The MMA thread

Quite disappointed tbh. Is he going to get a ban and what happens to his belt??
 
Given how many fighters have "legitimately" used trt it would seem a joke to ban someone for something that is not performance enhancing.
Even if they did ban him the bans for steroids is so low that to be proportionate they would probably ban him for a week
 
duffer said:
Nope, he's not going to get a ban and he'll keep his belt.
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Just been reading up on it. I didn't realise the test was before the fight and they had known about it. I know he's the poster boy of the UFC but their stance on this is terrible. For Jones to face no sort of punishment and to keep it a secret is a huge disservice to the sport and the athletes of the UFC. Sets an awful example in my opinion whether the drug was performance enhancing or not makes no difference in my eyes. He should face some sort of ban and a fine at the very least.

As a pretty casual viewer I didn't realise the sport was riddled in drugs. Is this the case @sun_tzu ? I remember Nick Diaz getting banned for weed so what's different in this situation?
 
JackXX said:
As a pretty casual viewer I didn't realise the sport was riddled in drugs. Is this the case @sun_tzu ? I remember Nick Diaz getting banned for weed so what's different in this situation?
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If you get caught with coke/weed in your system "outside of competition" (ie a month before a fight, like Jones) then the UFC say there's no problem. Diaz actually fought with an illegal substance in his system. That's the difference.
 
duffer said:
If you get caught with coke/weed in your system "outside of competition" (ie a month before a fight, like Jones) then the UFC say there's no problem. Diaz actually fought with an illegal substance in his system. That's the difference.
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Ok thanks.
 
I think it's actually good for MMA fans that the T/E ratio stuff is being discussed. I've noticed a lot of MMA fans don't want to accept that most fighters use PED's. The fact they haven't failed tests doesn't mean anything. It's crazy that so many have failed tests in the past, particularly pre the introduction of random testing, as it's so easy not to get caught. Chael admitted that he did his own test and past, before applying for a license. You have to be pretty naive to think it's only one or two doing this.

This is sport, where guys of 6ft and under struggle to get to 185 lbs. You get guys under 6ft, weighing in at 205 with low body fat percentage and still not failing drug test. Wanderlei never failed a drug test and for years fought at 205, at 5ft 11", with a rippling six pack. Anyone who works out with any seriousness knows that's a drug uses. Tim Kennedy is one of the most outspoken guys against drugs. Yet he lies about his height. He's 5ft 9" max. Compare him stood next any of his previous opponents and you'll see he's nowhere near the 5ft 11" he claims. But those 2 extra inches equate to about 10 lbs of lean body mass. He weighs in at around 8% body fat at 185 lbs. He's not natural, yet he's always banging on about wanting more testing etc.

I think suspicion around someone like Jones is great as it could finally make fans realize that the likes of Vitor are rare in their ability to get caught, not their use of drugs. Jones has passed a test and had normal TE ratio. Then he suddenly has the TE ratio of a girl guide. Start being suspicious about all your heroes, be it it Anderson Silva or GSP etc. On the subject of GSP, he quit MMA weighing 190 lbs. He was then photoed claiming to weigh 200 lbs, just 6 months later. Anyone who knows anything about building muscle, knows it's simply impossible for an athlete, who has been training for years to add 10 lbs of muscle in such a short space of time. An 18 year old kid, who has just started training, could add 10 lbs of lean body mass in 6 months. A guy of GSP's height, who is in his 30's and is already pretty much close to his max genetic potential, would be pleased to add 1 lb in an entire year.

Here is a link where GSP says he's bulked to 200 lbs.
http://www.tvasports.ca/2014/06/24/gsp-plus-gros-que-jamais

Here is a photo of him at 200 lbs.
http://www.titocouture.com/category/george-st-pierre/page/3/

What is the point of drug testing, when we know GSP will pass, if he comes back?
 
Here is an article on what a natural athlete can expect to be able to weigh if they everything right in their body building training. There are various different genetic potential calculators, but they all end up with similar results and are devised from natural body building competitor stats. So a guy of 5 ft 10", should be able to have about 161 lbs of lean mass. If GSP is 14 in those photos, than he's got about 10 lbs more lean mass than people who dedicated their lives to body building. The potential for athletes who don't will naturally be less, yet so many MMA fighters seem to exceed these estimates!

http://www.builtlean.com/2011/03/30/how-much-muscle-can-you-gain-naturally/

Rashad Evans used to wrestle at 174 lbs. A year later he's competing in an MMA tournament at 210 lbs and he wasn't even fat. Here is a photo of 5ft 10" Rashad Evans weighing in at 205 lbs. The most he can be in that photo is 10% body fat. But he's never failed a test either. You can even see signs of gyno.

http://archive.floridatoday.com/usatoday/article/2427665

When Bisping and Chael were laughing that Romero and Jacare are on a lot more than protein powder, they aren't joking. It's obvious, but they will pass their tests as they always have.
 
I can't believe your figures there. 185lbs is just over 13 stone. I've known several amateur rugby players six foot or less who reached that weight with very little body fat and definitely didn't use PEDs (other than creatinine). At least one of them would have managed that while still in school. And that's without any of the highly specialised diet and training that MMA guys use.

I'm nit-picking though. Wouldn't be surprised at all if most of them are juicing and I know next to nothing about body-building. I'm sure @Zarlak will have an opinion though.
 
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I hope this talk of anything more than recreational drug use turns out to be BS. If it isn't, that's his legacy up in smoke.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I can't believe your figures there. 185lbs is just over 13 stone. I've known several amateur rugby players six foot or less who reached that weight with very little body fat and definitely didn't use PEDs (other than creatinine). At least one of them would have managed that while still in school. And that's without any of the highly specialised diet and training that MMA guys use.

I'm nit-picking though. Wouldn't be surprised at all if most of them are juicing and I know next to nothing about body-building. I'm sure @Zarlak will have an opinion though.
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Trust me, before I got into bodybuilding, I would have been of the same opinion as you. But what people deem as low body fat is usually around 14%. Also below 6ft every inch of height usually means about 5 lbs potential lean mass and above 6ft is goes to abut 6 lbs per inch. All that means is that a guy of 6 ft 2" should be able to have about 27 lbs of lean body mass, than a guy of 5ft 9". So these little things make a big difference. I seriously doubt the rugby players you know are below 5ft 9" and 8% body fat, whilst weighing over 185 lbs. At the end of the day the UK's most well known "natural" body builder is 5ft 10" and 5% body fat on stage and he weighs 175 lbs. His name is Rob Riches and he got busted for steroids!

But we shouldn't be comparing them with body builders anyway. Bodybuilders get everything right in terms of diet and training for building muscle. Michael Bisping has said a couple time that it just makes no sense to him how all his opponents are so muscular. These guys go hard for 5 rounds, so you don't really want that much muscle and your training should relate to that. This is why EPO is such a popular steroid. Lots of muscle means more oxygen is required and EPO allows red blood cells to carry more oxygen.

Also if you aren't in to bodybuilding etc you probably wont know about pro hormones etc. So many people take them and still count themselves as natural, because they come in pill form and can be bought legally on the high street. So when rugby players and so on claim they aren't on anything other than creatine, I wouldn't be so sure. I used to thin if you can buy it off the shelves in the UK, then it's a safe and legal supplement.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I can't believe your figures there. 185lbs is just over 13 stone. I've known several amateur rugby players six foot or less who reached that weight with very little body fat and definitely didn't use PEDs (other than creatinine). At least one of them would have managed that while still in school. And that's without any of the highly specialised diet and training that MMA guys use.

I'm nit-picking though. Wouldn't be surprised at all if most of them are juicing and I know next to nothing about body-building. I'm sure @Zarlak will have an opinion though.
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I did it for Judo in highschool, in 4 months i gained 15kgs, that's an absolutely disgusting thing to do.
 
redmeister said:
Trust me, before I got into bodybuilding, I would have been of the same opinion as you. But what people deem as low body fat is usually around 14%. Also below 6ft every inch of height usually means about 5 lbs potential lean mass and above 6ft is goes to abut 6 lbs per inch. All that means is that a guy of 6 ft 2" should be able to have about 27 lbs of lean body mass, than a guy of 5ft 9". So these little things make a big difference. I seriously doubt the rugby players you know are below 5ft 9" and 8% body fat, whilst weighing over 185 lbs. At the end of the day the UK's most well known "natural" body builder is 5ft 10" and 5% body fat on stage and he weighs 175 lbs. His name is Rob Riches and he got busted for steroids!

But we shouldn't be comparing them with body builders anyway. Bodybuilders get everything right in terms of diet and training for building muscle. Michael Bisping has said a couple time that it just makes no sense to him how all his opponents are so muscular. These guys go hard for 5 rounds, so you don't really want that much muscle and your training should relate to that. This is why EPO is such a popular steroid. Lots of muscle means more oxygen is required and EPO allows red blood cells to carry more oxygen.

Also if you aren't in to bodybuilding etc you probably wont know about pro hormones etc. So many people take them and still count themselves as natural, because they come in pill form and can be bought legally on the high street. So when rugby players and so on claim they aren't on anything other than creatine, I wouldn't be so sure. I used to thin if you can buy it off the shelves in the UK, then it's a safe and legal supplement.
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I think that's the difference between the weight of (most) MMA fighters and body-builders. I'd imagine you can still have visible abs and good muscle definition with body fat even higher than 14%. Which is probably where most MMA fighters come in. Jon Bon Jones has never looked particularly ripped anyway. I'm sure if he got his body fat down to single digits he'd be quite a bit lighter.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think that's the difference between the weight of (most) MMA fighters and body-builders. I'd imagine you can still have visible abs and good muscle definition with body fat even higher than 14%. Which is probably where most MMA fighters come in. Jon Bon Jones has never looked particularly ripped anyway. I'm sure if he got his body fat down to single digits he'd be quite a bit lighter.
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But at the weigh in we get see them at their exact weight. A 6 pack usually becomes visible at about 12%. It's clearly defined at 10%. So when we see people like Rashad (who claims 5ft 11", but isn't), weighing in at exactly 205, and looking cut to shreds, it's very suspicious. There is no way he's more than 10% body fat there. It's an incredibly high amount of lean body mass for someone his height. By the time they get into the octagon they are bloated as they've usually added close to 20 lbs since the weigh in.

Jones was never suspicious due to his physique. I was just trying to point how one way of illustrating how prevalent it is in MMA by using the "look" test. There should be zero surprise when the biggest and most respected names come under suspicion. It's hard to fail tests and those who do should be banned, but I feel the fans are too condemning of them, as you have to be pretty naive not to think most are on it. So many fighters have come out and said virtually everyone is using, yet so often fans seem to resist this, especially with their favourite or most respected fighters. Look at the examples of Cro Cop and Shogun. Their UFC records are rubbish compared to when they were fighting in a non tested organisation. Yet their fans claim Shoguns knees are the problem and Cro Cop lost motivation, rather than that in the UFC you have to cycle off much earlier, whilst in Pride you can take Tren (which turns you into an animal) right up to the fight.
 
@redmeister don't forget that they are totally dehydrated during the weigh in, you can temporarily lose 5 to 12% of your body mass, by combining sauna, jogging and eating almost nothing.
 
redmeister said:
Look at the examples of Cro Cop and Shogun. Their UFC records are rubbish compared to when they were fighting in a non tested organisation. Yet their fans claim Shoguns knees are the problem and Cro Cop lost motivation, rather than that in the UFC you have to cycle off much earlier, whilst in Pride you can take Tren (which turns you into an animal) right up to the fight.
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I think its also fair to point out Shogun was great at kicks to the head of a downed opponent rather than GNP or BJJ - something allowed under pride rules but not under UFC rules which has meant that he has had to rely more on his BJJ game (which whilst very good he is better defensively than offensively)and as I say GNP was never his strongest suit so that probably didn't help him - that said even after his knee injuries he still became champion so I think you would have to say he was a success in the UFC
 
JPRouve said:
@redmeister don't forget that they are totally dehydrated during the weigh in, you can temporarily lose 5 to 12% of your body mass, by combining sauna, jogging and eating almost nothing.
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Id like to see them move the weigh ins to the morning/ early afternoon of the fight - you would see a lot less weight cutting and in my opinion much fresher fighters rather that as we see far to often fighters who cut so much water they went straight onto IV bags after the weigh in and they gas out in the 3rd round
 
sun_tzu said:
Id like to see them move the weigh ins to the morning/ early afternoon of the fight - you would see a lot less weight cutting and in my opinion much fresher fighters rather that as we see far to often fighters who cut so much water they went straight onto IV bags after the weigh in and they gas out in the 3rd round
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being saying this for ages. This would prevent a lot of dubious situations.
 
sun_tzu said:
Id like to see them move the weigh ins to the morning/ early afternoon of the fight - you would see a lot less weight cutting and in my opinion much fresher fighters rather that as we see far to often fighters who cut so much water they went straight onto IV bags after the weigh in and they gas out in the 3rd round
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It's complicated for the announcers and the UFC, if the a fighter doesn't make weight, you have not enough time to replace him.
 
JPRouve said:
It's complicated for the announcers and the UFC, if the a fighter doesn't make weight, you have not enough time to replace him.
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I cant recall them changing a fighter due to a weigh in before - typically if they miss weight they forfit a % (is it 25% or 50%) of their prize money to their opponent - that mechanic could remain unchanged
 
JPRouve said:
It's complicated for the announcers and the UFC, if the a fighter doesn't make weight, you have not enough time to replace him.
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they could easily have a couple of fighters as back up ready just in case (in case the other fighter refuses to fight a over weight opponent). I think they don't want to change it for other reasons...
 
JPRouve said:
@redmeister don't forget that they are totally dehydrated during the weigh in, you can temporarily lose 5 to 12% of your body mass, by combining sauna, jogging and eating almost nothing.
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But so are body builders. When we see these 205 lb guys in the octagon, they are closer to 220 lbs. So they don't look so ripped. But at the weigh in we get to compare them with on stage body builders. Obviously they don't have the same proportions or natural insertions, so they don't look as good, but we can see who their lean body mass compares.
 
redmeister said:
But so are body builders. When we see these 205 lb guys in the octagon, they are closer to 220 lbs. So they don't look so ripped. But at the weigh in we get to compare them with on stage body builders. Obviously they don't have the same proportions or natural insertions, so they don't look as good, but we can see who their lean body mass compares.
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!
 
George Owen said:
they could easily have a couple of fighters as back up ready just in case (in case the other fighter refuses to fight a over weight opponent). I think they don't want to change it for other reasons...
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I dont think the weigh in time factor has anything to do with the UFC anyways.

Its just the rules in combat sports in general. Weigh ins are 24 hours prior.

I doubt UFC would have any interest in paying fighters to be on standby just in case either.
 
redmeister said:
But so are body builders. When we see these 205 lb guys in the octagon, they are closer to 220 lbs. So they don't look so ripped. But at the weigh in we get to compare them with on stage body builders. Obviously they don't have the same proportions or natural insertions, so they don't look as good, but we can see who their lean body mass compares.
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Sorry i don't understand, what is your problem, their real weight, the doping or both ?
 
PhilipB said:
http://www.subjectmma.com/explained-jon-jones-drug-test-scandal/

Good article here that summarises the whole thing pretty well. It really seems like Jones was on something more than cocaine, based on everything I've been reading. The coke is a tiny story, a distraction, compared to that.
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Someone posted a similar article earlier on in the thread. Piss tests are a terrible way to determine serum concentrations of anything. Especially in athletes, whose hydration status will be all over the place over the course of an average day training, so the concentration of anything dissolved in the piss will go up and down like a yo yo. Useful for tracing presence or absence of something (drug screens) but crap for anything more complex than that.

Interesting point about the blood sample being taken but never disclosed. The plot thickens...
 
JPRouve said:
Sorry i don't understand, what is your problem, their real weight, the doping or both ?
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I don't have a problem, as I don't mind them taking PED's. I got into MMA early so it would be absurd to start moaning about it when even the likes of Royce got busted. I loved Pride, so again it would be stupid. I was very entertained when the UFC brought in Brock and though he hasn't ever failed a test, I'm not blind! So I definitely don't have an issue with PED use as it's part of the sport and I enjoy the sport.

My point is to simply show that so many of the fighters have more lean body mass then they should naturally, yet we rarely see failed drug tests. Until recently there wasn't even random testing. Yet lots of MMA fans really see the fact fighters have not failed tests as proof they are clean, when often you just need to look at them to know they aren't.
 
Randall Flagg said:
I dont think the weigh in time factor has anything to do with the UFC anyways.

Its just the rules in combat sports in general. Weigh ins are 24 hours prior.

I doubt UFC would have any interest in paying fighters to be on standby just in case either.
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For sure, its just a thought. It just would be so much better that way. Weight cut is a dangerous activity that can potentially kill you, so i don't know why there's room for that. Anyways, i dont mind if we keep going as it is.

ps. doubt UFC would have to pay much to keep a couple of extra fighters... how many fit ready to go pro fighters would be more than ready to step in for a chance to be part in a ufc event?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Someone posted a similar article earlier on in the thread. Piss tests are a terrible way to determine serum concentrations of anything. Especially in athletes, whose hydration status will be all over the place over the course of an average day training, so the concentration of anything dissolved in the piss will go up and down like a yo yo. Useful for tracing presence or absence of something (drug screens) but crap for anything more complex than that.

Interesting point about the blood sample being taken but never disclosed. The plot thickens...
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Yea I get that, and like Randall I don't want to believe it, but it really seems suspicious indeed.
 
George Owen said:
For sure, its just a thought. It just would be so much better that way. Weight cut is a dangerous activity that can potentially kill you, so i don't know why there's room for that. Anyways, i dont mind if we keep going as it is.

ps. doubt UFC would have to pay much to keep a couple of extra fighters... how many fit ready to go pro fighters would be more than ready to step in for a chance to be part in a ufc event?
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But the logistics of it do seem pretty hard to have fighters on stand by ready to jump in. Say you have on average around 10 fighters on the card, you then need 10 fighters to do a training camp, pay their own costs, pay for flights, hotels etc and most of them might not even get to fight. Then you have fighters who like to prepare by creating strategies geared around those they are fighting, do you make them create two plans for two different fighters and so on? Seems too complicated to implement.
 
George Owen said:
For sure, its just a thought. It just would be so much better that way. Weight cut is a dangerous activity that can potentially kill you, so i don't know why there's room for that. Anyways, i dont mind if we keep going as it is.

ps. doubt UFC would have to pay much to keep a couple of extra fighters... how many fit ready to go pro fighters would be more than ready to step in for a chance to be part in a ufc event?
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a fight camp is a long (and expensive business - for example 12 weeks living away paying for you accomodation, your trainers (probably at least a couple of guys) plus paying for gym time, sparing partners and wages on top of that trainers often take a % of any fight purse so they would probably want more money of you were on stand by and all that comes out of the fighters money (often up front)
 
redmeister said:
I don't have a problem, as I don't mind them taking PED's. I got into MMA early so it would be absurd to start moaning about it when even the likes of Royce got busted. I loved Pride, so again it would be stupid. I was very entertained when the UFC brought in Brock and though he hasn't ever failed a test, I'm not blind! So I definitely don't have an issue with PED use as it's part of the sport and I enjoy the sport.

My point is to simply show that so many of the fighters have more lean body mass then they should naturally, yet we rarely see failed drug tests. Until recently there wasn't even random testing. Yet lots of MMA fans really see the fact fighters have not failed tests as proof they are clean, when often you just need to look at them to know they aren't.
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Ah, okay so we have the same stance, except that it is possible to be like they are without using any drugs, the problem is that their lifestyle is totally wrong for that, it something that you do everyday of your life and not only a few weeks before a fight.

You need to be very special mentally and unfortunately they are not. So i think that most of this guys are using drugs.
 
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