The main current problem, players or formation ?

[Wolfbot]

A bit of both in my opinion. Not really the system as such but under both Ten Hag and now Amorim, we play formations that result in a lack of bodies in the middle of the park, and we don't have players good enough physically or that position themselves well enough to get away with it when other teams put an extra body in.

It's not a coincidence that most of our best games have had a couple of midfielders playing deeper and closer together, and one not far ahead of them to do more creatively. It's not ideal in terms of wanting to attack, but it's what works best for us at the moment in my opinion. (We don't really attack well anyway, so it's not like we actually sacrifice much playing more conservatively).

On the players side we have too many supposed professionals players making many unprofessional errors. Not a decent striker to be seen anywhere in the house either. Then we've got the nonsense players like Antony and Rashford and permacrocks in Shaw and Mount meaning we don't have much depth either.

It's a bit of a mess really, as everyone well knows.

 

[stevoc]

Players mostly, specifically their inability to quickly adapt to 343. Maybe it's unfair to ask them to do that mid-season, Amorim must have suspected there would be struggles taking that approach but concluded the positives outweigh the megatives. But a better question is perhaps if adapting to 343 and the growing pains that come with that is actually worth it. Time will tell I guess. I do think for this formation to work Amorim will have to either tweak it especially in midfield as we regularly get overrun in there. Or sign some of the worlds best and most athletic midfielders this summer. I don't hold out much hope for the latter.

 

[next_number_seven]

We play 5-4-1 without the ball.

If the other team plays 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, then that means we're short a man in center mid.

Is the theory that one of the CBs steps out to midfield?

Would it be better if one of the CBs went wide and the WB pushed up and then the no 10 goes in center mid. But then does that defeat the purpose of the system?

I don't see the benefits of the system in that sense.

Amorim seems convinced of his philosophy so I guess we have to give him the benefit of the doubt and some time.

I guess the benefit of the system in attack is that if the WBs push up, we've an extra man in the no 10 position and 3 defenders as safety.

We can't really judge him until next season.

 

[P Jones's Other Left Foot]

Whilst I like the direction Amorim is heading, I think you've got to be tactically flexible enough to get the best out of any given set of players. It's clear, to me at least, that we don't have the squad to play 3-4-3 to a consistently high level at the moment but seems like better or worse we're sticking with it.

Sure, our players need to take responsibility for their performances - the individual errors need to be eradicated and we desperately need a competent CF to give us an option when we win the ball. However, expecting them to adapt quickly to a new formation midway through a season is signs of inexperience from Amorim. I'd much rather we mix it up a bit and go all-in for 3-4-3 in the summer with a full pre-season and improved squad, with new recruits targeted for the purpose of the implementing new tactics.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I guess there must be something in the water around West London then, since Chelsea's players didn't have problems adjusting to playing with three at the back and winning both the PL and the CL.

 

[Pacemerchant]

First post and straight into giving my opinion. Apologies in advance.

There is no doubt that the players are not good enough for Manchester United. However I do not believe they are close on the worst group of players in the premier league, which they currently seem very close to being.

While a different formation is not a panacea, I think it would greatly improve us. For me a straight up 443 suits this squad the most. Amad and Garnacho to the side of a striker. With a midfield 3 which would help Mainoo in particular who seems not to suit playing in a 2. Also someone like Mazraoui seems to be better as a conventional full back.

Again it will not cure all our ills but the manager has to get the best out of the squad or he will not be around for long. He needs to get to the summer and then build towards his preferred formation.

 

[Aretak]

To salvage Ten Hag's dross, he has to simply get the best out of the players and do something similar to what Ruud did. Then, over time and with successive transfer windows, he should be able to gradually impose his system, which by necessity will be adapted to suit the league he's working in. The fact that he hasn't worked that out yet is scary.

He'd worked it out before he was even appointed. Let's not forget that in one of his first interviews he said that he wanted to wait until the summer, but Ineos told him it was now or ever and he had to take over straight away. Ever since he arrived he's made it clear that it's going to be an extremely painful process trying to implement his style of football on the team. But then that's what he presumably was hired for. He wasn't hired to completely abandon everything that had brought him success as a manager to date. Which, I remind you, is exactly what Erik ten Hag did - and it resulted in endless complaints about that fact during his tenure. He played "pragmatic" football and even publically said that his United team would never play like his Ajax one because they weren't suited for it. That went down like a lead balloon on here at the time. The biggest complaint about Ten Hag's United, from both pundits and the fanbase, was that he completely failed to impose a distinct style of play during his tenure (beyond the infamous midfield doughnut). He did what you suggest and he compromised and adapted and tried to somehow make the best of this squad full of underperforming misfits. And where did that get him in the end?

People have gotten what they asked for in Amorim. A manager who refuses to abandon his principles, who believes in his system and isn't willing to toss it out the window as a quick fix. Whether it will work out for him in the long run is of course highly questionable, but Ten Hag's opposing approach completely failed as well. Maybe at some point it just has to be acknowledged that the vast majority of the squad isn't good enough, and continuing to pander to them in the hopes of finishing 8th instead of 13th isn't worth it.

 

[SambaBoy]

A bit of both really.

You can see how much we struggle at Old Trafford against 'lesser' teams - and there's a few reasons for it. The pitch is significantly bigger than most in the PL, and the players are asked to cover larger areas of space plus teams play more on the counter at Old Trafford and I think they know that is a winning formula. We always seem to get the ball out wide, and then back inside for a cross which has a low success rate, and then teams spring and counter us.

We just don't have the physicality to cover these large spaces with some players not suited to it at all. That's the defensive side of it.

On the attacking side, again the midfield has no legs or ability to beat a man. We need a ball carrier in there - Mainoo has excellent feet and dribbling ability but he can't carry the ball forward 10-20 yards through sheer power. The likes of Baleba and Ayari were doing that for fun yesterday, and all the top teams have someone who can do that. It opens the game up and creates space, but all our actions are easy to read and there's no unpredictability in our play.

 

[davidmichael]

First post and straight into giving my opinion. Apologies in advance.

There is no doubt that the players are not good enough for Manchester United. However I do not believe they are close on the worst group of players in the premier league, which they currently seem very close to being.

While a different formation is not a panacea, I think it would greatly improve us. For me a straight up 443 suits this squad the most. Amad and Garnacho to the side of a striker. With a midfield 3 which would help Mainoo in particular who seems not to suit playing in a 2. Also someone like Mazraoui seems to be better as a conventional full back.

Again it will not cure all our ills but the manager has to get the best out of the squad or he will not be around for long. He needs to get to the summer and then build towards his preferred formation.

As bad as we are I’m not sure we’d be allowed to play an extra player mate, that said I don’t think it’d change much.

 

[alexthelion]

ETH it was his tactics that were suicidal, the players were decent enough. Not champions, but not 12 defeats in 16 games bad, or whatever our current run is.

 

[Tallis]

I don't think the players are as bad as they are being made out to be. The problems with the squad I can see:

1. Players not fitting the system. For instance, on paper, our CBs are good and should be a strong point. But we still concede loads and also have difficulty playing out. For instance, Licha is meant to be a central defender who plays line breaking passes and steps out occasionally. He does not have the pace to go against pacy wingers which in a back 4 would be the FBs job. De Light is a good box defender but has very little ability to play out.

2. Not enough squad depth - Ugarte, Maz and Mainoo have all looked knackered in the last few games. Basically, they are playing more than they can handle at the moment.

3. A few players are just not good enough. Onana may be in this bucket.

 

[gaffs]

If formation was the main issue, then ETH would still have a job. We were abject under him too.

 

[gaffs]

Garbage players, playing in a garbage system at a club being run by garbage owners.

The whole thing is a complete shitshow.

Garbage system that won Amorim 2 titles (and w 3rd would have come this season had he not left) and allowed his Sporting team to beat Arsenal and City in the CL?

 

[alexthelion]

Players and management.

Players' mentality is shite. They can play well against teams they're not expected to beat, e.g., Liverpool, Arsenal, City but then don't jhave the mentality against the other teams. Also, their athleticism is woeful. This comes down to management buying the wrong players. Very few, if any, have outstanding pace,strength or technical ability. It doesn't matter the system, they've proven to not be good in all of them. Then there's those with a terrible mentality.

Realistically we need to prioritise players who are technical and athletic, something we've not done for years.

 

[gaffs]

The players are clearly the biggest problem, the formation might not be suited to a lot of them but they’ve shown they don’t excel in any particular formation. We need yet another mass clear out, what a shambles!

Agree. They were the worst coached team in the league under ETH. It was said many times.

Expecting this lot to learn a new system (infact any system) mis season is too much.

The best we can hope for is to get to the end of the season and hope that Amorim can get them to learn the system, along with some improvements in key areas.

 

[Nep77]

Idea that only alternative to Amorim system is basketball with big hole in the middle of Ten Hag is baffling. There are other way to play football? We can start by not letting opponent run through the midfield.

 

[Malone_Post]

Garbage system that won Amorim 2 titles (and w 3rd would have come this season had he not left) and allowed his Sporting team to beat Arsenal and City in the CL?

ETH won titles in Holland & took Ajax to the CL semis knocking out Madrid on the way.
Ole won titles in Norway & regularly beat Pep’s all conquering City team.

Their systems turned out to be garbage too. Any system that has a Manchester United team playing 5 defenders + a DM at home is a garbage system. It’s absolutely awful to watch & goes against everything Manchester United should be about.

 

[stoinz]

Players and management.

Players' mentality is shite. They can play well against teams they're not expected to beat, e.g., Liverpool, Arsenal, City but then don't jhave the mentality against the other teams. Also, their athleticism is woeful. This comes down to management buying the wrong players. Very few, if any, have outstanding pace,strength or technical ability. It doesn't matter the system, they've proven to not be good in all of them. Then there's those with a terrible mentality.

Realistically we need to prioritise players who are technical and athletic, something we've not done for years.

I do think most of our players really tried for the managers but for some reasons they are not able to adapt and we always end up reverting to counter attacking. Atheleticism or lack of is another likely cause. Ole RR and ETH had been working on the player's fitness since day 1 but they still looked knackered after 60-70mins. The thing is we have refreshed so many players and management staffs (doctors, physios etc) since Ole and the problems remain the same.

No matter who we recruit, they are sure to turn crap or injured within months. I can imagine us ruining peak Messi too.

 

[KStandBarmyArmy1993]

ETH won titles in Holland & took Ajax to the CL semis knocking out Madrid on the way.
Ole won titles in Norway & regularly beat Pep’s all conquering City team.

Their systems turned out to be garbage too. Any system that has a Manchester United team playing 5 defenders + a DM at home is a garbage system. It’s absolutely awful to watch & goes against everything Manchester United should be about.

Ten Hag's issues became more apparent after that awful summer 23 transfer window. Granted, he wasn't helped by the ludicrous headaches involving Greenwood, Antony and Sancho but our transfers that summer didn't build on what was good about that previous season but seemed to make our weaknesses worse. Despite all that, he still managed 8th (nowhere near good enough but...) and an FA Cup win that saw us beat the scousers and city. That's probably (now anyway) the absolute minimum of what could be expected. Ultimately a sign of expectations dropping.

Ole seemed to be getting somewhere in his final full season but seemed to bottle it whenever there was something tangible on the line. In reality, we should have changed managers after that Europa final but we let him have a transfer window that on the face of it, was good, but turned out to be a disaster. We're still paying the price for some of those decisions. In that previous season though, the football we played was as good anything since Fergie bit again, he achieved the minimum (top 4).

On your second point, I'd sacrifice being exciting if it meant winning a few matches and maybe a trophy at the end of the season. Ultimately, we're just shit at everything. He is trying to implement something new but it's failing.

Above the manager, the club has a decision to make if we keep losing. Do they get rid and acknowledge that the experiment failed and get a medium term replacement in whilst wider issues off the pitch are solved.

Or do they back him, let him have the next three transfer windows and let the manager build his squad. High risk. High reward. If it works amazing, if it fails, we're potentially left with a squad built for 343 that a new boss will want to rip up immediately leaving in a worse position financially than we are now.

 

[Wolfbot]

Players and management.

Players' mentality is shite. They can play well against teams they're not expected to beat, e.g., Liverpool, Arsenal, City but then don't jhave the mentality against the other teams. Also, their athleticism is woeful. This comes down to management buying the wrong players. Very few, if any, have outstanding pace,strength or technical ability. It doesn't matter the system, they've proven to not be good in all of them. Then there's those with a terrible mentality.

Realistically we need to prioritise players who are technical and athletic, something we've not done for years.

The 'lots of players being technically deficient' line is a bit of a throwaway line I find, and isn't true for the most part. We have plenty players that are really quite good on the ball.

We do fall down significantly in terms of matching other teams physicality though, and above all this is where we lose most of out games. Plenty players either too slow or too easily shrugged off the ball, as a result we constantly lose out in sprints at the back and the midfield and attack lose too many 50/50s, or are bypassed too easily when we're supposed to be pressing. Was the same under Ten Hag.

Poor decision making and bad concentration lapses regularly throughout the team costs us a lot of goals, or good moves breaking down as well.

Relatively good technically ability on the ball won't get us far if the majority of players are deficient in the other areas, which are arguably more important. How many times have you seen a relatively poor side from a technical stand point get a result against a much better team through being fit, physical, and working really hard?

 

[Urescoredatanfield]

I have to agree with the Wolfbot analysis regarding fitness and physically competing with opposing teams. We can all bang on about Amorim and his system failing, he should do this, he should do that. But I'm not so sure about the "really quite good on the ball" and "good technically", as this "ability" is surely dependent on making the correct decisions (far too often with the majority of our players huge hesitancy hits their play). The inevitable breakdown often results in scampering about in a state of panic, and conceding territory, free kicks, even goals. I fear the significant priority of signing a "good technically" player is mental strength, being a United player demands huge strength of character (we are still perceived as a global football power...a prime scalp). Unless the player has this he will struggle, over the years we have had this "inner strength" player ...going back we had Stiles, Crerand, Law etc. Macari, Greenhoff, Buchan etc then the Ferguson era was awash with these players. All these thrived on match day, more so when the opposition were looked upon on as elite. The current Liverpool side has this strength and is allied to fitness, physical strength and a hard work ethic. We possibly have Maguire, alone, as mentally strong, Bruno, as captain, good grief, surely I don't need to explain his shortcomings. I wont ramble on about the numerous errors on view EVERY match day....a la Antony's miss v Southampton !!!!!

 

[DannyCAFC]

I see a lot of calls to go to 4-2-3-1 / 4-3-3 but United were just as bad or certainly very close to being as bad playing this way under ETH in his last 20-25 games.

As Carl Anka bluntly put it on the TOTD podcast, United have one of the worst constructed squads in history and there is no formation, no system that can provide an immediate fix for that.

 

[Lyng]

I see a lot of calls to go to 4-2-3-1 / 4-3-3 but United were just as bad or certainly very close to being as bad playing this way under ETH in his last 20-25 games.

As Carl Anka bluntly put it on the TOTD podcast, United have one of the worst constructed squads in history and there is no formation, no system that can provide an immediate fix for that.

Exactly this.

The decision was made to go for Amorim and thereby to switch formation. Given the squad that was always going to result in a transition period that would be rough. Especially when you make the switch in the middle of the season rather than in the summer.
The worst thing we could do now, is go back. We need to stick with it now and then make sure we build towards this system for the future, instead of kneejerk reacting and going to a different system again and again and thus elevating our squad issues.

 

[MadDogg]

The last season we played a consistent 4231 with traditional overlapping FBs we came 3rd in league, won a cup, another domestic final, and a European quarter. We were on a good trajectory.

The last 18 months under ETH was a completely different system - He tried to copy Pep. 4141, underlapping FBs, single midfield pivot, wide forwards hugging touchlines receiving balls into feet rather running in behind into the inside channels. high press rather than mid/low block. The systems were as different as the one we are trying to implement now. The squad we have does not have the technical or athletic ability to play either ETHs 2nd system, or Amorim's.

Last season, yes. This season though was back to a 4231, with the second midfielder actually playing as a midfielder instead of a #10 and Dalot staying wider rather than inverting into midfield. It's why our performances weren't quite as bad as they were last season, even though the results continued largely the same.

 

[cyril C]

Simple question as I can’t work out which seems to be the main problem right now between the players or the system that Amorim is hell bent on implementing in his 5-2-3/3-4-3 ?

The thing I’m most annoyed about is that when Ineos were coming in they said that they’d install a ‘best in class’ ‘footballing structure’ that would identify a style and tactical approach and the head coach would coach the squad in said style.

We’ve gone from 4-2-3-1 under Ole to 4-1-4-1 under ETH to 5-2-3/3-4-3 under Amorim and no set style or tactical approach put in place by our supposed footballing structure, even RVN during his brief run played a different style to ETH and Amorim.

I get Amorim hasn’t spent any money to bring in players he’d like but already he’s showing a serious amount of stubbornness in playing certain players in positions that they can’t play or players in different positions each week and refuses to change the tactics even when like today they weren’t working.

Brighton knew we would play 2 men in midfield so outnumbered us playing 3 men in midfield although Baleba could have played on his own and dominate our midfield, we have zero width as the two behind the striker are both 10’s and the wing backs are full backs so offer nothing offensively.

On the flip side though it’s clear that a lot of the players are simply not good enough and when the ones that are passable are off form the difference in quality is so big that subs hurt us more than helping us a lot of the time.

When you look at the core group that are passable to good enough in Maguire, Yoro, De Ligt, Martinez, Mazraoui, Mainoo, Ugarte, Fernandes and Diallo you see that’s half of a match day squad yet we’ve spent over half a billion in the last few years on recruitment.

Is it the players that are making us look so bad ? Is it the formation that Amorim is hell bent on installing which in his own words he will “play until the very end” ? I know Amorim said it would get worse before it gets better but it seems to be getting worse every game outside of the game raisers like Liverpool, Arsenal or City and if it continues getting worse you wonder if Amorim will even be properly back in the summer.

Passable? How did we concede the 1st goal? May be it was Coach's fault, telling Yoro to push forward and not bother to check 1 of the fastest winger in EPL.

It was schoolboy error, or even worse, a pub team error.

 

[davidmichael]

Passable? How did we concede the 1st goal? May be it was Coach's fault, telling Yoro to push forward and not bother to check 1 of the fastest winger in EPL.

It was schoolboy error, or even worse, a pub team error.

Yoro is a teenager and coming into the hardest league in football but it was actually De Ligt that stepped up for the first goal as Yoro played on the left of the three centre backs.

The problem with the three at the back is it needs the two wide centre backs to push out wide and push up into midfield but that requires pacey centre backs of which we only have Yoro or if he plays there Mazraoui, as I said though I do believe it’s 75-80% the players not being good enough.

 

[joedirt87]

It's largely on the players, but the tactics aren't helping. You don't have to be the worlds greatest manager to recognize that in some of these games you are being completely dominated in midfield with how you set the team up to play, and then do nothing tactically to change that.

 

[gaffs]

ETH won titles in Holland & took Ajax to the CL semis knocking out Madrid on the way.
Ole won titles in Norway & regularly beat Pep’s all conquering City team.

Their systems turned out to be garbage too. Any system that has a Manchester United team playing 5 defenders + a DM at home is a garbage system. It’s absolutely awful to watch & goes against everything Manchester United should be about.

Did ETH or Ole play the same "systems" in Holland / Norway as they did for United?

Was Ole playing counter attacking football with Molde? We know Ten Hag wasnt playing the same was at United than he did at Ajax.

 

[Wolfbot]

I have to agree with the Wolfbot analysis regarding fitness and physically competing with opposing teams. We can all bang on about Amorim and his system failing, he should do this, he should do that. But I'm not so sure about the "really quite good on the ball" and "good technically", as this "ability" is surely dependent on making the correct decisions (far too often with the majority of our players huge hesitancy hits their play). The inevitable breakdown often results in scampering about in a state of panic, and conceding territory, free kicks, even goals. I fear the significant priority of signing a "good technically" player is mental strength, being a United player demands huge strength of character (we are still perceived as a global football power...a prime scalp). Unless the player has this he will struggle, over the years we have had this "inner strength" player ...going back we had Stiles, Crerand, Law etc. Macari, Greenhoff, Buchan etc then the Ferguson era was awash with these players. All these thrived on match day, more so when the opposition were looked upon on as elite. The current Liverpool side has this strength and is allied to fitness, physical strength and a hard work ethic. We possibly have Maguire, alone, as mentally strong, Bruno, as captain, good grief, surely I don't need to explain his shortcomings. I wont ramble on about the numerous errors on view EVERY match day....a la Antony's miss v Southampton !!!!!

Yeah, I was on the fence about whether I should include the decision making as a qualifier for being a technically sound player.

In the end when I think about the likes of Bruno, Eriksen, Martinez, Maz, Casemiro, Mainoo, Dalot...even Ugarte, Maguire, Garnacho to an extent. I've seen them all make really good passes, show really nice control, or finish really well at times, so for me, they definitely have the capacity to be technically good players.

The same players can also play a wonder pass one minute and give away a three yard pass or run into traffic for no reason the next, so totally get your point about the decision making.

It's probably ultimately a lack of confidence that sees so many players unable to play consistently, and that lack of confidence probably stems from a few different things. It's a shame because I'd imagine most of them would play better if they moved clubs.

We sorely need to improve the physicality (and application) issue first in my opinion. You're never winning a game off football if you're being outrun and second to every loose ball regardless of how technically good the players are.

 

[Top_Bins]

It's not helping that we offer no threat from the left wing. We can't stretch teams until we get a wing back. It's negligent from the club to go into the season with shaw and malacia.

 

[Schmeichel=God]

Firstly… there is no doubt that the players are lacking in quality, athleticism, tactically flexibility, and effort.

Regardless though, the league position, both now, and the last 18 months under ETH falls mainly on the managers.

Like it or not, the make up of this squad is capable of playing one way.

Deep, compact 4231 out of possession, with attacks focused on quick counters. That is all they can do well.

ETH tried to play them in another system after year 1 which they simply weren’t capable of. He failed spectacularly.

Reuben is now finding out the same.

We are 5, 6, maybe 7 starters away from looking competent in this system, with a squad full of unsuitable players no one wants on long, bumper contracts.

Why not just play to our strengths for the remainder of the season, play some of these unwanted players into some form so someone actually might buy them, and then implement the changes needed for this system from a position of comparative strength in the summer??

The person speaking the most sense.

There's no points available now for spotting a problem before others see it. The problem is glaring. And there's definitely points available for making the right decision when the wood can be seen for trees.

We're compounding the current cumulative negative state by playing the way we're playing. Putting us at risk of an even longer term fix.

I know this is quite some statement. But if ever there was a time for a Mourinho approach. It is now.

 

[Boring]

Managers have come and gone but the type of players we have recruited has not changed - I can't think of one athletic technical player we have recruited?

Rooney, Ronaldo, Keane, Stam, Beckham, Ruud etc - these were atheltic and technical players - we are not recruiting the right profile of player.

 

[witchtrials]

I don't think he should throw every belief he holds about coaching out of the window and play whatever tactics these motley crew of players was bought for.

However, I think we ought to be able to expect him to demonstrate some level of versatility. He is supposed to be an astute tactical mind - I would hope that it's within his capabilities to find a balance between playing exactly as Sporting do vs. reverting to Oleball. Surely he doesn't need the perfect 11 players to play in the exact formation and perform the exact actions specified in order to send out a vaguely competitive team.

He ought to be able to find some compromise between his dream football that our squad isn't suited to vs. abandoning everything he knows. Surely he can tweak formations, tactical plans etc. so that the players are still making progress towards playing how he likes while taking account our players' very obvious limitations.

At the moment he's coming across as pathologically inflexible.

 

[NZT-One]

The person speaking the most sense.

There's no points available now for spotting a problem before others see it. The problem is glaring. And there's definitely points available for making the right decision when the wood can be seen for trees.

We're compounding the current cumulative negative state by playing the way we're playing. Putting us at risk of an even longer term fix.

I know this is quite some statement. But if ever there was a time for a Mourinho approach. It is now.

It really isn't. What are you afraid of? Do you really think we will go down? Thats BS in my eyes. Ruben is playing his system but he tries to play it fairly neutral in terms of more defensive or more attacking. If the results go a way where we are actually endangered, we can still revert back to deep line, only go for counters and be fine with 0:0 draws because thats completely independent on the starting formations. But doing this right now would be a complete waste of time. How much time do you guys want to wait until we finally confront the players with new systems and new approaches? What will be the issue next year? Maybe too many injuries? Or the "bad pre season" classic? Or that it is time "to build confidence so lets reverto back to the defensive stuff".
There is absolutely no point in going back right now. We are in the midfield of the table, easier fixtures are about to come, other teams are worse than us and we have a buffer. So the only reason is that some of you are so adamant that we get European football, right? Whats the point in playing conference league? EL? It is less preparation time for the league. Less time to regenerate. And for what? It is shortsighted. At some point, we have to stand the pain and walk through the fire. Next season, no matter how this one ends, we will have a lot of new players to bed in. A new system to bed in (something, that would benefit from starting it right now). It will be challenging anyways, I repeat, the next season will be just as challenging as this one - so let Amorim or whoever do what they think is the correct way forward, and feck the results.

We can't complain about the 10th rebuild when we never truly finish them because "change is needed but please, the results still have to be good". A Mourinho approach right now will show everybody we are desperate. Desperate and not having a clue what to fecking do. I think, this is way more of a warning sign for potential transfer targets than missing out on playing Thursdays in Bukarest or Braga.

 

[Teja]

It's not helping that we offer no threat from the left wing. We can't stretch teams until we get a wing back. It's negligent from the club to go into the season with shaw and malacia.

The assumption was we'd give Ten Hag another year and continue to play 4 ATB. At the beginning of the season we were somewhat optimistic that Shaw will still be useful and when he's not available, a mix of Mazraoui, Martinez and Dalot would cover that position. Yes the position won't be a strength but also wouldn't be a glaring weakness.

The switch to Amorim + the need for quality wing backs is what's causing us problems.

 

[witchtrials]

It really isn't. What are you afraid of?

Amorim losing the confidence of his players and the fans, failing week after week and becoming a laughing stock, making it impossible for him to continue in the long term. Because make no mistake, if he keeps losing week after week for much longer this is what will happen. You can counsel patience all you want but if you lose consistently at United you will be hounded out.

Also anyone who thinks we have struggled to recruit quality players up to now will be in for a shock about how bad it can get if we are trying to cut the wage bill while asking players to come to Manchester for a team that finished 15th and have been the object of constant ridicule.

 

[NZT-One]

Amorim losing the confidence of his players and the fans, failing week after week and becoming a laughing stock, making it impossible for him to continue in the long term. Because make no mistake, if he keeps losing week after week for much longer this is what will happen. You can counsel patience all you want but if you lose consistently at United you will be hounded out.

I thought we established that there isn't much in this squad anyway so why should we care about their feelings? I get your point, of course you'd want this to be good relationship with a group that trusts their leading figure. But most of those players simply lost all their credit.

We played very good against Liverpool, played good against Arsenal. As long as the players are up for the challenge, we aren't a bad team. A team that will go down or that will lose many games. The question is why aren't we up for it in so many games. And even if the only reason is him being the new guy, I happily believe him that he is ready - I doubt it for 66% of the squad though.

Also anyone who thinks we have struggled to recruit quality players up to now will be in for a shock about how bad it can get if we are trying to cut the wage bill while asking players to come to Manchester for a team that finished 15th and have been the object of constant ridicule.

Sure, because being part of a redemption story under a young charismatic coach who had his former team play great and successful football and higher ups that played part in Cities uprise is such a bad project to chip in. I guess you have a point, the factors you mention are valid and yes, most likely they will effect the decisions of players who have the opportunity to chose. But thats when you go from Plan A to Plan B and bring in a player who really wants to be here. May not be the most talented player in the world, not the one every top club tries to get. But looking at where we are - we don't need the best of the best. Really good with a good mentality and hunger is more than good enough.

 

[witchtrials]

I thought we established that there isn't much in this squad anyway so why should we care about their feelings? I get your point, of course you'd want this to be good relationship with a group that trusts their leading figure. But most of those players simply lost all their credit.

Like it or not we are not going to change our entire squad in the summer. So even in the land of milk and honey that lies beyond the famous "full preseason" 75% of the players are going to be the same as the ones now being called the worst in our history, and whose confidence is being sapped and who are entrenching a habit of losing.

We played very good against Liverpool, played good against Arsenal. As long as the players are up for the challenge, we aren't a bad team. A team that will go down or that will lose many games. The question is why aren't we up for it in so many games.

How much of that difference is because of "being up for it" though? Because the significant difference between those games and most of our others is that Liverpool and Arsenal will come on to us and give us loads of space to play on the counter. The tactical lie of the land is very different in these games and more suited to our squad. I think this is a big part of the contrast, not just vibes.

Sure, because being part of a redemption story under a young charismatic coach who had his former team play great and successful football and higher ups that played part in Cities uprise is such a bad project to chip in.

Young players looking to make the next step up in their careers are going to pay attention to what Amorim has been like actually at United. When they are approached, if Amorim's United record is dogshit and he is a daily figure of ridicule in the press, potential targets are not going to be thinking "Yeah, but he had a very impressive record away at Braga". As for being attracted by ex-City senior management - I would suspect anyone impressed by City's football probably fancies playing under Guardiola rather than dreaming of Wilcoxball.

I guess you have a point, the factors you mention are valid and yes, most likely they will effect the decisions of players who have the opportunity to chose. But thats when you go from Plan A to Plan B and bring in a player who really wants to be here. May not be the most talented player in the world, not the one every top club tries to get. But looking at where we are - we don't need the best of the best. Really good with a good mentality and hunger is more than good enough.

Sure, though it may be less a case of Plan B and more of Plan L, M or N. If we finish 14th people need to stop imagining that our front line is going to be replenished by Gyökeres - he is not moving to a side in the bottom third of the PL - and think more along the lines of Calvert-Lewin.

 

[thisisnottaken1]

Like it or not we are not going to change our entire squad in the summer. So even in the land of milk and honey that lies beyond the famous "full preseason" 75% of the players are going to be the same as the ones now being called the worst in our history, and whose confidence is being sapped and who are entrenching a habit of losing.



How much of that difference is because of "being up for it" though? Because the significant difference between those games and most of our others is that Liverpool and Arsenal will come on to us and give us loads of space to play on the counter. The tactical lie of the land is very different in these games and more suited to our squad. I think this is a big part of the contrast, not just vibes.



Young players looking to make the next step up in their careers are going to pay attention to what Amorim has been like actually at United. When they are approached, if Amorim's United record is dogshit and he is a daily figure of ridicule in the press, potential targets are not going to be thinking "Yeah, but he had a very impressive record away at Braga". As for being attracted by ex-City senior management - I would suspect anyone impressed by City's football probably fancies playing under Guardiola rather than dreaming of Wilcoxball.



Sure, though it may be less a case of Plan B and more of Plan L, M or N. If we finish 14th people need to stop imagining that our front line is going to be replenished by Gyökeres - he is not moving to a side in the bottom third of the PL - and think more along the lines of Calvert-Lewin.

And unfortunately, if we get mediocre players like Calvert-Lewin, the rot will set in even more, we’ll be further entrenched as a mid-table club, and even further from success.

 

[Gordon'sHill]

And unfortunately, if we get mediocre players like Calvert-Lewin, the rot will set in even more, we’ll be further entrenched as a mid-table club, and even further from success.

It can be both, not either or. I posted elsewhere about how rarely a back 3 is used in elite football, either in European competitions or PL, and how easily its exposed unless really well drilled. I fear appointing a system based manager is going to end badly, he's not come up against the demands of PL before and it may do him. Plus we are not replacing half the squad given our financial position, so he needs to make something work. Could be another false down, with INEOIS just the latest clown owners.