Nor do we have the players of those teams that play well and win
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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None of those player are signed as starters to take their squad to the next level which is what united needed.
Fred is a good player and can be argued could be a starter with a better core around him, but he is not the type of quality that united need to move up to the next level - that is the point
Next game is Chelsea away.
Maybe they'll not sack him but I think it's pretty likely he's headed for more heavy pressure. I think Chelsea are going to destroy us.
Maybe they'll not sack him but I think it's pretty likely he's headed for more heavy pressure. I think Chelsea are going to destroy us.
I think it's likely that Chelsea will win comfortably, but we have also missed so many easy chances this season which have impacted the way games have turned out. The sort of chances professional players should be scoring 9 times out of 10. If one falls our way in the first half, and we actually put it away, you never know, we could make a game of it.
How do you know they were not signed as starters? Liverpool paid big money for Keita and Fabinho. Every player listed was a big money signing.
If we score first against Chelsea we'll win. Thats the thing though, us scoring first seems unlikely with Jose in charge.
I am still hoping and praying that Jose will be sacked in the next 2-3 days.
I am still hoping and praying that Jose will be sacked in the next 2-3 days.
I want him replaced just as much as anyone else on this forum but I’m actually glad he didn’t get fired this weekend.
Our team showed some character in coming back to win against Newcastle and whilst there's little reason to believe it was due to some rousing halftime speech from Mourinho, he at least deserves to have a final crack against the likes of Chelsea, Juve and City.
At end of our upcoming murderers row of fixtures, we either have a new manager or we’re back in the title race. Win either way.
Our team showed some character in coming back to win against Newcastle and whilst there's little reason to believe it was due to some rousing halftime speech from Mourinho, he at least deserves to have a final crack against the likes of Chelsea, Juve and City.
At end of our upcoming murderers row of fixtures, we either have a new manager or we’re back in the title race. Win either way.
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cos you can compare them to the current starters and really cant make the argument for it. Not to say those players cant be starters, but none can be said to be significantly better than the current options and would immediately take liverpool to the next level
The costly mistakes by Mignolet last season, particularly in the CL finals, made the Alisson's arrival at his price tag a clear sign of his replacement.
Shaqiri is not as good as any of Salah, Mane or Firmino.
Henderson is the deepest midfielder and captain, so Fabinho is not replacing him anytime soon.
Milner is their best CM so that leaves Wijnaldum vs Keita and that is a debatable upgrade for now. Over time I expect Keita to replace Wijnaldum latest by next season if he continues to develop and adapt to PL football.
If he's still fighting to keep his job... and his players are still fighting to win... it's absurd not to let him try for awhile.
Some here really want Giggs instead? At least Jose has a history of winning and he always displays a sharp wit and intelligence even though he can be offputting at times.
Let Giggs do what Henry and Gerrard are doing and work their way up to a prestige job... not wait for his turn like he's royalty.
Some here really want Giggs instead? At least Jose has a history of winning and he always displays a sharp wit and intelligence even though he can be offputting at times.
Let Giggs do what Henry and Gerrard are doing and work their way up to a prestige job... not wait for his turn like he's royalty.
So according to your argument Liverpool haven't improved their starting team except GK.
All of them except Shaqiri are starting 11 players. They will take time just like how Klopp introduced Robertson, he became regular player in december, well till december he played 2 games in CL and PL. If you use same logic then Fred is not even our starting player as in Jose's tactics Matic and Fellaini are better,.
Chelsea signed Kepa, Jorginho who didn't play in world cup.They signed Kovacic too who barely played. City signed Mahrez who didn't play in world cup.
Still I don't understand what point you are trying to make with world cup mins.
I'm thinking the same but if we lose to Chelsea and Juve at home and drop points against Everton we should pull the trigger. Anything better than that and he'll have until City away I reckon.
I was just reading Jose Mourinho comments about him being the subject of a man hunt. Isn't our society a disgrace. Look to the Man Utd board who think they know more about managing a team than Jose. The arrogance is overwhelming. I remember when Sir Alex went through the same crap in his first 3 seasons and look how that ended up.
Whether you are a Man Utd fan or not what's happening in the club and the media is really just not right, always want someone's head on a stick.
If you are a true Man Utd fan then get 100% behind Jose and he will do an "Alex" and remove the Manchester temporary blue hue back to where it should be
The problem also lies with peacocks like Pogba who don't give their all every game.Read about Alex's early years and see the similarity!! Jose to stay gets my vote!!
Proof where Mourinho starts a youngster in consecutive games please? If he did good in training.. behave yourself. Rafael started the first home game of the season at RB and made it his spot. Dalot has a great debut and now has to wait his chance. Danny Rose got injured Davies came in and made it his sport with no premier league experience. We need to stop making excuses for this guy it’s pathetic and proven rubbish.
Also Fabio had Evra ahead of him who was superb and ever got injured. So Rafael and Fabio cases were different.
Anderson was also 19 when we signed him, playing just 25 games for Porto. He played 38 games in his first season.
I voted stay. And still think he should stay till the end of season at least.
He didnt have much competition tbh
He didnt have much competition tbh
It is simply a question of quality. I am sure there were midfielders poorer than Fred that got minutes and possibly started at the WC, but there is a difference between being a sub behind Modric and Rakitic, and to being a sub who cant get minutes ahead of Renato Augusto who plays in china.We need top end talents to upgrade our squad Fred is simply not currently at the level to do that.
So if that is the big signing for the summer, then we have simply not moved the needle forward and are barely standing pat.
Does Dalot?
What makes you think that we will do better? Things have been extremely poor so far, and I'm not even talking about our football. Jose's comments, behaviour and antics are tiresome and the team clearly does not follow him anymore. We have to axe him now
Looking at their mins for National team is just illogical, especially Brazil who have fixed set of players. For example, Firmino is not their first choice, Jesus who is worse than Firmino and a back up at City is.
Rate Fred based on his club career. Willian, Douglas Costa, Fernandinho were not even in Brazilian squad when they were signed by big clubs.
Fabinho wasn't even in the squad. If Fabinho is not first choice player to improve Liverpool, then so is Fred.
Jorginho wasn't even a regular for Italy and Italy are in their worst period ever.
Rating players based on National team doesn't make sense, as ManUtd fans we should know that more than anyone.
You can look at Rashford in Mourinho's first season for a recent example. Even at his previous clubs, players like Varane and Santon are examples that come to mind. In fact, Mou dropped Pepe in preference for a teenage Varane.
If Dalot has earned it, Mourinho will start him.
You seem to keep missing the point. Even if you rate him based on his club performance, it is still the same verdict - he is simply not a top end player. Doesnt mean he cannot develop into one in a few seasons, but currently he is not.
You would have an argument if you can show how Fred has the quality to take us to the next level. If he doesnt have that quality, then he is not the kind of player to be our main summer signing
So your point is Fred is not top end player because he didn't play any mins in world cup.
Then you mentioned how other teams improved mentioning players like Mahrez, Keita, fabinho, Jorginho who didn't even qualify for world cup or didn' even get selected for the squad.
Then you mention how none of them are first choice players for their respective teams, I'm asking you if they are not first choice then how come Fred is? If they are not first choice players then how did these teams improve their team?
The journalist being banned appears to be a show of support for Mourinho to me. So I hope he gets his act together given he has the board on his side.
ffs not that line again.I was just reading Jose Mourinho comments about him being the subject of a man hunt. Isn't our society a disgrace. Look to the Man Utd board who think they know more about managing a team than Jose. The arrogance is overwhelming. I remember when Sir Alex went through the same crap in his first 3 seasons and look how that ended up.
Whether you are a Man Utd fan or not what's happening in the club and the media is really just not right, always want someone's head on a stick.
If you are a true Man Utd fan then get 100% behind Jose and he will do an "Alex" and remove the Manchester temporary blue hue back to where it should be
Read about Alex's early years and see the similarity!! Jose to stay gets my vote!!
Fred is not a top end player cos he was stuck behind renato augusto. If you disagree, give proof that he is.
That Fred is not a top end addition does not mean his addition does not improve the squad. At the least he adds depth in the CM position. Similarly, Mahrez, Keita, and Fabinho also do improve their squads by adding quality depth. Maybe Keita, might develop into a starter, but i dont see the other two player dethroning the players ahead of them. Jorginho has the added bonus of having played for Sarri at Napoli, and thus is very helpful to Sarri in getting his ideas across and implemented on the pitch. What he lacks in quality, he makes up with familiarity with the coach. This is common practice with new coaches.
So just to reiterate
- We need to be signing top quality players to bring our starting XI to the level required to compete at the top
- Fred is not a top quality player
- Hence signing Fred should not be our biggest signing of the summer.
let me know which of the premises and/or conclusion you disagree with.
So none of the teams have actually improved except Liverpool signing Gk?
Good. Nice to see the club crack down on alternative facts.
No, I personally don't think the Newcastle win will spark any sort of solid form, but since we did manage to pick up the win then I'm content for us to wait until there's an emphatic nail in his coffin rather than get rid of him after a rare come-from-behind victory and have dissenters in the forms of both fans and ex-players continuously complain about how unjust his sacking was.
Let him punch himself out of the club. Lose to Chelsea, lose to Juve then fire him before the Everton match. Or if he scrapes a draw or win from these matches then fire him if we lose against City and Juve in the return leg.
I agree with you but at the same time let him have his stay of execution.
My real worry is that Mourinho has somehow hoodwinked the board and his supporters into thinking that a couple of victories against Bournemouth & Everton and perhaps a draw or two in four matches against City, Chelsea and Juventus is above par and acceptable. It's not, and it never should be.
This is getting tiring - there is a clear difference between improving a squad and improving your starting XI.
- Liverpool improved their starting XI by adding Alisson, but also improved their squad by adding Shaqiri, keita, and Fabinho
- Citeh improved their squad by adding Mahrez, but have not really improved their starting XI.
Chelsea have replaced Courtois with Kepa which is a downgrade, while Jorginho seems an improvement over bakayoko who basically flopped. Thus one can say they have improved the starting XI overall. Kovacic has improved the squad.
Fred and Dalot have improved our squad but have not improved the starting XI. We need to improve our starting XI
Dont think I can make this any clearer
You can't make it clearer as there is no consistency in your points.
You said Fred and Dalot didn't improve the level of squad which saying others did by using world cup example, when none of the players except Alisson played regularly in world cup. None of the players signed in this window are top end players. None of the players signed by PL teams in last 2 years are top end ones. All are below top tier players. That's how it is always with PL.
Did we improve our starting 11? That depends on how Jose use the team. If he believes past it Valencia, who adds nothing in attack is better than Young Dalot then we haven't improved our RB position. If Jose believes having a player like Fellaini adds more to the team than players like Fred when we didnt improve our starting 11.
Dalot if given chances will be our first choice RB this season, he has showed more to his attacking game already.
You have made lot of (wrong) assumptions that every other team didn't need to improve their first 11 and all the players signed were for squad options, while we are the only team who needed to improve first 11 and signed Fred. Liverpool midfield was poor, that's why 100 million was spent on 2 players. Just because they are still adapting to the league doesn't mean their midfield is already better. If Milner, Henderson is doing great job then it's a credit to Klopp.
Just signing players for the sake of it, without any plan won't improve any 11. Team should be more than sum of it's parts, which we are not.
Playing with more defensive players wasn't so much of an issue last season, and the attack still didn't look good. Both individually and as a team. Putting our offensive performances down to Mourinho playing defensively because he has to as the big bad CEO wouldn't get him a centerhalf is really making life easy for him.
As for Fred, if he isn't good enough, who is at fault if not the manager who signed him?
He chose those CB's, they are his players and as he mentioned he signed them after watching them play for a long time. The team is his and we signed players with record fee's, so the whining here about the club not buying new pair of center backs should stop because it is annoying and not logical. Mourinho inherited the best defense in the league at that moment, added two CB's and a RB and got back the new Luke Shaw, but still managed to be bad this season. It's all on him and he should be sacked now before we behind the top 4 race and CL race for good.
Playing devils advocate what if Lindelof was 3rd of 4th choice on a list of CB's Jose gave to the board?
He'll also no doubt look at the situation at City and see Pep buy the likes of Bravo and bin them after a season after seeing they're not good enough.
Lindelof and Bailly may be Jose's signings but they're not good enough (apparently) so while yes them being bad buys are on him are we to condemn him twice not only for making bad signings but then for the bad results when he's forced to play them?
Ok so the use of 'squad' was a mistake on my part - as I wanted to refer to the starting XI. You can always improve the overall squad by adding depth.
Depending on the current starting XI, you can improve the starting Xi without adding a top quality player, if the player added is better than the incumbent. But to be a top team, able to contest for both PL and CL, you should have 3-5 top quality talent at the core of your team.
That 'poor' liverpool midfield got them to the CL final. From an objective point, Liverpool did need to improve their starting XI if they wanted to significantly close the gap to Citeh, which they did not do and thus I dont see them winning the league. If Liverpool do not win the league, it should not be put on Klopp as he does not have the squad to do so against Citeh. But then, they have finished 4th in the last 2 seasons, and doubt will get bent out of shape if they dont win the PL. To win the PL, you will need to best Citeh.
Each team will address their needs as they see fit, and while there is always the possibility of adding a better player to the starting XI, that needs to be weighed against the cost and resources available to do so, and the opportunity cost of improving depth or standing pat. Different team have different levels of ambitions.
On Dalot, there is more to playing RB than simply attacking. Yes it is nice if the RB can get forward but what happens when he leaves the rear exposed cos he pushed forward at the wrong time. You need to consider not only attacking talent but individual defense and coordination with the rest of the defense. If Dalot has shown he is as good as you think he is, he would already be starting. (Ironically, you feel players at other clubs are not starting cos they need to adapt but wont make same argument for a 19yr old kid from Portugal)
We have seen Fred starting games this season and he definitely wasnt lighting it up imo. Thus you cannot say he want given the chance to cement a starting spot
Yes the team is currently playing below its potential, and I have already said that has more to with Mou throwing a tantrum to make a point. The team finished 2nd last season and with proper additions would likely be competing for the title, but the management have not added players in quantity and/or quality. If you want a team that simply qualifies for CL , then keep signing players like Fred, but if you really want to challenge the best, you simply need better players
Not just that, they're young players, more for the future than the present.
Pep chose bravo, do you think that city's board told him, you chose him, no more gk for you? No, he got Ederson for a big price afterwards.
Same thing with Laporte when he had several 40/50+ CB.
Some players turn out good, others do not or later in their playing career.
One solid half of football changes nothing. If we don´t deliver massively the next few games, it´s not enough. One more wicked loss in October and he should be gone.
Yes? He bought them, every consequence regarding this is on him. If they would be brilliant, he would also be quick to take all the praise for buying world-class CBs. If they don´t work like they should, it´s up to him to make them perform, otherwise he does his job wrong. (I don´t even want it to be like at City, where a failed transfer just get´s rubbed out by buying another player)
Mou has never been an attacking genius as a coach and his teams tend to rely more on individual talent in the final 3rd. If you play more defensive players, it only makes a bad problem worse.
When you say Fred is not good enough, we need to be clear on what the measure is. He is definitely good enough as a depth player, and likely good enough as a starter that complements the core players, but he is not at the level of Pogba or De Bruyne. So if he is signed for the first 2 roles then it is fine, but if the objective was for him to be a 'de Bruyne', then whoever made that choice is mistaken. But given Mou's track record, I doubt that would be his choice, as he tends to ignore price when picking his transfer targets.
When it comes to the argument on transfers, I imagine he looks across to road at Pep and see's a manager who also made errors but has been fully backed to rectify these errors, especially when it comes to the back line. Pep has bought in Bravo, Ederson, Stones, Laporte, Mendy, Walker & Danilo all for an approximate 285 million quid. That has not only drastically improved their defense but also freed up their play when it comes to the other end of the pitch - remember they finished 4th in his first season and were a long way back from Leicester that year. Pep identified the gaps that needed plugging and got his players in without anyone questioning whether they were the right player or of a high enough quality.
We can argue all day about Bailly and Lindelof, and yes they were identified by Jose, but let's face it, neither of them has or even looks like the real deal just yet. They may come good for Jose or maybe the next manager, but are we not at risk of filling the squad with filler? Would United as a club not be better off to accept some players don't work out, replace them and keep moving forward? Are we not stagnating by hanging on to players which the manager doesn't particularly want and having a suit upstairs decide who is a better player than the ones we have? What happens if we replace Jose and the next manager thinks they all need replacing, and what if one of the players they want is someone Jose asked for - would they still only be as good as our 5th choice, or would the board back the manager?
We can argue all day about Bailly and Lindelof, and yes they were identified by Jose, but let's face it, neither of them has or even looks like the real deal just yet. They may come good for Jose or maybe the next manager, but are we not at risk of filling the squad with filler? Would United as a club not be better off to accept some players don't work out, replace them and keep moving forward? Are we not stagnating by hanging on to players which the manager doesn't particularly want and having a suit upstairs decide who is a better player than the ones we have? What happens if we replace Jose and the next manager thinks they all need replacing, and what if one of the players they want is someone Jose asked for - would they still only be as good as our 5th choice, or would the board back the manager?
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