our fans have gotten I guess.

That's not what we are implying. He has his brand of football that we all know. He needs a proper defence which he hasn't been able to spend enough money on. What other clubs buy on one quality player, he had to spread across two young talents and that's about it.

They've been a problem with large sections of the fanbase long before Mourinho.

Hardly anyone has said this.

Next time try adding value to a thread like this, rather than posting arbitrary made up garbage.

made up? hardly. evidenced by your own retorts to said quotes. everything i posted here is stuff i came across, paraphrased, and admittedly, it may not all be exclusive to redcafe, the overall sentiment is still present here though, and its no less befuddling to me.

your rationalizations for mourinho's failures are of no value to me either, yet here you are. next time you'll still see me questioning the affinity and faith sections of our fans have for him, i mean, when a decent half to a game that ended in a 0-3 home drubbing is being used as the metric for definitive progress, its just, you know, confusing to me. its best you hit that ignore button and save yourself the time.

 

[Kapardin]

Burnley must be licking their chops at the prospect of ending Mourinho's tenure in England.

Burnley and every other club in the land must know the blueprint to beating Manchester United. Whether that's getting a midfielder to press Pogba in midfield, attacking one of our make-shift fullbacks, putting a man next to De Gea on corners or attacking us.

The press know exactly how to goad Mourinho into a reaction to suit their headlines/stories to make money, know how to wind him up, what questions to ask in press conferences, after games etc. But he wants the spotlight so can't simply do what Fergie did and send the assistant the very diplomatic Michael Carrick.. no no no he wants to use the media to get his message across but they ain't playing ball this time like they did in his first Chelsea stint when he was brand new and breath of fresh air hence the meltdowns and tantrums. He is enemy numero uno and his massive ego can't handle Pep being the Golden Boy this time.

The end is nigh. It's just playing it out now - we all know it.

We will beat Burnley. They have an EL play-off game to play against Olympiacos before us and are likely to be tired on the weekend. Our usual lethargic walking pace should be enough for a mechanical 2-0 win.

 

[MartinRed]

I think he's done.I think he also knows it.It's written on his face.

 

[Kag]

What evidence is there that the players are lost? Against Spurs we saw a strong reaction to the Brighton performance. Had they come out and been as bad as they were on the South coast I'd agree with you. However, that first half showed whatever he's telling them they're still trying to do. Had Lukaku brought his shooting boots on Monday night we'd have taken the lead, Harry Kane and Pochettino admitted that Spurs were lucky to be level at half time.

There's nothing to suggest that United can't play similarly against Burnley and get a result. If we do that and go on a little run why is being competitive such a far fetched idea? We lost two of our first six games in 2012-13 too. I'm not saying it will happen but I don't see the evidence that the players have thrown in the towel. Its been much publicised that certain players don't like Mourinho but there's nothing to indicate the squad as a whole dislikes him. Shaw, who has probably had it hardest from Jose, has been our player of the month so far and has spoken well of Mourinho in every interview he's given lately.

Ask me and this idea, which appears to be increasingly popular on the CAF, that backing the manager is because of predjudice or dislike of other people or players is a little OTT.

I look at more than half an hour of one game, although I'll come back to that actually. I'm looking at a squad of players that haven't played decent attacking football in ages, in spite of their tremendous (and now underestimated) talents.

As for the Spurs game in particular, I saw a mish-mash of players playing frantic football that ended up losing convincingly. It reminded me of Moyes. When no matter what we did, or how good or bad any specific moments were, it was all ending in defeat. A general cluelessness that permeates through the team that stems from what the manager is trying (or not trying) to do on the training pitch.

I don't think the players have stopped playing for the manager either. Their attitude has been criticised unfairly already. But they're a million miles away from being a good football team. That's on Mourinho and that's why he'll be sacked.

I honestly think expecting us to turn up at Burnley, playing brilliantly and go on a run is just fool's hope.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I didn't call you agenda driven if that's what you thought. I was just agreeing with someone saying that there are people on here who were against him from the start, have been waiting for him to fail and clearly are biased.

Here is a great example for you:

I know you weren't calling me agenda driven, but I generally find it a very weak argument and it's only really used to try make one point more valid than the other. At the end of the day, these are all opinions, that's all. There was a great post the other day that I complimented in which the poster made a very rational and well balanced post as to why he wanted Mourinho to stay. Even though I don't agree with it all, I appreciated that he didn't resort to the usual 'clueless', 'spoilt', 'agenda driven' rhetoric.

I just find it funny when posters try to belittle people that don't believe that Mourinho can turn this around. I mean, all the signs at the moment are extremely negative and it will take far more than a half hour against Spurs - in a match we lost 3 nil - to convince people otherwise. But as I said, it's all about opinion. If some think he can turn this around and do something meaningful this season that's great, but I personally don't.

Re that post you quoted, as I alluded to, there will be a handful of people that are like that but it's not a representation of the posters who have drawn their conclusions after a sustained period of time. I don't really get the whole 'agenda' angle either: Do you genuinely believe there are droves of people on here that would rather see us up shit creek like we are rather than playing good, expansive football and challenging for silverware? I mean seriously, that's a very small minority, as in one or two at best. I wanted Mourinho and was delighted we got him but it's just not working and I can see that. How people are drawing any positives from the past few months are beyond me, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[VP89]

Sorry but as a card holding member of the out crowd with decoder ring and all those things get used a lot more than you would think VP89 also the use of the “we finished 2nd” shows a clear lack of understanding of where people are coming from when they say lack of progress.

The new spin that these aren’t Jose signings has been intresting.

Last season we progressed as planned.

This season its not going to schedule. But its been well documented what the issues are and it goes beyond Mourinho. The fact still remains he is the best man to get the most of an "us v them" scenario for as long as the team are behind them. The performance against Spurs didn't suggest to me that our side have not given up on him so I won't either.

 

[Wheato]

Our squad isn't good enough. Plain and simple as that. How many players in that squad are Mourinho's players? He wanted Lukaku, Matic and Fred. Yes he took a punt on Lindelof and Bailly, and it was probably a mistake, but they would have been scouted properly and sometimes that happens. The rest of his squad is made up of Fergie flops like Smalling, Jones, Young and Valencia. Moyes misfits like Fellaini, Mata and Herrera. Then LVG came in a signed Martial, Darmian (Depay, Di Maria, Blind) We have bought some really average players since 2013, and changing the manager won't fix that. We need to move these players on, not the manager. He needs to be backed and if that means working with a Director of football, who has a long-term goal of replacing players with quality signings and an influx of talent coming through the academy then that is our future and we just need to suck it up and let things progress. Would Zidane or Simeone make our current back 4 into world beaters? Would they fook. You know why we played park the bus football last season and finished 2nd, because if we go toe to toe with teams, we get spanked 0-3 by Spurs at home.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Last season we progressed as planned.

This season its not going to schedule. But its been well documented what the issues are and it goes beyond Mourinho. The fact still remains he is the best man to get the most of an "us v them" scenario for as long as the team are behind them. The performance against Spurs didn't suggest to me that our side have not given up on him so I won't either.

You seem to be using the points we finished on last season as a sign of progress. For the record, LvG managed 136 points in 2 seasons to Mourinho's 150. Do you really believe that's massive progress? LvG won the FA Cup and Mourinho won the EL and the League Cup. You are also conveniently leaving out the fact that the number of points for top four teams has increased in general over the past 2 seasons.

Things have improved in aspects since LvG left, but using our points total last season isn't really that great of a barometer.

And, the "them v us" mentality is created by Mourinho so yeah, he should be dealing with it.

 

[VP89]

You seem to be using the points we finished on last season as a sign of progress. For the record, LvG managed 136 points in 2 seasons to Mourinho's 150. Do you really believe that's massive progress? LvG won the FA Cup and Mourinho won the EL and the League Cup. You are also conveniently leaving out the fact that the number of points for top four teams has increased in general over the past 2 seasons.

Things have improved in aspects since LvG left, but using our points total last season isn't really that great of a barometer.

And, the "them v us" mentality is created by Mourinho so yeah, he should be dealing with it.

I certainly do believe that there has been definitive progress.

As another poster said, there has been an improvement in the quality of the squad thanks to Jose.

Forget the league place and just look at the fact that LVG had us on 66 points by the end of his second season and Jose Mourinho had us at 81 points.

People often say "you keep using that card to suggest we've made sufficient progress" - well, it's because we fecking have.

LVG was 4 places off Leicester as Champions whereas Jose was second only to a completely different beast in Manchester City. The quality of his competition was far superior as the Premier League landscape changed (Klopp, Conte, Pep all entered the fray). And yet, Jose brought about our highest league position since fergie, highest points tally and also highest goal difference since Ferie too.

Those not enjoying Mourinho can complain of his style of play or his negative demeanor and I won't really have as much of an issue. But don't try and claim we haven't progressed much.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I certainly do believe that there has been definitive progress.

As another poster said, there has been an improvement in the quality of the squad thanks to Jose.

Forget the league place and just look at the fact that LVG had us on 66 points by the end of his second season and Jose Mourinho had us at 81 points.

People often say "you keep using that card to suggest we've made sufficient progress" - well, it's because we fecking have.

LVG was 4 places off Leicester as Champions whereas Jose was second only to a completely different beast in Manchester City. The quality of his competition was far superior as the Premier League landscape changed (Klopp, Conte, Pep all entered the fray). And yet, Jose brought about our highest league position since fergie, highest points tally and also highest goal difference since Ferie too.

Those not enjoying Mourinho can complain of his style of play or his negative demeanor and I won't really have as much of an issue. But don't try and claim we haven't progressed much.

I still think using points totals is a poor barometer. 81 points was enough to win the league the season LvG left, whereas City finished on 100 last season and Chelsea 93 the season before. The season LvG left was a shitshow of a season resulting in Leicester winning the league and 66 points being enough to get top 4. To get top 4 since then you would have needed to better 76 and 75 points. I think the top teams are simply getting more points. He has averaged a huge 7 points total per-season more than LvG over the course of 2 seasons, that's not huge progress.

There's progress as watching us has become infinitely better than it was under LvG and the squad isn't littered with players filling in, in random positions. I just think using our points total from last season is a pretty shite barometer and a very simplistic way of trying to make things look a-lot rosier than they are.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

Robson nails it. People on here who relish the negative media and can't wait to bash Mourinho and for certain players to have a bad game so they can spew bullshit in player performance threads have bought this place down.