The main current problem, players or formation ?

Shaw's Shank Redemption said:
Tactics.

Onana
De Ligt - Maguire -Yoro
Mazroui - Ugarte - Mainoo- Dalot
Amad - Bruno
Zirkzee
​
That is 8 defensive players in a first 11.

Is it surprising we cant score a goal? With who exactly? 3 players upfront? Who is creating the chances for them?
​
We are not bloody Sporting Lisbon trying to beat Man City in the CL - we are United a team that should be attacking the teams rather than playing 8 defensive players against teams like Brighton and Southampton :lol:

Ive got no problem with the formation but why hasnt he given a chance for Garnacho at wingback or even Antony? Why isnt Bruno Fernandes playing deeper with Ugarte so we can get an extra attacking winger in the front line.

Its enfuriating to watch having to see such defensive performances over and over again just for Amad to save our arse at the 80th minuite when Amorim gets scared and subs on all of his attacking players.
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How was our goal scoring last season?
 
The fact the players were 13th, playing for another manager in another formation should tell you all you need to know.

Another top club would recruit the right players ASAP and get to deadwood. Risking PSR if need be... but we aren't a serious football club, we're just a business to provide a longterm return and dividend to the ownership.
 
sammyhol said:
-————onana————
Maz-Deligt-Licha-dalot
——Mainoo-Ugarte——-
—Amad-Bruno-Garna—
————Zirkzee———-

Play deep and compact out of possession to protect the lack of athleticism in central areas (as we did in ETH season 1)

Traditional overlapping FBs… no inverted nonsense, to create 1 on 1 overloads (as we did in ETH season 1)

Play on the break utilising Zirkzee mainly for hold up to play balls back to Bruno so he can release the inside/wide forwards in behind from his free role at 10 (as we did in ETH season 1)…

rashford and Cas probs even better suited than Garna and Mainoo, but either way has square pegs in square holes.

All this rubbish about no way of getting tune out of the squad… it ain’t winning the league, but 3 years ago we played this way and did more than alright. It would be infinitely better than this and what ETH was trying to do for his last year or so.
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The same problems would persist with this setup.

1) No attacking down the left, due to Dalot being played there.
2) Very little attacking quality from Mazraoui on the right.
3) No quality up front, whether it's Zirkzee or Højlund.
4) Super easy midfield to dominate. Only Ugarte really providing cover. Mainoo has no mobility.
5) Extra vulnerability to set pieces with only one CB strong in the air.

Can't see this being any better. The reasons we did relatively well in ETH's first season was mainly down to players. Casemiro and Eriksen still had the legs and formed an effective midfield until Eriksen got injured. Shaw was available for most of the season. Martinez pre-injury performed really well. Rashford got us a lot of goals out of nothing.
 
The fundamental problem is the players, we’ve recruited dreadfully for years and can’t offload the ones we don’t want. The formation is just a distraction, there used to be thread on this forum asking why aren’t we playing 3 at the back when we were shit last season.

We simply don’t have very good squad, very few are suited to the Premier League as it is today. I’ve seen of bringing Iraola but I bet he’d rather have more of Bournemouth’s players than ours given how he likes to play.
 
Mike Smalling said:
The same problems would persist with this setup.

1) No attacking down the left, due to Dalot being played there.
2) Very little attacking quality from Mazraoui on the right.
3) No quality up front, whether it's Zirkzee or Højlund.
4) Super easy midfield to dominate. Only Ugarte really providing cover. Mainoo has no mobility.
5) Extra vulnerability to set pieces with only one CB strong in the air.

Can't see this being any better. The reasons we did relatively well in ETH's first season was mainly down to players. Casemiro and Eriksen still had the legs and formed an effective midfield until Eriksen got injured. Shaw was available for most of the season. Martinez pre-injury performed really well. Rashford got us a lot of goals out of nothing.
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Dalot aside, most of those things can be catered for. The shape hides the athleticism issues.

If you want a natural LB play Malacia and move Dalot to the right.

Cas and eriksen didn’t have legs… they didn’t need them due to the shape, and we now have Mainoo and Ugarte as options.

Rashford scored lots of goals cos the system catered to his strengths.

And I’m not saying we would be as good as 3 years ago. But it would be infinitely better than this.
 
Sanchez7 said:
The system isn't the main problem but that doesn't mean Amorim is doing the right thing by insisting with it. Top players can easily adopt to most systems but we have two glaring issues in our squad - 1) Technical ability 2) Athleticism. We are unable to put more than 5 passes together in the opponent's half before losing the ball and lose most 50-50s due to lack of physicality.

The only style of play we are capable of sitting deep, giving the ball to Bruno to find either Rashford or Garnacho in behind but with Rashford out of favour, two terrible number 9s, we are pretty much stuck in a position where we can't score goals and/or defend. That is on Amorim as it is his job to get the best out of the players (maybe that's why DOF Dan Ashworth fell out because he recognised the issue with Amorim's system and our players suitiabiltiy to it)

Having said that, if we can improve recruitment and pull off two signings that actually perform better than expected (which hasn't happened in 10yrs), we will look like a different team. Years of mismanagement has caught up and there is no easy fix.
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Spot on.
 
Mike Smalling said:
The same problems would persist with this setup.

1) No attacking down the left, due to Dalot being played there.
2) Very little attacking quality from Mazraoui on the right.
3) No quality up front, whether it's Zirkzee or Højlund.
4) Super easy midfield to dominate. Only Ugarte really providing cover. Mainoo has no mobility.
5) Extra vulnerability to set pieces with only one CB strong in the air.

Can't see this being any better. The reasons we did relatively well in ETH's first season was mainly down to players. Casemiro and Eriksen still had the legs and formed an effective midfield until Eriksen got injured. Shaw was available for most of the season. Martinez pre-injury performed really well. Rashford got us a lot of goals out of nothing.
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Not to mention we over performed our underlying stats by some distance in Ten Hag's first season as well , situation seemed better than it actually was and post Carabao Cup we were mostly dire to put it mildly .
 
Players mentality is a huge factor. Against Arsenal and Liverpool you can tell the players fear the opposition and know they need to fight for everything.

But then against Southampton and Brighton it's just an all round easier match and the intensity and importance is nowhere to be seen.

Looking at the table in the last 6 games in the league only 2 teams have won more than 3 games in a row. Newcastle and Forest. Winning games in this league is difficult!

At 2-1 today United should of reminded themselves where they are in the table and scrapped for a 2-2 draw.

United won't climb the table until they can accept they are a mid-table team and need to fight every team for even a point.
 
Formation.
For Amorims formation to work we need 6 players that we aren’t getting. So change the formation since we can’t change half the team.Dare I say, but no manager has ever gotten his dream team, even champions are busy in the next transfer window. We need 6 in this current side. Next year we will add to that number because more will need to be replaced.
 
sammyhol said:
-————onana————
Maz-Deligt-Licha-dalot
——Mainoo-Ugarte——-
—Amad-Bruno-Garna—
————Zirkzee———-

Play deep and compact out of possession to protect the lack of athleticism in central areas (as we did in ETH season 1)

Traditional overlapping FBs… no inverted nonsense, to create 1 on 1 overloads (as we did in ETH season 1)

Play on the break utilising Zirkzee mainly for hold up to play balls back to Bruno so he can release the inside/wide forwards in behind from his free role at 10 (as we did in ETH season 1)…

rashford and Cas probs even better suited than Garna and Mainoo, but either way has square pegs in square holes.

All this rubbish about no way of getting tune out of the squad… it ain’t winning the league, but 3 years ago we played this way and did more than alright. It would be infinitely better than this and what ETH was trying to do for his last year or so.
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Essentially play the same always done, then try to move away from it because it has a low ceiling, then revert back to it once we realise the players can’t do it. Rinse and repeat.

I don’t think the idea is to get a tune out of these players it’s to find out who can be useful moving forward, unfortunately the answer is not many. If we just stick to what we’ve always done we’ll retain players who aren’t the biggest problem or who might get better and you don’t know how useful new signings are. Short term it’s maybe better but beyond that it’s pointless.

ETH abandoned his plans after a couple of games and never reverted back, LVG went super cautious after we were thumped by Leicester. Ole got sacked after couple of years of pragmatism as soon as he tried something better.
 
Wing Attack Plan R said:
How many games did we have zero shots on target last season?
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Although we barely had any games without a shot on target last season, we were shockingly toothless in attack and grossly impotent as a defense. 5 games with a mere one shot on target, (all those being useless long punts). On top of this, at least 30 times, opponents enjoyed taking over 15+ shots a game against us the entire season. It was really devastating how open we were last season and frankly pointless comparing it with the current situation(which is equally abysmal if not more).
 
Roboc7 said:
Essentially play the same always done, then try to move away from it because it has a low ceiling, then revert back to it once we realise the players can’t do it. Rinse and repeat.

I don’t think the idea is to get a tune out of these players it’s to find out who can be useful moving forward, unfortunately the answer is not many. If we just stick to what we’ve always done we’ll retain players who aren’t the biggest problem or who might get better and you don’t know how useful new signings are. Short term it’s maybe better but beyond that it’s pointless.

ETH abandoned his plans after a couple of games and never reverted back, LVG went super cautious after we were thumped by Leicester. Ole got sacked after couple of years of pragmatism as soon as he tried something better.
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Surely evolution not revolution would have been better.

ETH just did a delayed revolution at the end of his first pragmatic season. The tactical shift between season 1 and 2 was far too drastic. Had the Mount signing been the energetic DM/CM we all wanted to allow Cas and Eriksen to be rotated, we had every chance to have kicked on a bit again with season 1 tactics, to have stayed in the CL, and to have kept building the squad, eventually moving to a more possession based style of play.

Revolution is where we fell down. We signed terribly at the end of ETH season 1 to implement a system doomed to fail.

As for the system “ceiling”… Forest are currently doing exactly what we did 3 years ago with a far worse squad. They are joint 2nd on points.
 
Can’t be playing two defenders as wingbacks if this is going to work
 
Sanchez7 said:
The system isn't the main problem but that doesn't mean Amorim is doing the right thing by insisting with it. Top players can easily adopt to most systems but we have two glaring issues in our squad - 1) Technical ability 2) Athleticism. We are unable to put more than 5 passes together in the opponent's half before losing the ball and lose most 50-50s due to lack of physicality.

The only style of play we are capable of sitting deep, giving the ball to Bruno to find either Rashford or Garnacho in behind but with Rashford out of favour, two terrible number 9s, we are pretty much stuck in a position where we can't score goals and/or defend. That is on Amorim as it is his job to get the best out of the players (maybe that's why DOF Dan Ashworth fell out because he recognised the issue with Amorim's system and our players suitiabiltiy to it)

Having said that, if we can improve recruitment and pull off two signings that actually perform better than expected (which hasn't happened in 10yrs), we will look like a different team. Years of mismanagement has caught up and there is no easy fix.
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Surely amorim must realise by now that this lot are average at best(exe ahmed bruno) and they will never adapt. Maybe limp along till the end of season with 442 and then get players who can
 
Think we badly need to implement a proper 4-3-3 formation with a midfield trio to give proper balance to the team. Bruno LCM/Ugarte CM/Mainoo RCM. LW Garancho/RW Diallo/CF Hojlund. Still think our midfield is our biggest weakness and no-where near powerful enough. We need better players than Garnacho and Hojlund in the starting 11 as well.

This 3-4-3 ain't the united way and never will be. We are not a possession side but are better than we are showing.
 
It's the tactics.. We play 5-2-3 and he expect Zirkzee, Amad and Bruno to be able to perform in offence without any other help against the other teams 7 players?

He need to change it or else he will be fired in february with us being in the relegation zone..
 
Has to be the players. When you lack so many fundamental components and have failed in different formations and managers, it can't be anything else.
 
Players. More than half of them are simply not good enough. The rest are either past their prime or too green to be top players.
We can blame Amorim all we want, but give this lot to Guardiola, Klopp, Zidane, Simeone, Ancelotti (insert name of favorite manager) and they wouldn't get much more out of them either.
 
Maybe we could set up to play for the clean sheet every game, and hope for something random up front.

GK
Mazraoui - De Ligt - Maguire - Dalot
Ugarte - Casemiro - Collyer
Diallo - Højlund - Bruno
​
I don't see this setup scoring many goals, but that's secondary. If we keep enough clean sheets in the rest of the games, we stay up.
 
Shaw's Shank Redemption said:
Tactics.

Onana
De Ligt - Maguire -Yoro
Mazroui - Ugarte - Mainoo- Dalot
Amad - Bruno
Zirkzee
​
That is 8 defensive players in a first 11.

Is it surprising we cant score a goal? With who exactly? 3 players upfront? Who is creating the chances for them?
Click to expand...

Spot on, Amorim's team selection has lost United a few fixtures without doubt because it's fine margins. Fixtures like Bournemouth / Newcastle are different as those are examples of the opposition outclassing the team but there have been poor results which in hindsight likely would have been salvageable with identifying the correct player profiles for specific positions.

The 3-4-2-1 is by structure a relatively defensive formation on its own. There's two holding midfielders who can't join the attack due to the vulnerability of being carved through the middle and then only the fullbacks provide support beyond the midfield.

So at best it's 5 attackers with the the majority of the threat coming from the width of the team. Now when you concede that Amorim is persisting with defensively minded individuals at wingback, it means there's only 3 attacking outlets: the two 10's and the striker. Football is a numbers game and the modern approach is heavily dependent on overloads it's how space is created.

Now to make matters even worse, when the midfield is incapable of breaking the lines with passes (Mainoo / Ugarte) it shoehorns the striker into playing with their back to goal. The striker is therefore basically playing as a glorified number 10, they are constantly bringing the ball into play, never running into the opposition box but stylistically resembling a false 9. So that dilemma leaves United with 2 attackers who offer an actual threat.

So while that focuses on the players, it does demonstrate the lack of fluidity in Amorim's approach from a tactical perspective. It's not that he has to change the system but rotate the personnel in some of the positions and make slight adjustments.
 
So Amorim is going to continue playing with tactics that don't suit players that he won't want after next summer. Makes sense, good management
 
80% players. 20% tactical rigidity. Players are dogshit yes but at the same time there is a system out there that can accentuate their best qualities and it is Amorim's job to find that system and use it. When he has the players, then he can impose his system without ever changing.
 
The quoted posted below of mine is after the recent game against Liverpool. And like I mentioned then, the issue is very clearly that this group of players have a problem when the onus is on them to open up the opponent in possession which inevitably leaves spaces on the counter. This team plays well in a compact lower block as the underdog and has shown it can perform when waiting for the game. But this team struggles when it has to to force the issue and take the game to the opponent which leaves bigger spaces for the players at the back (rest defense) to contain or control.

This is the fundamental problem in the team which imo can be rectified by bringing in the correct profile of players to raise the physical, athletic and technical qualities within the team. Just 3 players with the requisite attributes would make a big difference imo. The midfield requires at least one player (I would want two) who is a strong dueller across the ground whilst also having a good level of vertical passes without compromising on ball retention. The midfield composition currently is just not good enough to control spaces or control games hence the backline is overly burdened to progress play and our build up suffers.

I would personally target Ousmane Diomande at CB and bring in a couple of midfielders like Baleba and Angelo Stiller. The deeper midfield has to be of a high quality if we want to take big strides forward. The midfield currently isn't good enough as a collective and the aforementioned players potentially raise the levels physically and technically to a level where we should be at.



Adnan said:
The players are not as bad some on here think. Our tactics were to stay compact and exploit the space Liverpool were inevitably going leave in behind especially in wide areas. And we took advantage of that and created many problems for Liverpool and you don't create problems for a strong team like Liverpool by having a weak attack.

The issue Amorim needs to solve is that when we play teams where the onus is on us to take the game to them and create space for opportunities, when they (the opponent) are sitting in a compact block is how we're going to impose our game on them. Liverpool kept on attacking throughout the game today and for a number of years now we have shown that we can get results against the best teams by playing more conservatively and keeping it tight to then expoilt the space in-behind. Players like Fred, McTominay and AWB played well in that type of game state but to take the next step we need to become more consistent at beating the so called lesser teams when the onus will be on us to take the game to them.

When you take the game to the opposition then things like pace and athleticism become a factor because you're leaving spaces for the opponent to exploit due to the high volume of players committed into the opponents half.
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sammyhol said:
Surely evolution not revolution would have been better.

ETH just did a delayed revolution at the end of his first pragmatic season. The tactical shift between season 1 and 2 was far too drastic. Had the Mount signing been the energetic DM/CM we all wanted to allow Cas and Eriksen to be rotated, we had every chance to have kicked on a bit again with season 1 tactics, to have stayed in the CL, and to have kept building the squad, eventually moving to a more possession based style of play.

Revolution is where we fell down. We signed terribly at the end of ETH season 1 to implement a system doomed to fail.

As for the system “ceiling”… Forest are currently doing exactly what we did 3 years ago with a far worse squad. They are joint 2nd on points.
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There is a lower ceiling, you get exceptions like Forest and Leicester but it’s not sustainable year after year.

Evolution or pragmatism are most likely safer options in the immediate term. But beyond that it’s a disadvantage we need to persist and if it fails with this manger the next one picks up the baton.

This is the culmination of years and years of bad recruitment, that is our biggest issue it dwarfs the formation in comparison.
 
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It’s the players, if they can go to Anfield and play the way they did then all these embarrassing home defeats shouldn’t happen.

You can acknowledge that we probably don’t quite have the perfect players for this system, at wing back in particular.
But this team have been performing at this horrific level for well over 18 months.

This season under ETH we played a different system. We have 0.22 more points under ETH iirc.
But then look at fixture difficulty. Amorim has gone to Emirates, Anfield and city. He’s had to face Brighton, Bournemouth and Newcastle at home. Brighton and Bournemouth not winning at old Trafford would be a shock…

So I’m not seeing anything different statistically that suggests we’d be better with a 433 variant: very marginal.

Let’s make it very clear this is a rotten group of players.
An extremely unathletic group of complete chancers with piss poor mentality, with zero ramifications for every single embarrassing performance they put out.
 
Dannn411 said:
80% players. 20% tactical rigidity. Players are dogshit yes but at the same time there is a system out there that can accentuate their best qualities and it is Amorim's job to find that system and use it. When he has the players, then he can impose his system without ever changing.
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This, anyone saying 100% either way is not looking at the big picture
 
I suspect it's down to how poor our players are rather than the system but we look so slow attacking in this formation.

All too often it seems one player will break free Forty yards out and there will be at the most one other player anywhere near the box
 
Players.

Not going to entertain anything that absolves them of any kind of blame.

I'm tired of watching us semi control games without actually creating much just for someone to have a brain fart which leads to the opposition scoring.

Mentally weak, don't have the stomach for the fight, cannot concentrate for a full game and some how manage to keep out-lasting managers. It is on them.

We've played all kinds of systems and they all continue to fail.

If they could do the bare minimum expected of them we would be in contention for some kind of European place - The level of player we have should not be anywhere near where they are in the league.
 
Reasons for the decline in the club and team have been obvious for a while

Ownerships lack of interest in results and happy to let the club slide into despair while continuing to pillage dividends and no real investment
Woodward inability to provide any football related knowledge Ina crucial position, crazy extensions and wages to support the balance sheet not the clubs performance
Transfers business and scouting failures, coupled with ETHs disastrous focus on Dutch players whose speed and toughness are not suited to the EPL
Could go on but seriously how the club managed to get any Champions League qualification is amazing, need to allow a restructure and reset and Amorim is hopefully the man to undertake it.

The disaster of the hooray Henry’s in the FA hierarchy to allow the questionable structure that the Glazers used to take over a club like Man Utd is probably the main reason for the slow disintegration of the club, their hiring policies of senior club management and failure to police the club as they spent their energies on the NFL team said it all.
 
The players were rubbish in a different system. The issue now is the players are rubbish and they also don't fit the system.
 
Players.
They were brain dead under EtH which is being compounded by the change in tactics.
 
Morale is terrible, i think. Perhaps telling your workforce that they are all disposable is not the best way to get them to perform for you. (I know, they were already bad, but I can't imagine that helped).
 
Players. Mainly because we don’t have true wing backs to play the Amorim system and our options up front are pretty mediocre at best.

27 year old Rashford should be at his peak, our talismanic attacker and a captain figure, but instead he has played with the demeanour of a peaked seasoned winner in his late 30s and clearly just doing it for the pay check. Hojlund is still raw that he should be an understudy. Zirkzee has his moments of creativity to be one of the No.10s but lacks a finishing edge to be a striker.
 
Players. We don’t have decent centre forward, and we don’t have the players to play them in even if we did. On the rare occasions that our CF does get played in they’re not in the right place or they balloon it somewhere into the stands .

Formation wise, every team knows how we’re gonna set up and they adjust accordingly. We have no plan B.
 
Scriblerus said:
Morale is terrible, i think. Perhaps telling your workforce that they are all disposable is not the best way to get them to perform for you. (I know, they were already bad, but I can't imagine that helped).
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Morale shouldn’t be terrible though after beating City, decent result against league leaders away. Then Arsenal. They should be flying .
 
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