The main current problem, players or formation ?

I always go back the obvious. Defensive organization.

How many back 3 combinations have we tried thus far, vs how many clean sheets?

Yes we can go into an individual defender's thread and slate them, but then they don't play the next match and we still concede 2+ goals. Things like that are squarely on the coach.
 
It is glaringly the players. Watch any random PL match and you’ll find random names who are better than our current starters across any position. Think Kerkez, Ait Nouri, Semenyo, Aina, Joelinton, Mitoma, Antonee Robinson, Bowen and an insanely high number of other players. These are mid-table players who are clearly better than our current starters. Our squad has been hamstrung by the insane contracts and players who are devoid of any personal ambition. Giving up on a manager within 6 months is not going to get us anywhere. We have to see the Amorim journey and where it leads us.
 
With our given squad one can definitely do better, but this is the worst collection of players as a group since SAF. Not just because of individual qualities but as a group they don't complement each other. Its a mix of adhoc player buying without regard to building a balanced squad by ETH. As it is, there is a severe lack of quality especially in the attacking phase which has been getting called out in all systems.
 
I liken it to letting your other half loose and buying a new sofa.

Sure everything fits in the room, but you know you could’ve made a much wiser choice rather than the one with guaranteed Xmas delivery.

I think Amorim is an astute coach and manager, however I think he really misjudged what we was getting himself into.

Coaching is all well and good when you’re making tweaks and trying to change characteristics, but when you’re essentially moving away from a system which all these players have grown up on and expecting them to hit the ground running mid-season in the hardest league in the world? I’m not sure anymore.

This isn’t a slight on Amorim and to some extent not even the players. The new executive team at United got this one badly wrong from a timing perspective. It’s the type of move you make in the summer. Persisting with Ten Hag and throwing more of his preferred players at him this summer has to be as bad as anything that idiot Woodward did?

As fans we just have to accept where we are and hope in the midst of the madness this new manager can instil some method after “surviving” this season.

Of the 25 players or so he inherited, I’d be surprised if he was genuinely happy with more than 5 for the long-term. You can make a case for Amad, Bruno, Ugarte, Maguire and maybe half a case for current Mainoo, Garnacho and Mazraoui.

Onana, Martinez, Casemiro, Eriksen, Hojlund, Zirkzee, Rashford, Mount, Shaw, Evans, Lindelof, Dalot and whoever else there is all have cases to be completely fecked off out of the club either due to constant unavailability or just generally offering nothing of substance.
 
It's obviously the players because we were 13th before the new formation :lol:


We have one of the worst goalkeepers in the league.

We're relying almost entirely on Maguire in defence, who was supposed to be sold 18 months ago when we realised he's useless except in a low block counter attack set up. De Ligt has done okay but is nowhere near the level Varane was at during ETH's first season. Martinez has declined sharply and Yoro looks every bit a youth player thrown in the mens team.

We have two mediocre right backs playing wing back, neither of whom are any good in the oppositions half.

We have two painfully average midfielders and no depth beyond them, neither of which ever seems to have much gas in the tank.

We have a set of forward players where 1 out of 6 of them is playing to an acceptable standard. The rest are either taking the piss or are just exceptionally shite at this level.

And our captain/chief creator doesn't fit in the formation without massively sacrificing pace and ball carrying ability up front, or solidity in midfield.


This squad could get better results if we went back to Oleball or ETH season 1 football. But what would the point in that be? We wouldnt be good enough to qualify for the CL and the ceiling would be a midtable cup team.
 
Both, in the sense that we don't even have a first XI that's suited for the system, let alone having a squad suited for it. Even our current optimal XI for Amorim's system has a few square pegs in round holes. If we had appropriate players, we'd be doing great I reckon. But the players are ultimately the real issue because we were bang average at best under a different system. Shockingly poor squad management, and I don't think there's a system around that could make up for our lack of athleticism or extreme investment into attacking players with no end product.
 
The current problem is that we’re basically the WH Smith of football

- stuck in the past
- run down, dated and shabby
- everything/everyone is overpriced
- run by dinosaurs
- seemingly unaware of the magnitude of the required change and incapable of making change at the required velocity
 
It's absolutely the players. We can turn up against the top teams, but any time we play the mid-table sides we get humbled. If all players give it 110% every game, we'd have better results.
 
Roboc7 said:
There is a lower ceiling, you get exceptions like Forest and Leicester but it’s not sustainable year after year.

Evolution or pragmatism are most likely safer options in the immediate term. But beyond that it’s a disadvantage we need to persist and if it fails with this manger the next one picks up the baton.

This is the culmination of years and years of bad recruitment, that is our biggest issue it dwarfs the formation in comparison.
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It’s the continuation of years and years of bad decision making.
 
Players. Not the worst but probably the dumbest, weakest and most unlikeable squad ever assembled at United.
 
hobbers said:
It's obviously the players because we were 13th before the new formation :lol:


We have one of the worst goalkeepers in the league.

We're relying almost entirely on Maguire in defence, who was supposed to be sold 18 months ago when we realised he's useless except in a low block counter attack set up. De Ligt has done okay but is nowhere near the level Varane was at during ETH's first season. Martinez has declined sharply and Yoro looks every bit a youth player thrown in the mens team.

We have two mediocre right backs playing wing back, neither of whom are any good in the oppositions half.

We have two painfully average midfielders and no depth beyond them, neither of which ever seems to have much gas in the tank.

We have a set of forward players where 1 out of 6 of them is playing to an acceptable standard. The rest are either taking the piss or are just exceptionally shite at this level.

And our captain/chief creator doesn't fit in the formation without massively sacrificing pace and ball carrying ability up front, or solidity in midfield.


This squad could get better results if we went back to Oleball or ETH season 1 football. But what would the point in that be? We wouldnt be good enough to qualify for the CL and the ceiling would be a midtable cup team.
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You’re right, but the point would be to play better football. As you state, this lot will never be up to Amorim’s lofty standards, and when they try to play this way they suck. Getting CL isn’t the only goal. Not wasting our time and money and watching the team suck are also important. If Amorim needs to ship out half or more, why kill the rest of this season trying to teach donkeys to tapdance? Just let them do their donkey best and wait for Rubelution when he gets his players in.

I say this because he is years away from getting his players. We sign 2 this window and both start — it’s a miracle. Next summer he needs another 4, so it’s a double miracle. And the next summer 4 more — a never ending parade of miracles to get us to play a style that isn’t that exciting in the first place and guarantees nothing.
 
The formation in itself is fine. However the problem (or at least one of the main problems) is that arguably the three most important positions for it (the wingbacks and the striker) are the spots that we either don't have anyone suited or just have hugely glaring issues with for quality. Although of course, the striker is an issue no matter what the formation.

Getting suitable players in those positions would instantly make things much easier for everyone else. Stretching the play, our attack functioning better, pushing opposition back, etc. It wouldn't turn us into title challengers or anything like that, but it would instantly give us a better shape and balance to the team.

If we don't manage to improve any of those positions in this window, it'll start getting to the stage where I wonder if Amorim should adjust his tactics for the rest of the season. I've had no problem with it so far (although I have questioned why he continues with Mazraoui at RWB instead of giving Antony a chance there), but if we continue being too bad for the rest of the season it's going to be harder to build belief, confidence and team spirit going into next season.
 
Players - they can't get themselves motivated when it's not a top 4 side, a lot have nothing to work hard for having reached a nice EPL pay-band making more than a lot of other pros in less rich clubs, not enough leaders who'll actually hold players accountable, too many individual mistakes and lack of focus during games, a lot of forever-injured players.
 
While it's far from being all his fault, I'm amazed people are defending this guy to the hilt. He's been a complete disaster.

We had one shot on goal at home today. A penalty, which incidentally looked like the only way we were going to score.

He been dealt a poor hand, granted, but it's far from a 2-7. The players he's got should be good enough to be competing with dangerous teams in midtable, like Brighton, Bournemouth, Fulham, and Brentford. He's got players like Mainoo and Garnacho (I won't count Rashford) that other clubs want and who should be thriving under him. What he's done is imposed his system in every single game and it's not just that it's not suited to the players, it's not geared to the PL, either. No one plays three at the back because the battle is in midfield. He must see the way Ugarte and Mainoo are outnumbered while the back three sit deep.

You just cannot play this system without actual wing backs like Conte had. It ends up like 5-2-2-1.

What the club have done wrong is just looked around Europe and made a flavour of the month appointment, without thinking about how this young, inexperienced, foreign manager, from a completely different league, is going to work with the current crop of players, most of whom are not going anywhere. They just saw him as a miracle worker and never saw the potential pitfalls of appointing a manager who needs a squad overhaul when all INEOS can offer is a shoestring budget.

To salvage Ten Hag's dross, he has to simply get the best out of the players and do something similar to what Ruud did. Then, over time and with successive transfer windows, he should be able to gradually impose his system, which by necessity will be adapted to suit the league he's working in. The fact that he hasn't worked that out yet is scary.
 
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Teams know they can play positive against us and have a go because:

1. We don't have any decent forwards that can punish them other than a young inexperienced Diallo.
2. We crumble in fear when we're pressed.
3. We don't have any match craft, we just float through every game and are unable to put sustained pressure on the opposition.
4. Our fitness is terrible and we have limited options to come off the bench.
 
Redstain said:
Spot on, Amorim's team selection has lost United a few fixtures without doubt because it's fine margins. Fixtures like Bournemouth / Newcastle are different as those are examples of the opposition outclassing the team but there have been poor results which in hindsight likely would have been salvageable with identifying the correct player profiles for specific positions.

The 3-4-2-1 is by structure a relatively defensive formation on its own. There's two holding midfielders who can't join the attack due to the vulnerability of being carved through the middle and then only the fullbacks provide support beyond the midfield.

So at best it's 5 attackers with the the majority of the threat coming from the width of the team. Now when you concede that Amorim is persisting with defensively minded individuals at wingback, it means there's only 3 attacking outlets: the two 10's and the striker. Football is a numbers game and the modern approach is heavily dependent on overloads it's how space is created.

Now to make matters even worse, when the midfield is incapable of breaking the lines with passes (Mainoo / Ugarte) it shoehorns the striker into playing with their back to goal. The striker is therefore basically playing as a glorified number 10, they are constantly bringing the ball into play, never running into the opposition box but stylistically resembling a false 9. So that dilemma leaves United with 2 attackers who offer an actual threat.

So while that focuses on the players, it does demonstrate the lack of fluidity in Amorim's approach from a tactical perspective. It's not that he has to change the system but rotate the personnel in some of the positions and make slight adjustments.
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This is why i find it annoying when people say we play a 343 because we dont play 343, we play 3421 which is different because you have 3 players capable of making runs in behind the defence in a 343.

This is why i think Amorim should keep his foundation the same but be capable of tweaking his tactics. Playing a 343 instead of a 3421 would allow him to get better performances from players like Zirkzee, Garnacho, Amad, aswell as Bruno Fernandes who i think is horrible as a LAM but wonderful as a CM.

As you say our strikers are playing deep back to goal to recieve simple passes because Ugarte and Mainoo dont provide creativity making them play almost like false 9 (probably why Zirkzee has looked better than hojlund) but then Amorim continues to play Bruno Fernandes as one of his wide attacking midfielders which makes Amad our only forward who can get in behind the defence; our attack becomes very easy to defend against as our attack gets lopsided to the Amad's side of the pitch because neither a deep zirkzee , hojlund or bruno can make runs behind the defenders from so deep.

Eriksen or Fernandes needs to take Mainoo's role because we have no creative output in the whole team which is just biting ourself in the foot.

I think it was very obvious to see that against Southampton; even though the opposition were tired we completely dominated them once we had Bruno, Garancho, Amad, Zirkzee, Antony all on the pitch at once.

Why cant he start with these tactics? Its like he is almost too scared to attack. People have asked, why not play Antony as a wing back because his cameos have been decent at wingback? Garancho at wingback if he wants to persist with Bruno up front?

Attacking is the best form of defence and its probably why we are attracting so much pressure on to our back line because we are simply not attacking enough.

Id rather see a 343 than a 3421 - a very small difference but could be the slight difference this squad needs to get some form and identity to it rather than rebuilding his Sporting Lisbon tactics to perfection.
 
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The players is the obvious no 1 problem because when we played 4231 or 433, we were mid table. There is no excuse that I can think of to defend our players because they are proven to be not good enough regardless the formation is.

But this current formation or the system make us relegation team, which is worse than before. But you could see it in many ways or various reasons like the players just don’t fit to the systems or the players just can’t play in system that requires to be dominant or possession based team. We will only know whether the formation is the problem after Amorim is given time in transfer windows to buy few players to see whether there will be improvement or no.

I feel like the formation has improved us in keeping possession, and based on our team’s performance that I could see that there is direction from Amorim coaching our team to be a dominant team. It hasn’t been consistent but there are signs where we could dominate possession under Amorim and there are signs we could go toe to toe with Liverpool or city (not having 30% possession anymore vs Liverpool and city). However, the formation has made us worse defensively this season. We were pretty solid defensively this season before Amorim came. We had good amount of clean sheet early this season.
 
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The colour coding marking the Premier League results, in this Wikipedia entry for this season, clearly shows how the situation has got worst since Amorim’s arrival.
Green -win
Yellow - draw
Red - loss

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024–25_Manchester_United_F.C._season


We’ve gone from the joint 4th best defence, for conceding goals, to 12th in the league and rapidly getting worst in goals conceded.
We’ve let in 20 goals in the last 11 league games.
An average of almost 2 goals conceded a game since Ipswich, but over 2 goals per game since Arsenal.

.
 
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We are starting a 19 year old in midfield, two inexperienced strikers with barely double figures senior goals between them (slight exaggeration) and up until recently we were relying on Garnacho to start week in week out.

It's the squad, we have no strength in depth and no real quality married with experience.
 
hobbers said:
It's obviously the players because we were 13th before the new formation :lol:


We have one of the worst goalkeepers in the league.

We're relying almost entirely on Maguire in defence, who was supposed to be sold 18 months ago when we realised he's useless except in a low block counter attack set up. De Ligt has done okay but is nowhere near the level Varane was at during ETH's first season. Martinez has declined sharply and Yoro looks every bit a youth player thrown in the mens team.

We have two mediocre right backs playing wing back, neither of whom are any good in the oppositions half.

We have two painfully average midfielders and no depth beyond them, neither of which ever seems to have much gas in the tank.

We have a set of forward players where 1 out of 6 of them is playing to an acceptable standard. The rest are either taking the piss or are just exceptionally shite at this level.

And our captain/chief creator doesn't fit in the formation without massively sacrificing pace and ball carrying ability up front, or solidity in midfield.


This squad could get better results if we went back to Oleball or ETH season 1 football. But what would the point in that be? We wouldnt be good enough to qualify for the CL and the ceiling would be a midtable cup team.
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Many truths spoken here.
 
I don't think it is as simple as players or formation, yesterday's game was a bit of both.

For the players watch the match back and look at the difference between Mazraoui and Dalot, compared to Minteh and Mitoma. Minteh and Mitoma were up and down the wings getting in defensive tackles and then flying forward to be key attacking players. Dalot and Mazraoui didn't even come close to matching that kind of movement. Also in the centre Baleba and Ayari were far more aggressive than Ugarte and Mainoo playing with an intensity that the United centre couldn't match for some reason.

From a formation point of view, it was just too easy to pull your defensive line out of shape. Pedro and Welbeck took turns in dropping a bit deeper and Maguire, De Ligt and Yoro never seemed to know when to push up with them and frequently got it wrong, that pared with Maz and Dalot pushing forward opened huge spaces for Minteh and Mitoma to run into and even more space in the box as one of your centre 3 was always out of position.

We're a bit like you in the way that we play far better in open games and struggle against low blocks, yesterday your formation left so many huge spaces on pitch it was like Christmas for us.
 
The main problem is the club structure. Always been a problem since David Gill left, same time as Fergie. The entire club is a shambles of it's former self. We're living off the past and lucky to have the amazing fan base built up over Fergie's time at the club - who are now largely deluded into thinking we can/or have the right to challenge for trophies every year. Good times will come back, I think, but not for a long time.
 
100% Players, Amorim should tweak his style a little bit perhaps and try different things with the same formation, but even then, the players are either shit or actively playing shit, we were this bad before Amorim and his back 3 formation.
 
The players have had long enough to get what’s going on with the new (now not so new) formation. Amorim seems quite clear in his instructions to the players so, in turn, top, top professional footballers should be able to digest the info and put said instructions in practice, you would think.
 
It is clearly the players, only Amad and Bruno would get regular starts in most of the top teams in the prem, the rest of our squad are either rotational quality at best or not premier league quality at all/

It is not just the quality of the players it is the lack of players to chose from, take out Rashford, Casemiro, Eriksen, Antony and Malacia and we have a squad of 14 (13 players + Collyer not counting Bayindir) for Amorim to pick from (assuming Mount and Shaw are injured) the regular 1st 11/13 are getting no respite, players are looking leggy and are getting worse

We have no wingbacks, strikers who are not ready to be relied on as heavily as we are doing, Maiinoo and Collyer are too young to be playing every game, Onana is Barthez mark II,

So could we be better playing 442 or another formation? the only way this squad is scoring is reverting to Oleball, defending deep and then hitting teams on the break,
 
Our players are not as bad as they appear to be and it's absolutely no surprise that they often go elsewhere and do better. We have bought lots of potential but have no way to introducing these into the team in a safe environment.

Taking player X - a player with lots of potential but who isn't the finished article... drop them into their new team where all the other individuals are already playing well allows X to learn their place in the system with little risk. All the other players know their jobs and can support them. If a single player is down 30% for a few weeks whilst they get up to speed with the style of play and the expectations of them in that role - well that is very achievable for the team as a whole to still function and win. The player can be drilled in training, then start being dropped in as sub on 70 mins, gradually moving into rotation for a start.

So for Garnacho, he could learn the system knowing that there are already chances being created from other players at LWB, LWB, RAM and the other LAM who he is vying with for the position. He would also have a ST who knows his role, knows the runs he should be making and the positions he should be in during all phases of play. If we had all of that Garnacho would flourish and I'm 100% confident he would be a success in any system here.

Consider Hojland - the same can be said for him. If all of the players in WB/AM roles were used to providing service and he also had a journeyman ST who could function in this role it should be possible for him to flourish. I do believe he's got the ability, but has lost confidence in knowing where he should be on the pitch. Our attacks are never built with one touch play - every player wants to take multiple touches before looking for a cross so he has no idea when to time his run. I'm not saying it's everyone elses fault, but if you are not able to play on instinct you are spending too much time in your head, and so often he is now making the wrong choices of where to be.

The same can be said for Dalot, Mainoo, Collyer, Yoro - all players who would benefit from introduction into a stable playing environment. Any one of the above listed players would look vastly better playing for any of the mid-tier PL clubs (other than us), where the nucleus of the team is already well established.
 
From what I saw during first few months of Amorim tenure and last few games is that we are actually not that bad as results are making it.

I also have no real expectation of this season. We won't get relegated and hopefully we don't get into any European competition so we can plan peacefully for next season.

Last few games against top teams shows that we can play when we need to defend deeper our defending is solid.
The problem is that we are getting exposed when we need to attack or go toe to toe with other teams when we are leaving lots of space behind the defenders. Playing pretty high line we are losing to many unnecessary balls that result in counters due to mistakes in mid and attacking areas that are due to poor passes, mostly from midfielders or stikers inability ho shield the ball and bring others into play.

Biggest issue when playing more expansive are fullbacks Dalot and also Mazraui are getting exposed there each game resulting in goals. Dalot would be passable for a backup player, Maz is more suited for CB positions. We urgently need a premium or at least very good full backs this would greatly improve our play in attack and in defence. In attack last game showed that Zirkzee at least can hold some balls and include others. Hojlund is totally invisible and cannot do anything in regards of bringing others into play.

Fit Shaw on one side, premium full back on other side and experienced striker would already transform us into a much better unit. We also need cover in AMC and CM. I would also give Bayindir a chance in goal for a run of games.
 
SonOfFergie said:
From what I saw during first few months of Amorim tenure and last few games is that we are actually not that bad as results are making it.

I also have no real expectation of this season. We won't get relegated and hopefully we don't get into any European competition so we can plan peacefully for next season.

Last few games against top teams shows that we can play when we need to defend deeper our defending is solid.
The problem is that we are getting exposed when we need to attack or go toe to toe with other teams when we are leaving lots of space behind the defenders. Playing pretty high line we are losing to many unnecessary balls that result in counters due to mistakes in mid and attacking areas that are due to poor passes, mostly from midfielders or stikers inability ho shield the ball and bring others into play.

Biggest issue when playing more expansive are fullbacks Dalot and also Mazraui are getting exposed there each game resulting in goals. Dalot would be passable for a backup player, Maz is more suited for CB positions. We urgently need a premium or at least very good full backs this would greatly improve our play in attack and in defence. In attack last game showed that Zirkzee at least can hold some balls and include others. Hojlund is totally invisible and cannot do anything in regards of bringing others into play.

Fit Shaw on one side, premium full back on other side and experienced striker would already transform us into a much better unit. We also need cover in AMC and CM. I would also give Bayindir a chance in goal for a run of games.
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Financially it's a disaster and postpones the rebuild by years, very likely scenario though.

Agree on the rest, especially wingbacks are crucial for the system and we have none.
 
It's the players, anyone saying otherwise is clueless. The amount of "just bring someone in who can get us 8th" comments is a joke, for what? So the cycle can continue and the players get to dump another manager to get off Scott free?

If you can raise your game for Liverpool, City and Arsenal but can't find the same motivation to play against anyone else in the league then the blame lies solely with you.

"The manager should be able to motivate them" he did against the above teams and has called them out for the performance against Brighton as it's baffling that you can do it against rivals but not give a toss outside of that.

Brought in half way through a season, with no backing, to a incompetent and mentally weak squad who have no ambition or drive of their own but must be motivated to go onto a pitch where they don't care or play scared.

But yeah it's Amorim's fault for recruitment, the board and scouting failures, he has the impossible task of reversing years of incompetence.

He deserves backing and support, the players don't but a lot of you are falling for the "woe is me, it's so hard to play under this manager" tripe that we've seen over the last 5 years.

We will get relegated eventually if something doesn't change but I don't believe it will be under Ruben if he's given time and patience to fix this complete mess of a club.
 
It has to be players, the wingers and strikers cannot create good chances.

even if we can counter attack 3v3 or 3v4 the decision making is atrocious or the quality of the ball is awful.

I think Garnacho and Amad need to change wings and actually put balls in to the box, I cant remember the last time Garnacho scored after coming back onto his right.
 
ClassOf'99 said:
It's the players, anyone saying otherwise is clueless. The amount of "just bring someone in who can get us 8th" comments is a joke, for what? So the cycle can continue and the players get to dump another manager to get off Scott free?

If you can raise your game for Liverpool, City and Arsenal but can't find the same motivation to play against anyone else in the league then the blame lies solely with you.

"The manager should be able to motivate them" he did against the above teams and has called them out for the performance against Brighton as it's baffling that you can do it against rivals but not give a toss outside of that.

Brought in half way through a season, with no backing, to a incompetent and mentally weak squad who have no ambition or drive of their own but must be motivated to go onto a pitch where they don't care or play scared.

But yeah it's Amorim's fault for recruitment, the board and scouting failures, he has the impossible task of reversing years of incompetence.

He deserves backing and support, the players don't but a lot of you are falling for the "woe is me, it's so hard to play under this manager" tripe that we've seen over the last 5 years.

We will get relegated eventually if something doesn't change but I don't believe it will be under Ruben if he's given time and patience to fix this complete mess of a club.
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Having a different opinion backed up by common sense doesn't make someone clueless.

The fault is always a combination.

Players are much better than what is being seen - this forum changes it's thoughts on players like the wind changes direction.
Amorim has been dealt a bad hand with what he wants to do versus when he's come in and issues in the squad.

For now I would say the formation is mostly to blame though - it has been long enough for players to get a broad understanding of their roles but they still seem all at sea. Southampton battered us until they had to use their bench, Brighton were comfortably better than us yesterday. Teams all know how to play against a back 5, something has to give and the easiest short term fix is the formation.

Let's also be very honest re the statement that we raised our game vs Pool, City and Arsenal.

  • Pool we exploited TAA but they were better than us in general, 19 shots, 6 on target, double our xG. We were very good defensively because being under pressure against a better team plays to our strengths ie. sitting deeper, being solid.
  • City we sucker punched right at the end in a dead even game.
  • Arsenal comfortably beat us in the PL, in the FA cup they were also better than us, missing many many chances, but we hung on.
It is great we did the above but let's not pretend we played great football, the City game was evenly matched, the others we hung on to nick a point/win on penalties. If a team commits men forward against us, we can find some space in attack and we're decent on the counter, but if a team is organised and doesn't press us super high i.e. Soton, Brighton and invites us to try and create something, pass through them, we are screwed.
 
Sampling Sampling Sampling

The problem with the current approach to recruitment is that we are trying to find the perfect player for the system or just the perfect player and then we end up compromising. This has lead to our attrocious transfer dealings.

A better approach to player recruitment is using a sampling exercise, we search for young, athletic and motivated players who are beginning their football journey and are cheap - we keep on buying these players on low fees on 2 +1 year contracts and we just sell those that don't work and just keep sampling and repeating. No one has a crystal ball as to who will succeed and who will not, but if we don't cast our net far and wide we will always under perform with a strategy of using a spear to catch fish rather than a net. Have a high player turnover and keep the ones we feel have potential and just keep repeating the exercise. Liverpool success is based around some key purchases that worked out but they have not been able to repeat that approach. Which is why the only approach that can work is just keep buying and selling players and cycle through as many as you can.

You can then bolster this approach by adding out of contract players to add some experience or build out the squad.

Also we should reset our targets from league finishes to the type of football we want to be known for.
 
Cwall22 said:
It has to be players, the wingers and strikers cannot create good chances.

even if we can counter attack 3v3 or 3v4 the decision making is atrocious or the quality of the ball is awful.

I think Garnacho and Amad need to change wings and actually put balls in to the box, I cant remember the last time Garnacho scored after coming back onto his right.
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We don’t play with wingers as the two behind the striker are both 10’s so it’s a 3-4-2-1 and our wing backs are both full backs with one of them always playing on their unnatural side so we have zero width in our play, this is one of the reasons why I ask if it’s the players which we’re mostly all in agreement is a very large part of the problem or the formation.

I do think we’d look better if Amorim tweaked the formation so the two behind the striker were wingers and the played with two wing backs overlapping and offering the wingers the option of coming inside so we’d have a much better attacking threat, no one can convince me that playing with two 10’s and full backs as wing backs thus meaning a back 5 and two defensive midfielders is going to yield results although I do think a large part (75-80%) is the players.
 
Formations do matter but not for the reasons many think they do.

One formation is not inherntly better than another, but what matters is how players understand their role and their decision making, the majority of players have been brought up playing in the dominant formations which essentially are either 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 or slight variations of these two. When faced with a new formation there will be pushback as some players will not interpret their postions in the way the manager wants them to play because of their own idosyncracies and skill set, once pushed out of their comfort zone players will generally react in one of two ways. They either fully commit and try to adapt to their new instructions and formation or they put in a minimum effort to coast along.

A 3-4-3 requires the wide centrebacks to run into the channels either side of the central centreback, sometime all that is required is being 10 yards further up the pitch to make the system work but because of the players own experience, skillset and confidence they don't fully commit and thus we are left with openings which the opposition can exploit.
 
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We've assembled a really expensive squad that isn't actually very good.

I really don't get people going off about the formation. We tried 4-2-3-1 with the same group and they were every bit as useless.
 
Varane around town said:
We've assembled a really expensive squad that isn't actually very good.

I really don't get people going off about the formation. We tried 4-2-3-1 with the same group and they were every bit as useless.
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The debate about formations is that most players understand a 4-2-3-1 and their role within it without needing much coaching as it's a style they have played, but when faced with a 3-4-3 there will be uncertainty as what role does the fullback and wingers in a traditional 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 play? Also you can play a 3-4-3 lopsided with one wide man inverted and the other a more traditional winger. So you are right it's not the formation per se but the players have in built muscle memory and experience which will need to be overcome first, get them out of their comfort zone. I think this is what Amorim has been alluding to, the pain of learning something new.
 
Varane around town said:
We've assembled a really expensive squad that isn't actually very good.

I really don't get people going off about the formation. We tried 4-2-3-1 with the same group and they were every bit as useless.
Click to expand...

Its become my mission to correct this rewriting of history every time I see it.

The last season we played a consistent 4231 with traditional overlapping FBs we came 3rd in league, won a cup, another domestic final, and a European quarter. We were on a good trajectory.

The last 18 months under ETH was a completely different system - He tried to copy Pep. 4141, underlapping FBs, single midfield pivot, wide forwards hugging touchlines receiving balls into feet rather running in behind into the inside channels. high press rather than mid/low block. The systems were as different as the one we are trying to implement now. The squad we have does not have the technical or athletic ability to play either ETHs 2nd system, or Amorim's.

I'm all for migrating to a different style of play if we feel it will kick us on... but only if and when you have the players to implement it. Until you do, play to your strengths. It's pretty simple.
 
Nickelodeon said:
It is glaringly the players. Watch any random PL match and you’ll find random names who are better than our current starters across any position. Think Kerkez, Ait Nouri, Semenyo, Aina, Joelinton, Mitoma, Antonee Robinson, Bowen and an insanely high number of other players. These are mid-table players who are clearly better than our current starters. Our squad has been hamstrung by the insane contracts and players who are devoid of any personal ambition. Giving up on a manager within 6 months is not going to get us anywhere. We have to see the Amorim journey and where it leads us.
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That doesn't really make sense as a "reason" though, because you're cherry-picking the best players from 7 different clubs and saying "mid-table clubs have better players than us".

If it's all about lack of quality, how come we beat City away, Arsenal away (OK, pens...but were winning with 11-men) and outplayed Liverpool at Anfield?

The answer, for me, remains the same. It's incredibly hard to be the front-foot team in football and levels of magnitudes easier to be the counter-puncher.

If we set-up in a 5-3-2 shape and aimed to play a low-block / counter attacking style until the end of the season, I would be confident that we'd see results improve drastically.

The problem is, every time a manager tries to turn us from counter-puncher into a progressive, front-foot team, we ship goals at a ridiculous rate and lose all confidence.
 
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