The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked

[HailtotheKing]

Toby or Fathead wouldn't make much difference to the start we've had. It's such a pointless argument. Might have got a draw against Brighton or something.

Our issues are at the other end of the pitch and we clearly don't look like we're coached/drilled at all.

I agree to a certain extent. But I think you underestimate the freedom it would give being able to depend on your defence. The problem right now is our players aren’t allowed to fully express themselves because jose doesn’t trust our defence. So they’re playing staccato football. Having a solid defence is what allows free flowing football. Now in Jose’s case not exactly free flowing but much more so. Having a solid base would have a knock on effect all through the team. As would decent fullbacks. See City. See Liverpool. Difference with Klopp is he was fine to play free flowing football without a defence. Jose isnt. We’re somehow caught in the middle. And it’s impossible to play middle. You end up doing neither great which is where we’re at now. Middle in attack, middle on defence. Or to put it another way, crap.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

The toxic atomsphere surrounding the dressing will only get worse the longer Jose remains in charge.

In any case, I don't think he will last as long as some people fear. His sacking could be as early as tomorrow should we lose against West Ham.

I was thinking about this too but how would Woodward feel himself about all the negative attention coming towards him? Right or wrong - that does not look good for Jose's tenure.

With regards to transfer - its either A) Woodward could not get the players Jose wanted; which means Jose might get a chance in the January Window or B) Woodward doesn't like the players Jose is not too bothered about putting away like Martial & Pogba - only to be replaced by 31 year old players like Willian, Perisic or Alderweireld. If it's that case then I don't see it improving all that much when it comes to January.

 

[edgar allan]

The toxic atomsphere surrounding the dressing will only get worse the longer Jose remains in charge.

In any case, I don't think he will last as long as some people fear. His sacking could be as early as tomorrow should we lose against West Ham.

Why does his fate rest on the result tomorrow or next week? The only thing he has succeeded in, is turning the club into an absolute joke.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

I agree to a certain extent. But I think you underestimate the freedom it would give being able to depend on your defence. The problem right now is our players aren’t allowed to fully express themselves because jose doesn’t trust our defence. So they’re playing staccato football. Having a solid defence is what allows free flowing football. Now in Jose’s case not exactly free flowing but much more so. Having a solid base would have a knock on effect all through the team. As would decent fullbacks. See City. See Liverpool. Difference with Klopp is he was fine to play free flowing football without a defence. Jose isnt. We’re somehow caught in the middle. And it’s impossible to play middle. You end up doing neither great which is where we’re at now. Middle in attack, middle on defence. Or to put it another way, crap.

That's obviously true- but it can also be viewed more easier than that. Why do we want Aldeweireld for 65 odd million when we could go after another player; someone with obvious talent and a bit more long term for the same price. Why do we want Willian for 70 million when a player like Malcom moved for 38 Million to Barcelona?

That's just an example. With regards to the defence making our attack better -

a) Is sanchez's struggle to play as a LW that supplies to a target man the fault of our defence? Or is it because Sanchez is a forward who has never played to supply such a striker?
b) Is Lukaku struggling to play as a Target man due to our defence? Or is it because he himself said to all of us that playing like Drogba is not what he wants to do
c) is Rashford a right winger or a left winger? Will his performances get better due to our defence. Likewise is Martial a winger? if so how does the defence make him better

I've no doubt that a stronger defence makes our team better; but this isn't like Liverpool where they got Salah, Mane & Firminho working around before Klopp started begging for a £75 million defender - we have a lack of attacking cohesion with the players we have when we have 5 or 6 and not even two of them work well together. Likewise paying 75mil for a defender like Van Dijk makes sense - he has a career to stamp down & even if it doesnt work - he can be sold for £40 odd million - why must we go after alderweireld to have him play for a season or 2 max before he starts getting unwound by the next generation and leaves United on a Free +/- 8mil.

 

[Seven Seas Sardines]

New camera angle on the bust-up. Mourinho is really taking the piss, get him out of here!

 

[Mcking]

I think some people misunderstood that Mou press.

I say to the fans that the
fans are the fans, and the
fans have the right to have
their opinions and to have
their reactions.
But there is something that I
used to call football heritage
– I try to translate from my
Portuguese, which is almost
perfect to my English that is
far from perfect.
But translation, word by
word is something like
football heritage and what a
manager inherits is
something like is that the last
time Manchester United won
the Champions League, which
didn’t happen a lot of times,
was in 2008. The final was
2011.
Since reaching the final in
2011, in 2012 out in group
phase. The group
was almost the same group
this season.
In 2013, out at Old Trafford
in the last 16. I was on the
other bench.
In 2014, out in the
quarterfinal. In 2015, no
European football. In 2016,
comes back in the Champions
League and out in the group
phase. Into the Europa
League, second knockout,
out of the Europa League.
In 2017, play Europa
League and win the Europa
League with me and go back
into the Champions League.
In 2018, win the group with
15 points and lose at home in
the last 16.
So in seven years with four
different managers, once not
qualified for Europe, twice
out in the group phase and
the best was a quarter-
final. This is
football heritage.
And if you want to go to the
Premier League, the last
victory was 12-13 and in the
four consecutive seasons,
United finished fourth, fifth,
sixth and seventh – or
seventh, fourth, five and
six.
So, in the last four years
the best was fourth. This is
football heritage.
It means that when you
start the process, you are
here (using hands to
represent levels), you are
there or you are there. It is
heritage. It’s heritage.
In the last seven years the
worst position of Man City in
the Premier League was
fourth. In the last seven
years Man City was
champions twice and if you
want to say three times, they
were second twice. That’s
heritage.
Do you know what is also
heritage? It’s Otamendi, De
Bruyne, Fernandinho, Silva,
Sterling, Aguero. They are
investments from the past,
not from the last two years.
Do you know how many
United players left the club
last season? See where they
play, how they play, if they
play.

So basically - "I inherited shite."

 

[Sandikan]

The revisionism is startling around here at times. Yes, I want Mourinho out now but feck me, the majority at the time would have jumped at the chance to bring him in. I mean, the guy had just won a La Liga title the previous season and had a cracking CV. Why the feck would anyone have wanted David fecking Moyes who had never won a thing! I know I was stunned when we appointed him and never wanted him anywhere near the club.

It was pretty insane anyway.
But you only had to see the pure enjoyment all liverpool fans were taking in it.

Like when they apointed hodgson.but much worse

 

[Cassidy]

Didn’t Woodward come out and say they didn’t buy Alderweireld because he didn’t think he was better than who we had already.?

Meanwhile, I just watched the heritage “rant.”

Jose doesn’t even talk about heritage. He talks about football heritage. It’s no way near as bad as people make out. Hes basically explaining that it’s a process. And why it takes time. Yes, part of it is him defending himself. Because he has a big ego and he is a proud man. I really think stuff gets spun and then people swallow it.

For me what he says is true. We like to think we’re a big club and of course we are. But we haven’t done well in Europe in recent times. That’s a fact. Under 4 different managers too.

We shouldn’t have played like we did against Seville. For me that was the issue. Not his words.

No he didnt name Toby more likely that was labbeled at Maguire and Mina who we were linked heavily before that came out. But again thats conjecture because no players were named except Varane.

2 of those 4 managers were sacked.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

Possibly. But hiring Moyes was criminal.

Inarguably the worst decision that the club made since appointing Wilf Mcguiness to succeed Sir Matt Busby...It Just still doesn’t make any sense at all...

 

[Cassidy]

Both of them preferred Moyes over Mourinho at the time.

Crazy

 

[Jonno]

No. Otherwise Bayern wouldn't have hired manager like Kovac, or PSG with Tuchel whose CV isn't very good. 2 years ago Jose came with lot of baggage for stable clubs to hire him.

Lots of baggage, and lots of success. Funny how Manchester United, the largest and most profitable club in the world appointed him.

 

[Jonno]

After spending 400m on 10+ player, Spurs still have superior XI to United. It is clearly not Jose's fault. United should give him another 400m

That's not Jose's fault. You have a good look at the squad Jose inherited. Too old in parts, too young in others, too p!ss poor in many. Only 1 world class player in the GK. Then you look at Spurs squad of Lloris, Vertongen, Eriksen, Kane amongst others before Poch arrived. City, Kompany, Fernandinho, KDB, Silva, Aguero

Compare that to squad he inherited had a midfield of Schneiderlain, Schweinsteiger, and Hererra. An attack of Rooney and Rashford, fullbacks of Blind Rojo Darmian and Valencia. Compare that to the immense spine of Spurs, City and Chelsea. Yet you expect Mourinho to spend nothing and win everything. Strange opinion.

400 million doesn't buy you much when you have a broken squad at the top. 1 midfielder, 1 striker and that's almost half of the spend gone. Can't you see how many years behind City we are in terms of investment? They've been cleverly investing since 2012 on this current squad, and now it's pretty much unstoppable. United have started that with Mourinho. We genuinely need 1 manager for the long term to continue investing in the squad - like it or not. I think many United fans need waking up to just how far back we've been for 4-5 years.

 

[Jonno]

So you're heaping praise on him for what he's achieved so far. I would dissagree with that considering how so many players have underachieved since coming under his wing. Examples: Lukaku, Sanchez, Pogba, Bailly. Martial is performing worse under him than under VG. He's failed to develop Rashford further in his career. Lindelöv is a big mistake imo as many (incl Rio) would go along with.
Looking ahead, how do you see him turning this ongoing negative trend around? Because I'm finding it difficult, looking at his recent history, how that is possible.
The meltdown has begun it's there to be seen. Chelsea has already been mentioned. The longer they kept him the worse it became and the lower they plunged in the PL. Should we risk that happen to us? RM got rid when the rot started to set in and after he'd fallen out with Ramos, Casillas and Ronaldo. Two of these were brilliant for the club after he'd gone.
We should do the same!

How is Lukaku an example? He's scored a bucketload of goals since coming in. Zlatan, came in and lifted the entire squad. Bailly - still young and started his career at United very strongly and many fans claimed he was the best CB in the United squad

Pogba - Fergie, the greatest manager of all time couldn't make him happy at United and he fecked off for nothing, yet you criticise Mourinho?

Martial has ample opportunities even now to launch his United career. Under LVG he was patchy. The reason he scored more was because he was the main striker. He didn't match the tallies that Lukaku gets so why should he be our main striker now, when we have a better and more prolific striker in Lukaku?

When did I heap praise on Mourinho? I think you'll find I said he's not done an amazing job, but made decent progress. I'm not asking for him to be knighted or lavished, I'm simply arguing why he deserves to be our manager mid-long term against many childish fans that demand he wins everything with a smile on his face and buys a house in Manchester and w@nks off Pogba in training. Some of our fans (mainly the impatient keyboard warriors on here and twitter, not the thick and thin fans that attend games) are incredibly spoilt and unreasonable and seem to have no grasp of where we're at as a football club.

 

[AndyJ1985]

Lots of baggage, and lots of success. Funny how Manchester United, the largest and most profitable club in the world appointed him.

We hired Moyes and van Gaal ffs, your point is void

 

[Jonno]

We finished 6th in his first year ,right?

You, me and the rest of the footballing world saw and understood how he prioritised our Europa Cup run at the expense of our PL games. We could have probably at a push made 4th place but we effectively killed all momentum at the expense of a good Europa Cup win and an automatic CL place. A job very well done, so yes, we finished 6th. In fact, 6th to 2nd is even better, right?

If you've been following you'd know people want to enjoy football and watching us play.

If you've been following you'd know my only debates on this thread have been with people expecting us to have better results and compete for the PL and CL. But you're obviously not following.

Liverpool had to sell their best player (Coutinho) in order to reinforce the team in other areas tho still he didn't spend more than Mourinho in total, Guardiola for all he's spent he actually improved a lot of his players, whilst Poch has improved his entire squad without spending hundreds of millions.

That is absolutely not the reason they sold Coutinho - they sold him because they had absolutely no chance. Barca bullied their way into signing Coutinho and if Liverpool had their own way, they'd still have Coutinho, they did NOT sell him in order to strengthen in other areas!

Like it or not Spurs, City and Liverpool had better squads than the squad Mourinho took over. Yet fans criticise him for strengthening it. Laughable. We only finished 2nd to City, who have a squad about 5 years ahead of us in terms of investment. Laughable how people expect us to compete with that.

 

[Jonno]

Wow, after spent $400M, you are saying getting 2nd last season was over achievement? what a great endorsement to Mourinho.

You brought up Liverpool, who did they have last season? Milner, Henderson, Arsenal cast-off ox chamberlain, mignolet, Lovern. looked at their starting 11 and our squad at the beginning of the last season (before Salah became Salah, Firmino became Firmino), anyone with little bit logic or IQ going to say our squad was a level better than theirs. But their coach made the team better.

Liverpool had Mo Salah - the best player on the planet last season! They didn't finish 3rd or get to the CL final because of Milner or Lovren, they got there because they spent a fortune on Van Dyck and were blessed with the powers of Mo Salah - lets not kid ourselves.

 

[Jonno]

We hired Moyes and van Gaal ffs, your point is void

My point is perfectly valid. The point I was making was that all big clubs appoint a different range of managers with different attributes and styles over the years. What's your point?

 

[Sandikan]

How is Lukaku an example? He's scored a bucketload of goals since coming in. Zlatan, came in and lifted the entire squad. Bailly - still young and started his career at United very strongly and many fans claimed he was the best CB in the United squad

Pogba - Fergie, the greatest manager of all time couldn't make him happy at United and he fecked off for nothing, yet you criticise Mourinho?

Martial has ample opportunities even now to launch his United career. Under LVG he was patchy. The reason he scored more was because he was the main striker. He didn't match the tallies that Lukaku gets so why should he be our main striker now, when we have a better and more prolific striker in Lukaku?

When did I heap praise on Mourinho? I think you'll find I said he's not done an amazing job, but made decent progress. I'm not asking for him to be knighted or lavished, I'm simply arguing why he deserves to be our manager mid-long term against many childish fans that demand he wins everything with a smile on his face and buys a house in Manchester and w@nks off Pogba in training. Some of our fans (mainly the impatient keyboard warriors on here and twitter, not the thick and thin fans that attend games) are incredibly spoilt and unreasonable and seem to have no grasp of where we're at as a football club.

You make some good points, very true in places.

The main worries for me are that in his 3rd season we don't seem to have a particular style of play, and how little we're getting out of what is a quality set of attacking players.
When you start going through the signings, you start wondering where the money has gone, and which ones are undoubted successes

Even someone like Lukaku should be scoring more. But he has some games where he looks an absolute carthorse, and we don't seem to utilise his strengths.

 

[Sandikan]

Liverpool had Mo Salah - the best player on the planet last season! They didn't finish 3rd or get to the CL final because of Milner or Lovren, they got there because they spent a fortune on Van Dyck and were blessed with the powers of Mo Salah - lets not kid ourselves.

Let's not get carried away

 

[Buster15]

Possibly. But hiring Moyes was criminal.

Come on...why are we still taking about David Moyes after all this time.

That is behind us now so let's concentrate on the now and the future.

 

[Janson]

I do wonder what he saw in Moyes - Moyes was never known for playing a good brand of football. If his football was like Eddie Howes I could see why but it's literally the opposite.

It's so strange.

I don't know if it was about the brand of football. Moyes did well with Everton, I don't think many knew at the time what was to come. You can't blame SAF for wanting him really.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Come on...why are we still taking about David Moyes after all this time.

That is behind us now so let's concentrate on the now and the future.

Because some mentalist said that nobody wanted Mourinho and everyone wanted Moyes in 2013 which was found to be not just factually incorrect, but pure bollox. I would rather forget about “so c’mon feel the Moyes, play like Fergies boys....”. Shudder.

 

[Jonno]

You make some good points, very true in places.

The main worries for me are that in his 3rd season we don't seem to have a particular style of play, and how little we're getting out of what is a quality set of attacking players.
When you start going through the signings, you start wondering where the money has gone, and which ones are undoubted successes

Even someone like Lukaku should be scoring more. But he has some games where he looks an absolute carthorse, and we don't seem to utilise his strengths.

I think we're going through a bad moment as a team. If we go and win 7-8 on the bounce suddenly there are no problems and everything is working. It's incredibly premature to circle for the manager to get sacked when we have a bad moment. If he hadn't led us to 2nd and brought 3 trophies home so far then I'd be absolutely questioning his ability to recover here.

 

[Jonno]

Let's not get carried away

Who was better than Mo Salah last season?

 

[AndyJ1985]

Who was better than Mo Salah last season?

Messi

 

[Sandikan]

Who was better than Mo Salah last season?

Messi and Modric? Just for 2 in Spain.

 

[Sandikan]

I think we're going through a bad moment as a team. If we go and win 7-8 on the bounce suddenly there are no problems and everything is working. It's incredibly premature to circle for the manager to get sacked when we have a bad moment. If he hadn't led us to 2nd and brought 3 trophies home so far then I'd be absolutely questioning his ability to recover here.

I think we'll have a pattern for the next few months like we've just seen.

Couple of dodgy results, and the pressure ramps up to massive levels - then a few wins take it back down
(Brighton - Tottenham then the 3 away wins)

But it happens again - Wolves-Derby.

Hopefully West Ham is a good response and takes the pressure back down.

But I think this is undoubtedly his last season. It's just what carnage lies ahead of us

 

[Siorac]

Like it or not Spurs, City and Liverpool had better squads than the squad Mourinho took over. Yet fans criticise him for strengthening it. Laughable. We only finished 2nd to City, who have a squad about 5 years ahead of us in terms of investment. Laughable how people expect us to compete with that.

Wait, you're not actually saying Liverpool had a better squad than us in 2016?

 

[Random Task]

Why does his fate rest on the result tomorrow or next week? The only thing he has succeeded in, is turning the club into an absolute joke.

I guess the board want to give him time to turn things around. Even if the chances of that happening are zero to none.

 

[Yagami]

Yeah it's baffling, I don't see why Pogba wouldn't just do the same thing under the next manager.

Well, for one, Mourinho is the only manager Pogba's had a problem with for starters, and, on the opposite end regarding Mourinho, he's got a long line of players he's fallen out with at previous clubs, and said players haven't fell out with any other managers either.

Maybe Pogba would, but I'm just going off history.

 

[Sunny Jim]

I guess the board want to give him time to turn things around. Even if the chances of that happening are zero to none.

Nah, i think its the compensation thing. Once CL is gone his contract termination terms will kick in and we pay much less.

 

[Random Task]

I think we're going through a bad moment as a team. If we go and win 7-8 on the bounce suddenly there are no problems and everything is working. It's incredibly premature to circle for the manager to get sacked when we have a bad moment. If he hadn't led us to 2nd and brought 3 trophies home so far then I'd be absolutely questioning his ability to recover here.

That is one huge 'if' all things considered.

You're fighting a losing battle when your argument relies on ifs and maybes.

 

[Random Task]

Nah, i think its the compensation thing. Once CL is gone his contract termination terms will kick in and we pay much less.

Sadly enough, you're probably right.

Saving 15 million(?) clearly means more to our board than potentially saving our season.

 

[Janson]

Well, for one, Mourinho is the only manager Pogba's had a problem with for starters, and, on the opposite end regarding Mourinho, he's got a long line of players he's fallen out with at previous clubs, and said players haven't fell out with any other managers either.

Maybe Pogba would, but I'm just going off history.

That's a good point. I don't know if Pogbas previous teams have been in such a bad spot as we are, for there to even be a reason for him to complain. Going from what he's doing here, I think it's definitely likely he would do it under someone else if things don't go well.

 

[Woziak]

I think we'll have a pattern for the next few months like we've just seen.

Couple of dodgy results, and the pressure ramps up to massive levels - then a few wins take it back down
(Brighton - Tottenham then the 3 away wins)

But it happens again - Wolves-Derby.

Hopefully West Ham is a good response and takes the pressure back down.

But I think this is undoubtedly his last season. It's just what carnage lies ahead of us

The carnage will be an awful lot of 30 year old plus players on fat contracts;
A Valencia, A Young extended to 2020-21
N Matic last year will be 2020-21, Mata probably extended 2020-21, M RoJo 29 extended 2021-2022, A Sanchez 2021-22,

With young players like L Shaw, A Martial and M Rashford (not yet extended) and lots of young players like Gomez, Chong and Greenwood not seeing a clear path to the first team.

This is why Zidane is perfect he took over a similar situation all be it with much better players after Jose and Ancelloti had massively underperformed with a a great squad and nursed young talent like Ascensio, Vasquez, Moratta and Carvajhal who he had worked with in the spainish secunda division. He would know instantly how to get best out Lingard, Pogba, Pereira, Martial and Rashford. He's learning English, speaks fluent French, Italian and Spainish and more importantly would command the respect of United Prima Donna players because none of them have achieved a fraction as he did as a player !!

 

[dwd]

Well, for one, Mourinho is the only manager Pogba's had a problem with for starters, and, on the opposite end regarding Mourinho, he's got a long line of players he's fallen out with at previous clubs, and said players haven't fell out with any other managers either.

Maybe Pogba would, but I'm just going off history.

Mourinho is the 2nd United manager he has caused problems for.

 

[Yagami]

That's a good point. I don't know if Pogbas previous teams have been in such a bad spot as we are, for there to even be a reason for him to complain. Going from what he's doing here, I think it's definitely likely he would do it under someone else if things don't go well.

Honestly, even though history indicates otherwise, I share your concern that he'd try and undermine our next manager if he were to stay, too. It's just that, at the moment, it's hard to look past José's own history in terms of falling out with so many players in his previous jobs.

Seeing as José's staying for now, we just have to hope they both buck up and work towards the greater good.

 

[Yagami]

Mourinho is the 2nd United manager he has caused problems for.

Don't think Pogba had any problems with Fergie and vice versa. That was mainly his agent I believe.

 

[hn4manunited]

Don't think Pogba had any problems with Fergie and vice versa. That was mainly his agent I believe.

Please see the following link from another thread:

Pogba 'disgusted' by Fergie selection


http://en.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/276115.html


What Rafael told Paul Pogba after he started ahead of him in midfield v Blackburn

https://www.givemesport.com/1297189...-started-ahead-of-him-in-midfield-v-blackburn

 

[Yagami]

I wouldn't interpret that as them having personal problems like what we're seeing here, @hn4manunited . I don't think it's bad that Pogba felt this way, and he did what was best for him and his career, and I don't think Fergie holds a grudge or anything over him for doing so like I don't think Pogba ever held anything against Fergie. He just left to prove that he was good enough, and he ultimately did at Juve.