The MMA thread
- Thread starter Fortitude
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There's plenty of controversial fights on peoples recors though. Seems unfair to judge her based on them 2 fights and then not look at he rest of her career.
She's fought Valentina twice and quite clearly won the first, the second was much closer though plenty of people had Nunes winning. Why does she have to fight her a third time when she's already beat her?
GSP lost to Matt Serra and pretty much everyone thought he lost to Hendricks. Should he not be in GOAT contention now then?
You are making assumptions on a rematch which again seem unfair surely can only judge her on what has actually happened and that was Nunes clearly winning. How do you know how someone will fight in a fight that has yet to happen? I'd of thought Cody would of fought smarter vs. TJ the second time but he went backwards if anything.
Maybe so but surely it's only fair to judge on how they fought and that was Nunes definitely winning that fight within the rules that were set.
Thing is the 2nd wasn’t much closer Valentina clearly won it, classic counter striker vs aggression and for whatever reason the judges didn’t give it to Valentina even though she was the one connecting and being the better fighter.
Why is making assumptions on a rematch unfair? Likely hood if it happens Cyborg will be a lot more prepared and won’t make the stupid mistake of just charging after her and thinking she can walk through her punches.she clearly can’t. So I would imagine Cyborg will have learnt from this mistake and will adjust accordingly and will then deal with Nunes.
Who by the way performances and career were nothing special until she defeated Tate and then a finished Rousey who had no buisness being in with her. Beating Cyborg no doubt is a massive feather in her cap but for me this doesn’t make her the greatest of all time. If anything Joanna has proven far more than her.
In fairness that probably makes crippling the legs even easier
As much as i respect the skill levels of professional fighters i personally think there is a limit to what the smallest of fighters like DJ and 135-125lb fighters could do to guys even relatively untrained ones much bigger and way heavier than themselves.
I dunno if clearly won it. That's your opinion but I remember people being pretty split at the time. Media Scorecards I've found had 10 people giving it Nunes, 10 giving it Valentina and 2 giving it a draw. It seems you've made your mind up which is fair enough but there's plenty of people that saw it the other way as well.
Because the fight hasn't happened that's my point. She fought the fight and won it in dominant fashion. Why should there be an asterix against it because a rematch MAY go different. You can't fairly discredit someone because you personally think Cyborg might fight different. She might not fight different how do we know? You can only judge on the record and the record shows Nunes convincingly and ridiculously easily beat Cyborg. It seems you don't want to say she's the GOAT so are finding ways to not say it. Her record speaks for herself, discrediting her with potential rematches seems a bit unfair.
So her career was nothing special til she beat 3 of the best Women's fighters of all time? That's an odd comment (and beat Valentina twice in there as well.)
Why has Joanna proven more than her? Who has she beat of the level of Rousey, Cyborg, Tate or Valentina? She beat Gadelha twice but using your logic on Nunes/Valentina she shouldn't of been awarded the first one as Gadelha pretty clearly won it.
Nunes record against her best opponents (Cyborg, Rousey, Tate, Valentina x 2) is 5-0 with 1 controversial decision in there
Joanna (I'd argue Rose x 2 Valentina, Andrade, Gadelha x 2) is 3-3 with 1 controversial decision in there.
I don't get how she has proven FAR more?
I don’t have an issue with her clearly winning this fight, she clearly did, what I am saying is I doubt Cyborg will be so naive if they meet again. There is nothing wrong with that and I’m not discrediting what Nunes did, it was an outstanding performance. Fighting comes down to taking advantages of mistakes and Cyborg made several and one massive one which was to think she could take the punches and would eventually land on Nunes, clearly not the case, but like I said I doubt she would go in to a rematch underestimating her as she did or that reckless and in my opinion Cyborg will handle her in a rematch by closing the distance better backing her up against a cage and probably take her down try and control and beat her up on the ground.
Maybe she would, maybe she wouldn't. See Cody vs. TJ 2 where if anything Cody got shown up even more.
The fact is there is no proof of it, it's all prediction and guess work. In terms of women's GOAT who is better? You said Joanna earlier but then never explained why? Why should Nunes have to beat Valentina again to prove she's the best? Honestly who is better than her?
Valentina is better than Nunes, I base this on skill and performances, it’s the same reason I would say Joanna is better she’s racked out far more impressive performances.
Nunes beating Rousey is nothing, Rousey was broken and could never stand and strike, that defeat and the Holmes defeat were obviously coming to anyone who had watched her. Everytime she got the slightest touch in the face she froze like a deer in the headlights so that isn’t impressive to me.
Miesha Tate is a weird one as in the UFC she was heading towards journey man status then one good performance vs Holmes and all of a sudden she’s a somebody again.
Cyborg now that is an impressive name and fighter in good form so she deserves all the credit in the world for that but for me she just isn’t the greatest of all time as Joanna’s performances against Esparza, Andrade that other girl from TUF and so many more where she made an absolute mess of girls with skill and precision.
The problem with the UFC and people like Rogan and Dana is that they are like excitable teen angers and just blurt out whatever rubbish comes to mind so one week it’s such and such is the goat and next week after 1 victory such and such can be the goat and people latch on to these things.
I don't quite get this debate now. Are we talking your GOAT or are you arguing Valentina should be classed in a higher regard than Nunes by others?? I get you're allowed to think what you do but surely a status like that has to be based on record of some kind in sports like boxing or MMA? You can't define something like that because of who you think has the best pure individual skill level. There's plenty of skillful fighters who wouldn't be in contention cos the fact is it's about backing it up on the biggest stage possible which Nunes has done. I'm not saying you're wrong it's an opinion. But to me it seems the difference betwene a personal favourite fighter and a GOAT. I mean like at your Joanna example. How can she realistically be considered a better fighter with her current record? Sure she's great but Nunes CV is far more impressive. You sum it up yourself well with "that other girl from TUF" hardly the sign of a great opponent being known as that!
The Holm defeat was not obvious at all, that's a comment made in hindsight I'm sorry but if it was obvious how was she a huge bookies favourite going in to the fight? This kind of stuff just seems to be said to discredit Nunes. I'd agree Rousey wasn't the same fighter in the Nunes fight than she was in the past but how much does it take to praise Nunes for that performance? She overwhelmed her from second 1 o the fight.
Tate had won 4 in a row, how is the heading towards journey man status? Before that she'd gone 3 rounds with Rousey which at the time seemed hugely unlikely. She was down on the scorecards vs. Holm but again I don't know how that is journey man status, she won the fight and the title. Can't see how it's not an impressive win.
For me beating Rousey, Tate, Cyborg, Valentina twice is definite GOAT cementing in the women's MMA world. It's a better CV than Andrada, Esparza and the other girl from TUF. I'm not claiming there isn't controversy in the Valentina 2 fight but it seems you are discarding that for the likes of Joanna with Gadelha 1 at the same time.
I didn't see either Rogan or Dana say she's the best ever. Just the best female fighter ever. Even if you don't agree is it really that much of a stupid comment? She does have an impressive CV.
Cyborg, Aldo... what happens to these brazilian fighters?
USADA
Jimmy Smith let go by UFC, that was quick.
Whilst he was good, think he wasn't really needed with Rogan still there. Once that juice head leaves, Smith might get called back you never know.
Like I said the Holmes result was obvious to anyone that was paying attention and wasn’t a comment made in hindsight at all, it came from watching how Rousey reacted to getting punched and it was obvious with Holmes footwork and wrestling ability Ronda was going to find it very hard to get near her without getting lit up as Rondas whole plan was get a hold of you.
The fact I can’t recall the girls name means nothing she was 2nd best female fighter at the time after Esparza and the ref had to stop the fight as she was a bloody mess. Because JJ used he superior skills and striking against a tough opponent.
Rogans first comment after the ring announcement stuff was to say she was the greatest ever female.
Tate had also said before that Holmes fight she was away to retire and all of those fights were decision wins and 3 of them were on Fight nights, not even main eventing. Carmouche, Eye, Nakita and MCann which I think was a split decision.
Anyway this is an endless conversation and I’ll never say she is the Goat as she isn’t anywhere near it for me. You’ve got to show your skills against the best opponents there is to be regarded as such and she’s only done that against Cyborg because against Valentina she was like a zombie just pressing forward getting tagged and getting nowhere near her. Beat Cyborg again and beat Valentina convincingly then we can talk.
I thought that's why they brought him in, but I guess Rogan isn't going anywhere just yet
Right. Ok....so it was obvious but Rousey was over 1/10 to win the fight before hand? Maybe you called it (some people did so I won't say you didn't) but it wasn't obvious at all, lets not pretend it wasn't a huge shock at the time. You say it came from watching Rousey getting punched but she barely got punched in her career until the Holm fight so it surely was hindsight? As you're calling something happen whilst the fight is on and not before it. Of course during the fight I'm sure most people acknowledged she was struggling but before hand I'm pretty sure way more than half people watching thought Rousey would win.
The fact you can't remember someones name to me implies that the level of competition isn't that great. I'm guessing you mean Jessica Penne? Who is a pretty poor fighter and of course someone of Joanna's level is going to piece people like that up. It's massively unfair you seem to be using fights like that to justify Joanna being better than people like Nunes.
Rogan is known for being OTT but he has a point re Nunes. Even if you don't see her as the best ever why is it so ridiculous to suggest she is? She has beat every top level fighter she fought. Your whole point seems to be you don't rate her so no one else can.
I don't know why it matters if Tate fought on fight night or not, she still won a world title and still won her fights. Talking about decision wins in the same time of talking up Joanna seems strange to. 10 of her 15 wins have been decision, granted she won them easily but still seems strange to use it to criticise Tate.
The problem is she has shown her skills against the best. She's beat Tate, Valentina x2, Rousey, Cyborg in her last 6 fights, that's a ridiculous CV and better than any other woman in any division. Again it seems obvious you just don't like her and favour Valentina and that's fine and your decision but Nunes simply has the much better CV.
There is weight divisions for a reason shaq could hulk smash him
As much as i respect the skill levels of professional fighters i personally think there is a limit to what the smallest of fighters like DJ and 135-125lb fighters could do to guys even relatively untrained ones much bigger and way heavier than themselves.
No I do rate her, my point is that she isn’t the goat, Valentina and Cyborg are the only real quality she has gone up against and like I said Valentina beat her for me comfortably. If say she goes out beats Valentina, beats Cyborg again and beats Holmes then yeah she’d undoubtedly be the Goat. Right now she is not for me as there are better fighters than her.
You’re using Tate as a baramoter to prove your point of how good Nunes is so I just went about showing that she wasn’t that great. I mean if you want to poke holes in Penne who was 2nd ranked in the world then fine.
As for Rousey like I said you can see it in her very first fight in the UFC against Carmouche and other fights. If you’ve ever done any striking you’ll know that people react certain ways to the slightest contact. Some can take it and remain calm, others freeze and panic and basically lock up. Ronda had shown in numerous fights that any light contact to her face she freezes pulls back and sticks her jaw in the air.
Anyway let’s not pollute the thread anymore, we are t going to agree but I stand by my original statement she isn’t the Goat.
Who? Who has a better record than her. You can talk about and are entitled to an opinion of better skill but who has the better record? The GOAT talk in stuff like boxing and MMA a resume plays a huge part in that. Name 1 female fighter who has a better record. The history books won't show that you thought she lost the fight vs. Valentina, it will simply show she beat her (twice)
I didn't use Tate as a barometer at all. That would imply I'm saying Nunes is the best for beating Tate. i'm using Tate as an example of a good level fighter she fought along with Cyborg, Valentina, Rousey etc. I'm not poking holes in argument merely stating Penne isn't a great fighter and in fact the division was pretty week back then so being Number 2 whilst impressive doesn't mean she is great. I'm not discounting any of these fighters they're all of some level of ability for getting into the UFC but I'd argue Nunes opponents are better than Joanna's overall, to me that's hardly a hugely controversial comment.
I've done some striking yes, no need to be patronising and saying stuff like that though. I wouldn't expect only people who have played premier league football to be allowed to criticise premiership footballers. Again, my point was that Rousey was a huge favourite going in to that fight so it wasn't "obvious" she would lose at all and stuff like that does tend to be said with the benefit of hindsight. Maybe you had a hunch before but stuff like that is often skewed over time and viewed differently.
That's fine but having a debate isn't polluting a thread I don't think. Especially one which currently seems to be if Mighty Mouse can beat Shaq in a fight..
I’m done with this conversation as it leads nowhere hence why I would say we would be polluting a thread there is no longer any point to it, we are both on opposite sides of a very wide river just yelling back points in an endless loop I’m not going to come around to your point and I don’t have the will to explain mine much further and even if I did I doubt I’d miraculously sway your opinion.
I’ll say it again, beat Cyborg, beat Valentina (convincingly) beat Holmes then she can be considered the GOAT but for me being the GOAT is more than just a bunch of names on your record.
Also there was nothing condescending about what I said, not in the slightest, if anything I just said if you’ve done any striking, you’ll know when people get hit they react in different ways. I never suggested at all you hadn’t or put that across in a demeaning way.
You did use Tate as a Baramoter when you wrote out the Nunes hitlist and used her in your defence of look at the names she has beaten ie “show me someone with a more impressive hit list”
"I'm done with this conversation....but I'll carry it on"
Correcting you and carrying on a conversation are two different things. I want to get involved in this Shaq vs DJ convo as well, I have some points to put forward
a few yrs ago Shaq did a program where he actually boxed De La Hoya and Sugar Shane. Bit of a gimmick really but was funny seeing the size difference, fights all are on youtube.
You didn't correct me.
You stated your opinion was that to be considered GOAT she has to beat Cyborg (who she beat), Valentina (who she beat twice) and Holm.
That's an opinion not a factually correct statement, it's fair enough if you think that for GOAT status that's what she has to do but others will agree. I was more intrigued as to who you thought was best and why? And why does Nunes seemingly have to beat people twice or more to be considered the best? Where as the others can just be considered the best based on your opinion of their skill level.
It seems your argument was who your favourite fighter is rather than who would be considered the GOAT fighter. Each to their own at the end of the day and if you think what you do that's completely fair enough.
If you don't think saying " If you’ve ever done any striking you’ll know that people react certain ways to the slightest contact. Some can take it and remain calm, others freeze and panic and basically lock up" does give an implication you believe people haven't done striking of any kind. Cos it kind of assumes you think people haven't. Fair enough you didn't mean it that way but that's the way stuff like that always comes across.
It really doesn’t but whatever and that’s what I was correcting you over so umm yeah I did correct you. Anyway now we are definitely polluting the thread when there are more important things to discuss like Shaq vs DJ.
I don't know about rating Cyborg in a fair fight. She looks completely different now that she is getting tested. Non-juiced up Cyborg is not all that great a fighter imo and Nunes will demolish her in a rematch again if Cyborg is clean.
P4p Khabib should be number 1.
P4p Khabib should be number 1.
Hmm... Jones v Smith doesn't excite me. And id rather see Colby get his head crushed bit instead we'll get Usman trying to make woodleys leg pregnant.
Apparently Smith made enough of an impression by choking out Oezdimir, that Dana feels it warrants a title shot.
Hahaha Dana really works on a whim. What about Ferguson? He doesn't warrant a title shot despite nearly clearing out an entire division?
They clearly want to keep Jones busy or else he might go around kicking pregnant ladies in the stomach.
The other choices at LHW are less appealing. Jones has beaten both DC and Gustafsson twice now so they are out of the picture. Smith is directly below them on the rankings. After that you have the likes of Blachowicz, Oezdimir, Thiago Santos and Corey Anderson. The only other vaguely interesting fight beyond Smith is Thiago Santos, but I seriously doubt either will trouble him.
Yeah just shows how thin that division is. Hopefully Rockhold makes a splash and Walker is as good as promised to be...
I suppose they've got no where else to go except Smith. He's got 3 finishes in 3 and was active last year. I'm sure it's an easy night for Jon but they probably want to keep him active as he's easily the biggest active draw they have to fight.
I agree it should be colby though, weird that it's not considering they did a ton of promo with him, including meeting Trump which is a pretty big deal.
I would love seeing him trying to make his leg pregnant.
Each to their own, i guess
Woodley vs Usman makes no sense. Why does Colby still have an Interim title when Woodleys defended the real belt since he's won it.
Or was Colby already stripped of the Interim belt?
Or was Colby already stripped of the Interim belt?
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How about you fight him in kickboxing?