The main current problem, players or formation ?

caid said:
Formation doesn't matter and 352 variations open up a lot of decent options in the manager market.
Not scoring goals is our biggest problem. I think you bring a 20 goal a season striker in and we immediately jump up to top 4 side. Basically swap Watkins or Isak for Hojlund and the respective teams would swap positions imo.
I'd look at the current starters as the survivors of our most recent cull which is a thin squad with not enough attacking options. Our options on the wing have largely been too conservative.
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Agree we need more goals.

But out current set up is so defensive - it doesn't matter who plays as ST. We don't offer any service to our Striker.

We basically play a back 5 with 2 holding midfielders. We don't pass the ball forward with enough pace or accuracy to the ST, yet alone support him.

Watkins/Isak/Haaland would barely touch the ball with our style of play. Hojlund is the scapegoat for our slow bowing sideways defensive football. It's so hard to watch
 
Players. TH didnt play any formation other than to appease the players and they still played shit.
 
Craig Ward said:
Agree we need more goals.

But out current set up is so defensive - it doesn't matter who plays as ST. We don't offer any service to our Striker.

We basically play a back 5 with 2 holding midfielders. We don't pass the ball forward with enough pace or accuracy to the ST, yet alone support him.

Watkins/Isak/Haaland would barely touch the ball with our style of play. Hojlund is the scapegoat for our slow bowing sideways defensive football. It's so hard to watch
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As compared to before Amorim arrived, when Hojlund was getting abundant chances?

The inability to create for our CF was a complaint all last season too, which again points to the players rather than anything Amorim is doing.
 
sullydnl said:
As compared to before Amorim arrived, when Hojlund was getting abundant chances?

The inability to create for our CF was a complaint all last season too, which again points to the players rather than anything Amorim is doing.
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Amorin picks the team. Amorin dictates style of play.

I think our pool of players is poor, but Amorin has to be held accountable also.

5 defenders - 2 holders. And no urgency to pass the ball forward. Grim
 
As others have already said, its a bit of both. Whilst its clear we lack quality players, especially upfront, the formation exacerbates the problem. Here are my observations so far with the 5-2-2-1 formation:

1. The 3 CB's dont work well, as this formation requires one of the CBs to push forward (usually Martinez) which leaves huge gaps at the back and Maguire isnt quick enough to cover. A simple long ball and the opposition is through on goal.

2. The WBs basically need to be wingers in this formation as it requires them to support the attack. This is different from a fullback supporting a winger in the traditional 4-3-3 or even 4-4-2 formations where the fullback is often overlapping the winger, therefore has more space to run into. In Amorims system, the WB has to beat a man consistently. Neither Dalot or Mazraoui are wingers so its an unfair ask of them. (I know Dalot did this well against liverpool but he was up against Trent).

3. With just 2 midfielders, they need to be strong and good runners with the ball. Neither Mainoo nor Ugarte are. Think Morgan Rogers, Moussa Dembele, etc. Thats the profile of midfielder we need.

4. Attack. This formation leaves just 3 attackers to try and break down and opposition defense. It's no wonder we struggle to score goals. Once again, an unfair ask on the attackers.


This is not an attack on Amorim or a 'Amorim out' post, before any posters start calling me all the names under the sun. Just observations that i've seen from his games in charge so far!
 
caid said:
Formation doesn't matter and 352 variations open up a lot of decent options in the manager market.
Not scoring goals is our biggest problem. I think you bring a 20 goal a season striker in and we immediately jump up to top 4 side. Basically swap Watkins or Isak for Hojlund and the respective teams would swap positions imo.
I'd look at the current starters as the survivors of our most recent cull which is a thin squad with not enough attacking options. Our options on the wing have largely been too conservative.
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Think this is abit too reductionist and to be honest you setting any striker we get up to fail. Unless we massively improve our chance creation and control over games I guarantee you a striker will at most paper over some cracks.
 
The answer is quite simple to be honest, and if you're choosing to shirk a decent sized portion of the blame onto Ruben then I'm afraid that you are a part of the problem with this club, and you are actively contributing to the perpetual cycle of poor attitude that has reeked the club out for the past decade. The fault lies with the players, simple.

I strongly suggest that some of you take off the tinted glasses for just a moment and judge our players on their technical 'abilities' and how they carry out (or attempt to) the basics of football. 80%+ of them struggle to carry out a simple 6 yard pass a majority of the time. The Leicester game showed this on many occasions with Amad running down the wing and producing the most lacklustre 1-2 attempt with Mainoo, with both of them failing to find each other in tight spaces MULTIPLE times. It's fine for it to happen the once, but this happened 3/4/5 times... and Amad has been one of better players of late, and that's my point.

The squad overall is NOT good enough. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Out of the teams above us in the league, I'd have every single SQUAD of players other than Palace. If you take off the tinted glasses, you'll see it too. If you don't want to see it, that's fine, we're all entitled to opinions, but just know that this sub standard of football will not improve until the fans accept that the players are not good enough bar Bruno, Ugarte, MdL & Mazra.

Ruben picks the formation, the line-up, playstyle, tactics, instructions etc but he isn't the person that's physically tasked with carrying them out is he? The players are, and they can't do it because they lack the ability to do so. Other than the players I've mentioned above, the rest of our team would not get into the Villa squad for example, or Fulham, Newcastle, Brighton.... it's endless.

The clear out began last summer and is continuing to do so with Rashford, Sancho, Malacia & Antony all on their way out, so the baby steps have started, but we have a LONG way to go, so we need to buckle up, take off the tinted glasses, and get rid of the Player FC mentality that is so strong in this fan base, so we can return to our former glory days.
 
kanobbk said:
The squad overall is NOT good enough. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Out of the teams above us in the league, I'd have every single SQUAD of players other than Palace. If you take off the tinted glasses, you'll see it too.
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Would Elanga be included?
 
redshaw said:
Would Elanga be included?
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Unsure if you're trying to be clever or sarcastic, but yes, yes he would.

Before your next question is "Would Sancho be included?" then it's clearly a no and you're purposely being facetious.

If you're defending the squad of players that are currently 13th and finished 8th last year, then you do you. We'll instead sack another manager and continue to be Player FC I guess?
 
The main problems are:

The playing staff - they are very poor by PL standards, due to years of mismanagement.

Club ethos - this has been 'the work never starts' for years now, lazy players getting huge wages and kicking up a fuss/leaking to the press if they don't get their way.

Finances - again, years of mismanagement have led to a financial crisis where we cannot just replace the players we're burdened with.

Finally, the formation and tactics are playing a part, but this is because we chose to bring in a manager who plays a specific style and formation which we do not have the playing staff to play. This was something the club were aware of, but decided was worth the risk.
 
The players, fitness, work rate, attitude, physicality and speed

We are a small, physically weak team

We are so slow to do anything, Maquire at the back takes 5 touches every time he gets the ball, and we are willing to hang our hopes on Mainoo who lacks any intensity 4 games out of every 5, problem is it only takes a couple of players who are slow, overly cautious, not progressive and everything else falls down, it cripples our ability to break lines and attack.
 
kanobbk said:
Unsure if you're trying to be clever or sarcastic, but yes, yes he would.

Before your next question is "Would Sancho be included?" then it's clearly a no and you're purposely being facetious.

If you're defending the squad of players that are currently 13th and finished 8th last year, then you do you. We'll instead sack another manager and continue to be Player FC I guess?
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Not trying anything.

Just seemed like your comment was a bit over the top and can't help but feel if Elanga was still here he'd be in the same bin as the rest and not singled out as one of your keeps.
 
redshaw said:
Not trying anything.

Just seemed like your comment was a bit over the top and can't help but feel if Elanga was still here he'd be in the same bin as the rest and not singled out as one of your keeps.
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But Elanga is performing in a side that was battling relegation last season and Forest haven't exactly overhauled their team have they? Elanga was shown the door by Erik as he preferred Antony, Rashford and Martial. Are you forgetting this? It's the definition of football eritage, in the words of Mou. And look at those players that Erik favoured, and WHERE they play, IF they play. Comical.

Elanga this season in all comps = 3 goals, 8 assists, 11 GA.

Antony = 2 GA
Martial = 8 GA (For AEK Athens..)
Rashford = 8 GA

Football.. eritage.
 
We have a bunch of midfielders who seem to lack the awareness to create space. Rather than giving the CB's a more open target in the middle of the field, our midfielders seem to prefer to close down the space between themselves and the ball-holding CB. The result is that they usually have two defenders pinching in on them while the ball comes to them, their speed TOWARD the incoming pass increasing the relative speed of the ball, and all they can do is ping it right back at high force to the CB, who might or might not be able to control it if it even comes back directly to them. Now, the CB should have written them off for all of that before attempting the pass, but the midfielders do this so many times a game it drives me nuts.

(Caveat: If the wingers would cut into space behind all that while it was going on, the CB could then pop the ball over to them, but our wingers seldom, if ever, cut into the middle of the field like that.)

One of the reasons Onana has digressed is that our players have no urgency transitioning to an attack when he gets the ball. Last season, you could see the frustration in his face when he got the ball and had no one to send it to. This season, he's given up on them and just hoofs it like De Gea used to do. Or he rolls it to a CB after everyone has cleared back out and the midfielders cozy up to their defenders. See above.

In general, our midfielders lack awareness of what the front line is doing, and when they do see, they lack the ability to make a midrange pass to the correct side of the forwards making the runs. It amazes me how consistently the defenders intercept our passes over their back line.

Our players don't anticipate - they react. And that has been a problem for years through many coaches.
 
kanobbk said:
But Elanga is performing in a side that was battling relegation last season and Forest haven't exactly overhauled their team have they? Elanga was shown the door by Erik as he preferred Antony, Rashford and Martial. Are you forgetting this? It's the definition of football eritage, in the words of Mou. And look at those players that Erik favoured, and WHERE they play, IF they play. Comical.

Elanga this season in all comps = 3 goals, 8 assists, 11 GA.

Antony = 2 GA
Martial = 8 GA (For AEK Athens..)
Rashford = 8 GA

Football.. eritage.
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And it's worth noting that in the dumpster fire that was the second half of the 2021-22 season, Elanga was one of a very few who could hold his head up. I'd absolutely have him in this team.
 
It’s a combination of both.

one massive gripe is the poor quality of passing. Too many passes give the receiver too much to do - either having to take a bad ball or one where they have to break stride or move back. This is a massive issue as it allows the opposition to reshape not to mention turning possession back over.

Football IQ and general common sense - don’t force a pass that is not on, too many times the ball is fired into a player who is outnumbered and under pressure with the player not being good enough to receive in such conditions (only Amad and mainoo I would trust in this situation). Don’t play long high balls to Hoijlund - somebody nailed his feet to the ground so he can’t jump.

Move the ball quicker - we give too much time for the opposition to reshape. It looks very like we don’t know what to do with the ball most of the time. Pass to someone other than Bruno. We have more than just him and his turnover rate is high.

Pay attention - be alert not daydreaming, look around and coordinate the press. This issue is massive and makes us very easy to play through. We still don’t even run back a lot of the time.

The system is different but not that complicated. Pretty crazy to be making these comments on professional players but it’s there to see and is very frustrating to watch.
 
Its an admixture. The system of play and formation is utterly alien to the players and most of them don't understand it fully yet. Plus the players themselves had not formed ANY competent partnerships as a team under the previois regime. Those two factors and a thin squad thanks to injury and lack of funds have combined to precipitate the current circumstance.
 
It’s clearly the players but I do think you would get a better tune out of the squad if we played a different formation.

Sometimes you have to be pragmatic and alter things to suit what you have. It’s crazy we keep going down the same rabbit hole which isn’t working.

You have to blame the board. Kept Ten Hag, let him spend a budget the club didn’t have money for. Sacked him costing the club £20m in compensation plus a fee for the new manager. Hire a manager with a completely different system which the existing squad don’t suit. Have no budget to buy players in to accommodate the system. Sack the guy you entrusted to build the squad, chased for 12 months and paid compensation for. What a fecking mess!
 
The squads really poor, but the formation doesn’t remotely suit it. It’s a bit of both. It's lunacy to persist with the formation whilst we don't have the personnel to play it.
 
Its largely the players. There were a number of time yesterday that Spurs were in an absolute mess. A good side would have put them to the sword. We cocked up attack after attack with poor decision making, poor passing etc. This was also partly the issue EtH had. At some point, players make or break a team. If your players keep cocking up the basics then what do you do?
 
Bwuk said:
The squads really poor, but the formation doesn’t remotely suit it. It’s a bit of both. It's lunacy to persist with the formation whilst we don't have the personnel to play it.
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Nonsense... we had 2 different formations under Ten Hag and we were just as bad.... Lets not act as if it was any better.

We got dominated in every game, regardless of 4 or 5 at the back.
 
Rubbish goalkeepers and expecting young forwards to carry you in the Premier League. That's almost the entire problem.

The answer isn't sticking 17 year olds in the team.
 
Players not fitting the positions in my opinion. What we still need:

  • Proper attacking wing backs who can get up and down the pitch, Dorgu is a good start but he should be back up, same with Dalot.
  • 2 more tenacious midfielders like Ugarte, but they need to be better on the ball
  • Mobile, ball playing centre backs.. Maguire needs to go, even if he has been good this season he doesn’t fit system long term.
  • Mobile attacking midfielders who can carry the ball, score and assist. Amad is perfect, I don’t mind Bruno in this role either.. Cunha would be perfect for the LAM spot.
  • A pure goalscorer who can run the channels.. I like Hojlund and I think he has a future but he’s not a starter yet.
I think the thing we lack most in this team is mobility and physicality. Dorgu has come in and instantly looks like our most mobile player. Too many times have we had players who run through our team (Spence was a perfect example last night), we need legs more than anything right now.

Players who I think match the current system.. De Ligt, Yoro, Maz as a RCB, Martinez, Dorgu, Dalot (as a back up), Ugarte, Mainoo is questionable but if he is going to play it has to be as an attacking midfielder, Bruno, Amad, Hojlund (back up). Garnacho I’m really torn on.. I’d like to see him played as a RWB to see how he gets on, I don’t think he fits as an attacking midfielder yet.

Sell Maguire, Shaw, Lindelof, Malacia, Mount, Eriksen, Case, Collyer, Rashford, Zirkzee (I like him, doesn’t fit) and Antony,
 
There's obviously many issues, going back a long way, and deeply rooted within the club.

But of the actual current squad, I think a big issue is that we have so few players in what should be their prime years (say, 24-29). We have a a good few aging players (30+), past their prime, and plenty of younger ones (below 23) not yet in it. We really need more players at their absolute peak, but the policy looks to be to target many more of the 16-23 age. Which, while a good policy in general, and one we shouldn't neglect, isn't necessarily what the current squad is lacking at this stage in terms of the short term performances and results.

He may well have said it almost 500 years ago, but Henri Estienne pretty much sums up our current squad issues in 8 words: "If youth but knew; if age but could.".
 
I think if you add a reliable goalscorer/CF, not even top tier... Someone like Watkins up top, and then a more experienced #10/winger like Cunha, this team goes up several levels and is a top 4 side.
 
Likely combination of both

Players - massively underperforming. Playing simple pass, pass to preferable leg, quality cross, generally basic player IQ, it's funny how sometimes our players have problem with ball control

Formation - it feels weird to me, especially during transition it feels like we are playing in 10. Still feels like Bruno can't find himself in this system, he is everywhere and nowhere and when we are losing he is randomly kicking ball everywhere. Amorim should stick to his system if he can get players to play it.
 
bosnian_red said:
I think if you add a reliable goalscorer/CF, not even top tier... Someone like Watkins up top, and then a more experienced #10/winger like Cunha, this team goes up several levels and is a top 4 side.
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I think the same. But part of the me thinks adding a 20 goal a season striker to a team is going to be a solution to basically any and every footballing problem and it doesn't say much.
Our defence and midfield feel more functional and adequate than our forward line.
 
Formation only works if there are attacking wingbacks who will provide the width. We solved one side and now need to solve the other. Dorgu's presence gave Garnacho space and he created a few chances and got a few shots. We need a CM who is technically sound and can slot in next to Ugarte. CF is a given who can put away the chances we create.

I believe these 3 changes in our starting XI will improve us massively

CF
CM
RWB

If we can add a CAM then that will be cherry on the cake. But i think Mainoo/Bruno/Amad/Zirkzee/Garnacho will be our CAM next season
 
It’s the players, the tactics are not helping either of course but we just don’t have a huge amount of talent. I think most teams in the league would have at least 4 or 5 players who would start for us a, even the relegation teams have players that would significantly improve us. We rarely have a team that is significantly better than our opponent so some injuries, loss of form and we are just in amongst the pack.

We shouldn’t be 15th but we have lost our spending advantage at the same time as our overall quality deteriorating. Most of our top ten earners are irrelevant for one reason or another and I don’t think any team in the league could cope with that.
 
caid said:
I think the same. But part of the me thinks adding a 20 goal a season striker to a team is going to be a solution to basically any and every footballing problem and it doesn't say much.
Our defence and midfield feel more functional and adequate than our forward line.
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Yeah it can either be a bandaid to make a team punch above their weight or be the missing piece to make it functional. But a team who have a good defence and midfield but shit attack will be a shit team still in the grand scheme. You just won't get enough goals to get results consistently. A shit defence and shit midfield with a good attack will at least get goals and you'll be better off.

Whatever formation you go, even just listing off our players per position, our defence and midfielders are a much higher average current level than our attackers are. Especially when you consider what level you would expect any of them to score goals at is. No manager has a chance in hell here with Hojlund being seen as the main goalscorer of the team. Fix that, and you give the manager a chance to implement what they want.
 
I’d still love to see someone sticking these players in a formation that doesn’t immediately have major problems.

Bottom line is we have a goalkeeper that makes too many mistakes, basically no midfielders fit for purpose (except maybe Ugarte), no striker that belongs in the PL, and generally almost no creativity up front.

The squad is dogshit. No formation is going to make up for it.
 
The players are the issue with the formation. The players would be (and have been) the issue in other formations.
 
The key is to buy a couple of decent strikers and providers. Our attack is the most impotent I have ever seen in my 62 years of watching United. That isn't down to Amorim, that's on the Glazers, INEOS and our past recruitment personnel. It must be so demoralising for our players to know that if we concede one goal, it's game over, as our attack is so toothless. No wonder they are playing safety first football, in a vain attempt not to concede a goal.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Eh I'm not sure about top 4, but top 6 probably I'd agree.

Attack in general just needs a full revamp.
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Top 4 I generally mean top 5 anyway, CL places. I think any spot behind City, Liverpool and Arsenal is up for grabs for any team who sorts their shit out. Currently Forest are 3rd, Bournemouth 5th, Chelsea 6th, Newcastle 7th... I don't think there's any reason not to expect us to go above those teams if we brought in a good striker and another good attacker.
 
It's probably both. We have a team that is allergic to running and a manager who demands a lot of diagonal runs form his players in almost any position.

Of course there is also the fact that our team can't properly build up from the back or play through a good pressing team.
 
NoLogo said:
It's probably both. We have a team that is allergic to running and a manager who demands a lot of diagonal runs form his players in almost any position.

Of course there is also the fact that our team can't properly build up from the back or play through a good pressing team.
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It's amazing and bloody frustrating how these continue to be the case, no matter how many different squads we've assembled!

Are we just targeting those kinds of flaws? Or not targeting them deliberately but continually making bloody awful choices and getting that type by mistake? Or do players just become that type when they join us because there's something so intrinsically wrong with the club?
 
bosnian_red said:
Top 4 I generally mean top 5 anyway, CL places. I think any spot behind City, Liverpool and Arsenal is up for grabs for any team who sorts their shit out. Currently Forest are 3rd, Bournemouth 5th, Chelsea 6th, Newcastle 7th... I don't think there's any reason not to expect us to go above those teams if we brought in a good striker and another good attacker.
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And also a CM if we are to challenge for top 4-6.
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
And also a CM if we are to challenge for top 4-6.
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More for depth purposes, starting 11 wise I genuinely think it's fine with Ugarte and Bruno.

Our squad needs a lot of chopping and changing from a depth perspective. Teams can be very clever with how they fix this though. From a starting 11 perspective, a #10 and a CF would go a long way. But a lot of our current depth is a bit useless as it's entirely unsuited to the manager or the bigger problem is they're always injured. Mount is a good player to compete for the #10's for example, but he's always injured so he's a pointless player in the squad. If we break down the squad per position with players who are in all likelihood here next season (not counting selling/loaning due to upgrading on them), it's something like this:
  • Gk - Onana, Altay
  • RCB - Mazraoui, Yoro
  • CB - De Ligt, Maguire
  • LCB - Martinez, Heaven
  • RWB - Dalot
  • LWB - Dorgu, Shaw
  • CM (playmaker) - Bruno, Mainoo
  • CM (ball winner) - Ugarte, Casemiro, Collyer
  • RAM - Amad, Mount
  • LAM - Garnacho
  • CF - Zirkzee, Hojlund
Of course we can argue about which individuals should be here, but as of now this is it. Martinez's injury is unfortunate, as I didn't think the CBs needed anything else. We'll see how Heaven does, but between the others we might just have to make do with playing someone on the left temporarily (or Shaw can perform a miracle and be fit).

The weakest area by far is the front 3. Amad is the only one who should be starting, but getting 1 like Cunha in there makes it very healthy as Garnacho can do the role he should be doing (competition, impact sub, developing) and Mount can be a 4th choice there.

The midfielders are fine between Bruno, Mainoo and Ugarte, but could use with a better depth for Ugarte which would push Collyer back to more emergency and Casemiro also as emergency. Not urgent as we won't be in Europe next season, but yeah. RWB we only have Dalot, and LWB only really Dorgu, so someone like Quenda makes it possible to rotate on either side at least.

The way I see it - we need a CF, a LAM, and a depth wing back as the 3 priorities this summer. The CF would replace ideally Hojlund, but the other 2 are just adds to the group. We won't be in European competitions, so we shouldn't struggle with fixture congestion and should be able to make do with being a bit light in depth elsewhere (CM, LCB).
 
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