Again you look on the stats only and ignore what's going on the pitch.
We have the best GK in the world. That's why we have these stats about goals conceded. As simple as that.
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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Again you look on the stats only and ignore what's going on the pitch.
We have the best GK in the world. That's why we have these stats about goals conceded. As simple as that.
Nope, I see the entire team being royal shite this season.
Why is that the attack and midfield are part of the meltdown but the defence isn't?
Because the defense has been like that for over 7 years now.
But not this comically bad, if Mourinho had left in the summer. We wouldn't be having this conversation.
It looks every teams facing United. From middle table to bottom team like Newcastle, West Ham, Brighton and Valencia are rising in confidence when they are facing United. There can be many reasons to it. Teams like that dont fear United at this moment, like they would if they face City or Liverpool. They sit more back and deny space when they meet those top two attacking team. With United, they know Mourinho and co is more defensive. That is why they attack more when they come to Old Trafford. Or they are knowing that United is club that have trouble right now, all the conflict beetween the manager and Pogba. A unsteady and not a consistent team. So they rise their confidence and believe they can score and get points against United. Again the fear factor is not there. They have more respect for City and Liverpool more. So if nothing gonna to change and if the conflicts is keep going. Then the opponents teams are knowing that the manager and players are not running in the same one direction, its right time to go attack them. Opposite if a club is totally United and no conflict in the club, it will of course affect the players performances in some way. And worse if the opponent are feeling the manager and leaders might has lost the dressroom. Then they know its a club definitive in trouble. Not United.
So the questions are. Has Mourinho lost the dressing room or do every players still want to give 100 % for him, 100 % believe he still the right man and leader to, to slowly lead them to a dominate team to win big trophies, to be the best team. I m not sure about that he has lost the dressing room, but its cleary in public that he is having a conflict with Pogba. And even Pogba disagree with Mourinho about his tactic, still he is professional, still want to get 3 points and a win, still playing for club even how much you dislike the manager.
So back to the no fear factor. You can how West Ham can beat United then go to lost to Brighton 1-0, Newcastle with only 2 points and few goals before United match, were been able to make trouble for United at Old Trafford. Then we can ask ourselves why those middle and bottom teams everywhere are rising in confidence when they face United, include championship team Derby with Lampard?And its definitive not good signs. There are reasons why opponents teams fear you and respect your team too much and dont have confidence enough to attack and open it more a bit. That are mine views about how middle table and bottom teams go into to the match against United. They have more belief that they can score and make more trouble for, opposite top teams like City and Liverpool.
Conclusion and sum up with one sentence. Its not a good sign for a club that aim to be best. Coz most of the time. The bottom teams use to sit back against the best team. The fear factor goes in common with a really dominate team on the pitch. United and fear factor is not in common, at this moment. And to be honest i dont have strong and good feeling that Mourinho can bring the fear factor to United. And how things in the club will be solve. But its clearly the signs that i will share. Its clearly a sign that something are not right at this club as this moment. Because United are one of the biggest club in the world, then the aim and goal will follows by that. It get to be solve in some way. And with the international break, i think the board and club have to evaluate all the factors and reasons that has follow to the situation United are in ath this moment. And dont blame someone,everyone is part of it. Definitive i think a meeting or two would be inside the club. Because the results so far its definitive not good enough. If United keep dropping points really often, here and there. Then top 4 will be really difficult this season.
So the questions are. Has Mourinho lost the dressing room or do every players still want to give 100 % for him, 100 % believe he still the right man and leader to, to slowly lead them to a dominate team to win big trophies, to be the best team. I m not sure about that he has lost the dressing room, but its cleary in public that he is having a conflict with Pogba. And even Pogba disagree with Mourinho about his tactic, still he is professional, still want to get 3 points and a win, still playing for club even how much you dislike the manager.
So back to the no fear factor. You can how West Ham can beat United then go to lost to Brighton 1-0, Newcastle with only 2 points and few goals before United match, were been able to make trouble for United at Old Trafford. Then we can ask ourselves why those middle and bottom teams everywhere are rising in confidence when they face United, include championship team Derby with Lampard?And its definitive not good signs. There are reasons why opponents teams fear you and respect your team too much and dont have confidence enough to attack and open it more a bit. That are mine views about how middle table and bottom teams go into to the match against United. They have more belief that they can score and make more trouble for, opposite top teams like City and Liverpool.
Conclusion and sum up with one sentence. Its not a good sign for a club that aim to be best. Coz most of the time. The bottom teams use to sit back against the best team. The fear factor goes in common with a really dominate team on the pitch. United and fear factor is not in common, at this moment. And to be honest i dont have strong and good feeling that Mourinho can bring the fear factor to United. And how things in the club will be solve. But its clearly the signs that i will share. Its clearly a sign that something are not right at this club as this moment. Because United are one of the biggest club in the world, then the aim and goal will follows by that. It get to be solve in some way. And with the international break, i think the board and club have to evaluate all the factors and reasons that has follow to the situation United are in ath this moment. And dont blame someone,everyone is part of it. Definitive i think a meeting or two would be inside the club. Because the results so far its definitive not good enough. If United keep dropping points really often, here and there. Then top 4 will be really difficult this season.
Jeez.. It is one thing to point out the coincidences from previous jobs, another to genuinely believe in curses as a cause for the problem.
To each their own I guess.
To each their own I guess.
The voting is a joke at this point, people switching their votes on a weekly and game by game basis 
Lose two in the row and we will be closee to 80%, win a game we are by 75%. Win another two and he will be at 70%, lose another 2 and we will be again by 75%. Everybody knows he is done here, only a matter of time when, a few wins here and there wont change that, Moyes managed the same. You are either convinced he is or he isnt, i cant believe people think weekly that he is the right guy or not.
Lose two in the row and we will be closee to 80%, win a game we are by 75%. Win another two and he will be at 70%, lose another 2 and we will be again by 75%. Everybody knows he is done here, only a matter of time when, a few wins here and there wont change that, Moyes managed the same. You are either convinced he is or he isnt, i cant believe people think weekly that he is the right guy or not.Well not sure. Arsenal game last season at Emirates was as comically bad as anything we did this season but we ended up winning 3-1. There're other disastrous defensive games we played under LVG as well, like the 5-3 Leicester one or even the 3-2 WHU game in his last season. That's why he changed from the overall attacking plan he was starting his reign here with to his very dull possession based football, as a sort of defense to decrease the number of shots, it worked but limited us going forward and whenever the opponents get a chance to go at us it was always De Gea saving after comical errors.
I suggest you watch the video I posted, at least half of it.
The problem is our defensive recruitment under LVG and Mourinho were pretty bad, the likes of Rojo, Blind, Lindelof and Bailly all came/come with their own disasters when they play/played. If you add average defenders to your already terrible defense, the result won't change much and the defense will still look shite.
I don't believe in the 'curse' I believe that he his own downfall.
It isn't just a coincidence though, last season Utd were second for most of the season and at this part, even fighting for the title along with City.
I think we might need to hire a female physio just to convince some of you.
For all that happened. 3 or 4 win in a trot and things would look very different. Wouldn't rule us out just yet.
But then what's changed? To go from the 2nd best defensive record in the league, to the 4th worst. Is certainly more than 'De gea stopped pulling worldies'
Chelsea fans did say the same, not sure they did when they sat in 16th.
The next 6 games is Chelsea away, Juve home, Everton home, Bournemonth away , Juve away, City away..
Everton is probably the only game I'd be semi confident in a win.
Regarding our defense and our defense only well yeah it's that cause.
But we have other problems across other areas of the pitch, particularly in the attack.
we could win every game for the rest of season and youd still see people lining up to say "but...". The weekend proved that. There we were, playing utter dog shit in the first half. Came out the second half and actually had that "never say die" united attitude thats been begged for and still it was business as usual. A saturday night, a win in dramatic fashion and "Im not going out or staying in to celebrate, Im going to have a moan on the caf".
Jose cant win, because its now clear that it got nothing to do with the football. They hate the man, and everything else is just spin to justify it.
Chelsea team very obviously downed tools. That 2nd half showed no one is downing tools here. So not a good comparison.
Honestly? I never thought he was here for the long term. But he was brought here to win things, big things. I believe us winning the league soon is critical, to avoid a post-Busby slump that could go on for decades. I believe that with the right support Jose could win us the league. I still believe that. I know I’m in the minority.
Complete and utter bollocks. Stop talking shit. As if we would win every game til the end of the season. We won against Newcastle at home after being 2-0 down. There is a reason we were 2-0 down in the first place. You said yourself we were playing dogshit
Thats the norm. We sometimes come back, but most of the time we drop points. Thats the reality, Jose is simply not good enough, thats why we hate the man.
Few quick points (this thread is painful)
- The Mourinho third season meltdown is a myth. A bad season at Chelsea and 2nd places at Madrid and Chelsea is reasonably good
- funny how people are identifying that our defense is our biggest issue, yet when Jose wants to upgrade the CBs, they blame Jose too. Clearly all our CBs are similar and not leaders (hence why Smalling plays more than his ability should deserve).
- people should maybe listen to the former United players who are all saying that everyone should get behind the manager and the players, while acknowledging both players and manager should take blame
- The Mourinho third season meltdown is a myth. A bad season at Chelsea and 2nd places at Madrid and Chelsea is reasonably good
- funny how people are identifying that our defense is our biggest issue, yet when Jose wants to upgrade the CBs, they blame Jose too. Clearly all our CBs are similar and not leaders (hence why Smalling plays more than his ability should deserve).
- people should maybe listen to the former United players who are all saying that everyone should get behind the manager and the players, while acknowledging both players and manager should take blame
He wasn't 2nd place at Chelsea though he was sacked for ending up 16th.
Not just our defence this season, last season it was certain players that were shite. This season it's a case of whose not been shite? Shaw, Fred?
If it was just our defence you'd be right and Mourinho should of been backed, but our midfield are regularly being dominated, our forwards are tickling opponents defences..
Complete and utter bollocks. Stop talking shit. As if we would win every game til the end of the season. We won against Newcastle at home after being 2-0 down. There is a reason we were 2-0 down in the first place. You said yourself we were playing dogshit
Thats the norm. We sometimes come back, but most of the time we drop points. Thats the reality, Jose is simply not good enough, thats why we hate the man.
It's not bollocks though, that much is obvious. Nobody is debating that for half the game, we were awful, easily as bad as I have ever seen. What some of us are trying to poiny out though, is that a football match is 90 minutes long and with that mind, United did superbly to come back and win.
Given everything that's gone on, all of the nonsense, from the media, the fans, the players, the manager and the club, to show that determination at that stage to come back and win, well that should only ever be seen as a positive.
We were dead and burried, rock bottom had been found but somehow we came back.
So what of it was against Newcastle, that is irrelevant. 2-0 is 2-0 down. So what of wevew had a bad start, it's now a little bit better. A team and manager who apparently hate each other found it within themselves to battle on. What's not to be positive about exactly?
Honestly, I do not get some posters views. They make no sense, some are based on complete nonsense or myths and others are purely a case of "I don't like the man sp nothing else matters". There are people rewrorewr the past 2 seasons, claiming everyone else was rubbish, that he doesn't coach the team (ignoring the fact that his coaching team includes two of the people some have suggested as caretaker replacements...). It's just weird. Some actual want the club to fail.
For some it looks personal. Weird. Very weird.
@WensleyMU A football game lasts 90 minutes, but a football season lasts dozens of games. Should we rejoice and be blinded because after a crappy start to the season we finally got 45 minutes of really good football?
Do that on a regular basis and people will be happy. You can't expect them to think everything is finally rosey because of one half.
Do that on a regular basis and people will be happy. You can't expect them to think everything is finally rosey because of one half.
Yes, he finished 2nd in his third season during his first time at Chelsea. I referenced his bad season at Chelsea, acknowledging that he has had one bad third season in his 5 managerial stints.
Ah, the players were shite? So they are the ones who should take the blame?
Poor choices of players to reference, as Shaw has come good and Jose's impact has caused that. Fred has been here 2 months
Lastly, the 12 games this season are clearly not the same as the past two seasons so it is poor to look at these games without looking at a trend or long term plan. We went from 6th to 2nd, conceded the 2nd least goals in the league last year, won an FA cup, and a (actually meaningful) Europa League.
I just dont think Jose has done enough wrong to deem getting sacked. Moyes was out of his depth and LvG probably deserved to stay on too but his methods were not a fitting with the United way. Jose could also do more in this way, but is making noises to do so.
Funny you mention the length of a season. People should take note of this as it appears some had it down as last 7 or 8 games. Glad you've cleared that one up for us Amir.
Also, it's not about one half, it's about the team showing something we all thought was gone, a bit of fight. You could see it meant a lot to them and also to Mourinho. I agree that we need to see more, to see this fight regularly but I am not so sure it will bring everyone round.
Not just a bit of fight, also a bit of football. But it's meaningless if it only appears once in a while. Do that regularly and people will change their minds. There's no reason not to if United play well and win. But one good half and one win shouldn't change minds.
Moyes and LVG could have the odd good game here and there. Doesn't mean a thing.
Complete and utter bollocks. Stop talking shit. As if we would win every game til the end of the season. We won against Newcastle at home after being 2-0 down. There is a reason we were 2-0 down in the first place. You said yourself we were playing dogshit
Thats the norm. We sometimes come back, but most of the time we drop points. Thats the reality, Jose is simply not good enough, thats why we hate the man.
I didn’t say we would. I was commenting on the attitudes of people here that want Jose gone. So perhaps take your own advice.
good video on the options available should Jose leave mid-season.
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Well no, if 1 or 2 players are shite then it's the players, If the entire team are consistently shite, then it's more than individuals and their quality and an issue with the manager or tactics.
Under Mourinho, it's acceptable to play shite football when you get the results but when you don't get the results, what do you get? Drama & shite football. No progressive plan.
That's it.
Mourinho hasn't came close to playing good football, he isn't going to build a legacy here and I feel he's caused too much drama and toxicity to stand any chance of coming back from this. This Mourinho is nothing like 2004/05 Mourinho, he's a lifeless overly cautious manager nowadays in comparison.
With 3 away games in our next 4 matches including City/ Chelsea, top 4 could be out of reach.
If he can stablise the ship, give us a Cup run and give us a good run in the CL, I'd gladly back him till the end of the season but he shouldn't last longer than that.
I'm still pretty confident this seasons entertainment for our rivals will continue though.
So the team got second place last season and while admittedly were inconsistent in big games (beat all other top 6 teams but Sevilla and FA final were poor) there were players that were good and as expected most players went in and out of form.
I do not buy into the shite football argument. Good football is not always to keep the ball for 60% of the game (LvG) or get the ball into the box all the time (Moyes). For me, its effective and intelligent football. Spurs at home this season we played open attacking football and lost 3nil. Last season we targeted Lovren and Arnold and won 2nil. There should be a compromise between the style that the players want and the style the manager wants and I think that has happened, to a mostly positive extent with Jose.
I think the main thing for Jose is that if he can rely on his defenders, then he can reduce the amount of defending he wants the other players to do. But he (rightly) hasnt been able to do that yet.
I think that if the board were to publicly back Jose, he would be able to have a more long term focus, but they are shooting themselves in the foot. By saying he could be gone at any point, he will definitely focus on short term results, which is exactly what they dont want. There have been signs that he does have a 5+ year plan and the board needs to put faith in the man they hired to do that.
This season, we've fallen apart when we've gone behind, even when we have conceded. We have shown no fight at all. Take Spurs, we weren't playing badly but as soon as they scored, that was it.
So it was great to see. I hope we can now use it to kick start the season. With Chelsea next it doesn't get much tougher but we are better placed because of 45 minutes against Newcastle, than we were at 5:40pm on Saturday evening.
So basically he is now incapable of winning games either way, so glad we gave him that new contract then.
But that's the thing, Chelsea went to 16th after winning the league under Mourinho, they arguably had a better team overall. They then won the league the following season under a different manager. So, after the next run of games which I think we'll be lucky to grab 4 points out of 12.. the season is pretty much over and that's considering Utd have had the easiest run of games out of the top 6.
First season under Mourinho especially up till December, our football was pretty attacking, creating plenty of chances but not converting.
2nd season was a better balance, scoring more goals with less chances but also holding on. Although it became very grindy and horrific to watch In Jan onwards with the odd game here and there.
Third season, it's been a mess. Any progress has gone, in every area of the pitch. Even De Gea has been a bit underwhelming.
My issue with our football is that it's extremely aimless, although this is something that has been a problem since Fergusons last years..
Utd, don't press and are way too quick to go defensive. Can't effectively counter attack despite being a defensive team. Can't attack effectively, pass the ball around side to side until either De Gea hoofs and loses it or someone loses it and the opposing team counter attack.
Not sure how you can say there have been signs of a 5 year plan, when Mourinho has never lasted a full 4 seasons let alone 5.
Mourinho was a short term manager to bring success and while I felt he did a great job season 1 and season 2 had highs and lows, this season there should of been some form of progress. When you see how Chelsea and Arsenal are playing after manager changes and Utd have regressed significantly..
It's ridiculous all the flip flopping going on. Even the Chelsea 2015/16 meltdown season included a few wins with Arsenal being one. It doesn't really matter any more 1 or 2 games. Is he the man to take the club forward or not? Looking at his time so far nobody can confidently say yes.The voting is a joke at this point, people switching their votes on a weekly and game by game basis
Good football or shite football is not subjective. Almost everyone agrees from United fans to rival fans to neutrals to pundits that we aren't good to watch.
And we don't even play the intelligent/effective football you say it is.
Yes we are better placed. Just like we were better placed after the Watford win, only to suffer disappoint performances and results. If a win here and there can still make people optimistic for the future, this can go on forever.
I agree that the third season in his second spell at Chelsea was bad and he deserved to be sacked midseason. No issues there. Not sure that making predictions of how we are going to go for the next month justifies sacking someone now. We might win all our games. We might lose them all. Sacking in advance of that is illogical.
I disagree that the progress is gone. We are 8 plus cup games into the season with key players out of form. Last season we were inconsistent, but were not undeserving of second place in the league. You only have to look at what many former players are saying, in that no one is blameless in all of this, but you can't expect to solve the problems by sacking the manager. The players need to step up, the manager needs to step up and the board needs to step up.
Signs of long term plan = signing fewer players per season, most of which are developing still, as well as signing fewer 'experienced' players (yes he wanted some, but not to the same extent as previous clubs). Giving some developing players chances in the first team. Bringing under 18 players on preseason tour. Bringing in United staff to his set up, rather than bring in his own people. Signed contract extension.
L O L - you say its not subjective but it is someone's opinion that determines if the football is good or not. Slight contradiction. And style of football is certainly subjective and is certainly not either good or shite. It is on a continuum, and while its not possession based tiki taka, its certainly not sunday league.
I also never said we play intelligent / effective football. I said that good football for me (subjective) is intelligent and effective. I don't think we are as intelligent or as effective as we could be, but that doesn't mean we play shite football
Don't think so. You either play good football or you don't and we don't. There's nothing in between.
Good football doesn't have to be tiki taka. We're just asking for the basics sometimes. Quick give and go's, fullbacks making overlaps, sharper passing, 3rd man runs etc. All things that would make us better to watch and we don't do.
We are extremely boring to watch sometimes. I said many times you can't even call it defensive. Just tumescent, slow and very dull. Occasions like the last 20 minutes on Saturday are a rarity. We haven't moved the ball this quickly for about 2 years.
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I totally disagree, there is definitely a scale of quality of football style. There is no clear definition of what good football is and every team does things differently, so something you might say is good, someone else might say is bad. Or just not so good.
eg. overlapping fullbacks might be good for overloading wide areas but it also exposes the flanks to counterattacks. Or lots of short passing might allow you to keep the ball but it might not utilise the pace of players in attack. Or playing a high defensive line might help a press and winning the ball back, but it also means one long pass would bypass the whole team.
I think if we wanted Pochettino he would want to come and we'd pay to get him out of his contract, as for Tuchel yes he is only a few months in, but into a 2 years contract, he'll only have a year left at the end of the season, easy to get him out of if he was interested.
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