The main current problem, players or formation ?

I think it's pretty obvious the players aren't good enough, the table doesn't lie. If you had all those teams above us playing in a 343 or 3421 whatever system they'd still be higher in the table but you can't deny you're getting some real fish out of water performances from some of the players, I mean just look at Garnacho, sounds like he's surplus to requirements now. Who would have thought that at the beginning of the season?

The only compelling thing left for this season and the foreseeable future is just to see who adapts to it or who will be let go. It's an incredible turn of events.
 
Martinez4midfield said:
I think it's pretty obvious the players aren't good enough, the table doesn't lie. If you had all those teams above us playing in a 343 or 3421 whatever system they'd still be higher in the table but you can't deny you're getting some real fish out of water performances from some of the players, I mean just look at Garnacho, sounds like he's surplus to requirements now. Who would have thought that at the beginning of the season?

The only compelling thing left for this season and the foreseeable future is just to see who adapts to it or who will be let go. It's an incredible turn of events.
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I like that we are no longer allowing players to hide,

And that we now have standards, it's been a long time.
 
Quinze said:
For me, It’s neither about the players nor the formation. It’s all about morale and confidence.

We’ve had absolutely no momentum since last season when everyone expected Ten Hag to leave. The idea behind sacking Ten Hag mid-season and bringing in Amorim was to generate momentum with a new manager boost, but that all went out the window when he chose a formation that clearly doesn’t fit the squad and would inflict short-term pain for supposedly better long-term results. Wounding an already injured patient without painkillers sounds insane, but that’s what the higher-ups decided, and Amorim is only applying the medicine they asked of him. If the miracle occurs and the patient recovers, the results will be wondrous, but if it fails, we can expect to be in midtable for a few seasons instead of qualifying for the CL every other season like we used to.

Momentum is what everything boils down to, and it’s the part of the game that gets overlooked when results are bad. Even City looked awful when they lost their footing, while Forest are flying high off good results. The problem isn’t just about tactics or player quality, but whether the team as a whole believes in what they’re doing and the direction the club is taking. It’s hard to apply yourself to learning a new formation when half the players expect to be shipped off at the end of the season.

Confidence is the belief that the system can work and that their teammates will deliver. When that’s low, even the best tactics fall apart because players aren’t moving in sync or playing with conviction. A lack of cohesion means players aren’t pressing together, filling spaces, or supporting each other properly. It makes any system look like a mess. Right now, we’ve got fullbacks being used as wing-backs, players constantly moved around, and some stuck in positions they aren’t comfortable with. Over time, this kills confidence and leaves players second-guessing themselves, looking slow and “lacking physicality,” as some like to call it. When individual confidence dips, team morale tanks, and it becomes a vicious cycle.

It’s easy to blame individual players or the setup, but to me, the issue is deeper. The team just doesn’t seem to believe in the club, or maybe even in each other right now. Fixing that, rather than just shuffling formations or signings, is what needs to happen for things to improve. Amorim’s latest outburst was meant to be a defibrillator shock to try and get the patient moving again, but we’ll have to see if it ends up killing it instead.
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Spot on!

People mocked Solskjaer for his « vibes FC » but « vibes » are a key part of turning a squad into a team
 
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Martinez4midfield said:
I think it's pretty obvious the players aren't good enough, the table doesn't lie.
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Theres a good chance, and the bookies agree that we will finisher higher up the table than our current position. Players not good enough, just narrative of the moment. There is enough quality there, but some players are not open to what Amorim is selling. Amorims being paid to do a job including getting past their egos. For any other players too stubborn to change, Amorim needs the clubs support getting them out. So yes its do with formations and players in so much as these players (and many fans) only go by what they know.
 
Both. Poor squad and even worse tactics. Amorim is doing a crap job. He simply does not have the suitable players for his favourite formation. The real problem is, if he won't change, we can easily expect another 5-6-7 losses in the second half of the season and we'll finish just above the relegation zone. To play Amorim's tactics successfully we needed 10 new players but in the club's current economic situation we needed 2-3 years for that. I don't think anyone could make a top 6 team out of this squad to be fair but maybe 7-8th would be possible.
 
The players. As much as people like to keep talking about the system, we're putting ourselves on the back foot constantly by making silly mistakes and conceding from set pieces.
 
RedFanaticTattooist said:
Both. Poor squad and even worse tactics. Amorim is doing a crap job. He simply does not have the suitable players for his favourite formation. The real problem is, if he won't change, we can easily expect another 5-6-7 losses in the second half of the season and we'll finish just above the relegation zone. To play Amorim's tactics successfully we needed 10 new players but in the club's current economic situation we needed 2-3 years for that. I don't think anyone could make a top 6 team out of this squad to be fair but maybe 7-8th would be possible.
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This is hilariously wrong.
 
I think there's more to it than just players. Collectively, players join us and get worse, or leave and get better. I bet that if ETH had bought Kudus and Gravenberch they would not be performing as they are for West Ham and Liverpool and be called not good enough, deadwood etc. I was hopeful that Amorim would be a manager that could inspire our players to improve since man-management was not ETH's strong point to say the least. Unfortunately the players (except Amad) seem to have gotten worse! The formation is also not working. Imagine if Southgate had done the same job as Amorim, playing 5 defenders and a holding midfielder, this place would have exploded!
 
It's a whole load shit rolled into one big steaming mess at the moment. Players bereft of confidence, a lack of quality and composure. Far too many individual mistakes, players shirking responsibilities. It's never-ending.

Amorim went nuts after that Brighton game and rightly so. They need help I get that, the make up of the squad and profile of players we've currently got isn't ideal for what Amorim wants. It can't be this poor though, it's not acceptable. It's been going on for far too long with this group now. It's nothing new
 
dcrompton said:
I think there's more to it than just players. Collectively, players join us and get worse, or leave and get better. I bet that if ETH had bought Kudus and Gravenberch they would not be performing as they are for West Ham and Liverpool and be called not good enough, deadwood etc. I was hopeful that Amorim would be a manager that could inspire our players to improve since man-management was not ETH's strong point to say the least. Unfortunately the players (except Amad) seem to have gotten worse! The formation is also not working. Imagine if Southgate had done the same job as Amorim, playing 5 defenders and a holding midfielder, this place would have exploded!
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Yup. It’s the whole culture around the club. I don’t know if anybody can fix it.
 
There is a 3rd option which is the coaching. This can be as a result of not enough timing coaching or the shortcomings of the coach, and since it is early we don't know which.
 
Players first, then formation

But this set of players have never been good enough, no matter the formation, so go develop the formation and phase out the players
 
ItDoesntEvenMata said:
Players first, then formation

But this set of players have never been good enough, no matter the formation, so go develop the formation and phase out the players
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The problem is that you will develop a formation using players who will be phased out. Very few top teams play 343 so it’s difficult to understand Amorim's obsession with that formation. But the board thought it was a brilliant idea.
 
I think the main problem is the age of the squad. Yesterday again vs Leicester we had Garnacho, Mainoo, Yoro, Dorgu, Amad, Hojlund and Ugarte whom are all 23 or under.

It's a huge, huge ask for a team compromised of young lads finding their feet and a bunch of new signings to gel and produce sparkling performances.
 
Lentwood said:
I think the main problem is the age of the squad. Yesterday again vs Leicester we had Garnacho, Mainoo, Yoro, Dorgu, Amad, Hojlund and Ugarte whom are all 23 or under.

It's a huge, huge ask for a team compromised of young lads finding their feet and a bunch of new signings to gel and produce sparkling performances.
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I'm not so sure about that, to be honest. Chelsea have a young squad, yet they seem to be doing just fine under a new manager. Perhaps the issue isn’t just youth but rather the inconsistency of our senior players. This season, we’ve been far too reliant on players like Garnacho and Amad, when ideally, they should be developing alongside experienced leaders rather than carrying the burden themselves.
 
Formation doesn't matter and 352 variations open up a lot of decent options in the manager market.
Not scoring goals is our biggest problem. I think you bring a 20 goal a season striker in and we immediately jump up to top 4 side. Basically swap Watkins or Isak for Hojlund and the respective teams would swap positions imo.
I'd look at the current starters as the survivors of our most recent cull which is a thin squad with not enough attacking options. Our options on the wing have largely been too conservative.
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
The problem is that you will develop a formation using players who will be phased out. Very few top teams play 343 so it’s difficult to understand Amorim's obsession with that formation. But the board thought it was a brilliant idea.
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Amorim has had success with that system - albeit in a lesser league - taking the clear third best team to the best in the league by some margin. When you've had that record and the club you're taking over has been so poor, then it's more likely that he has the answers than what is already there
 
ItDoesntEvenMata said:
Amorim has had success with that system - albeit in a lesser league - taking the clear third best team to the best in the league by some margin. When you've had that record and the club you're taking over has been so poor, then it's more likely that he has the answers than what is already there
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Bayer Leverkusen under Alonso and Inzaghi at Inter have had a lot of success with it too. Tuchel is another who's partial to it. Conte.
Its really not that rare these days.
 
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The problem with Amorim and his style of play is that he is accustomed to dominating every match. In the Portuguese league, which reminds me of the Scottish league, there are a few great teams, but the rest are quite poor. Most weekends, Sporting are essentially playing against League 2-level sides. As a result, 9 out of 10 games are against weaker opposition, where they dominate most of the game.

The Premier League, however, is a completely different challenge. To play that way, you need one of the best squads in the league, which, as we all know, is not the case with United at the moment.

I really hope we can adopt a more direct style of play. It feels like every attack has to start over with Maguire every time we get possession. We’re re playing against quality sides with strong tactical structures. If we allow them to get back into position with 11 men behind the ball, we won’t t create any meaningful chances.

Right now, United are so boring to watch. We don’t play to score; we just pass the ball around in a back five.

So the formation needs better and more suitable players.
But I really can’t see this formation and style of play being a success in the PL.
 
I don’t see the formation or the system as the problem. IMO it’s actually both Amorim’s decision and the players.

The players aren’t good enough and still need time to adapt to the formation. But this is not supposed to be relegation squad. At least ten Hag made United finish above the top 10. IMO, it’s supposed to be mid table team.

Amorim is also the problem because he’s persistent to play 3 CB, 1 CDM, and 2 Full backs (6 defensive minded) against mid table and relegation teams like Palace, Brighton, Leicester, and teams that we are supposed to take more risk against them. He needs to start Amad as RWB against these teams. Amorim treated them like they’re City, Liverpool, and arsenal. How does he expect to play like a dominant team and winning matches if his set of mind is playing 6 defensive minded players against Palace, Brighton, and Leicester especially in Old Trafford?
 
I like the disruption the 343 formation has brought, it has really highlighted the deficiencies in the squad.
We may not be privy to it, but surely by sticking by the formation you could probably tell in training which players are willing to adapt for the team vs those who won't or can't.
With essentially two midfielder spots, you can tell which players have the "engine" for it before even getting down to assessing quality. Same for the requirements at wingback, the 10s and the 9...
 
MUEricTheKing said:
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The problem with Amorim and his style of play is that he is accustomed to dominating every match. In the Portuguese league, which reminds me of the Scottish league, there are a few great teams, but the rest are quite poor. Most weekends, Sporting are essentially playing against League 2-level sides. As a result, 9 out of 10 games are against weaker opposition, where they dominate most of the game.

The Premier League, however, is a completely different challenge. To play that way, you need one of the best squads in the league, which, as we all know, is not the case with United at the moment.

I really hope we can adopt a more direct style of play. It feels like every attack has to start over with Maguire every time we get possession. We’re re playing against quality sides with strong tactical structures. If we allow them to get back into position with 11 men behind the ball, we won’t t create any meaningful chances.

Right now, United are so boring to watch. We don’t play to score; we just pass the ball around in a back five.

So the formation needs better and more suitable players.
But I really can’t see this formation and style of play being a success in the PL.
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I feel like this is not recognising how bad sporting were and the fact that Porto and Benfica are good teams.
 
SAF had many qualities but his best two qualities were

a- recognition that trophies are won by players and not formation. Thus he focused on bringing in players with the right attitude and skills at United and he would get rid of any rotten apple no matter how important that player was
b- recognition that balance is everything. For example when he brought Ronaldo (great talent but certainly someone who hated backtracking) he compensated with that with Park, Teveth and Rooney. When Scholes and Carrick were ageing he preferred Cleverley (workhorse) over Pogba because the former provided legwork etc.

SAF's transfer strategy was also simple. He tend to gamble alot on academy players and players on a budget that in turn allowed him to go and spend big for the next young talent that fitted his system.

At one point his strategy had to shift mostly because of the Glazer's debt pressing in. Thus he shifted to a 'safer' system were we bought EPL proven players (Young, Valencia etc) to provide cover and legwork to his fading stars. Our style shifted as well. United became a very pragmatic team who played counters and made the best out of the declining quality we had. When we lost the league because of goal difference, SAF could have opted in a total revamp of CM. He went for the cheaper route ie the deadly striker on the wrong side of his career instead. That was cheaper but it acted as a decent enough band-aid for him to leave the club as a champion.

With SAF gone, United became more business oriented with players like Lingard, Rashford and Pogba pretty much getting away with anything. One can argue the choice of managers we went for (usually bad) etc but every manager soon came to the same conclusion. United doesn't have neither the money nor the patience for a proper rebuild hence we're better off sticking to a simple counterattacking football and hope that someone upfront (usually Glazers favorite but also the likes of McT/Fellaini) would bail us out. Hence our forward line had seen some of the most selfish players around such as Rashford, Pogba, Sanchez, ADM, Garnacho and Bruno (who works hard but keeps wasting everything away with his hollywood passes). If they couldn't bail us out then the battering rams would (Fellaini, McT etc) and if they failed, weell, we can blame the manager right?

United can't keep ignore this problem. We need to build a side that can properly retain ball possession for most of the time and be able to patiently and effectively break a low block. We also need to improve other areas as well like for example be able to sell high and buy decently. The former had been an issue since the beginning of time (ie throughout SAF's reign)
 
For me it's simple.

He won't change the formation to a back 4 but he has to surely adapt so we're a 3-2-4-1 not a 3-4-2-1. Sounds similar but them wide players HAVE to be attacking! (Dorgu/Garnacho/Amad). We need that wide attacking threat especially at OT, it's a huge pitch and width has always been important to our success because of it.
 
The biggest problem is midfield, we don't have a player who can dictate the game. We need a smart player who can influence the game with his passing and help us keep the ball for more than one second.
 
Darlington Padgett said:
The biggest problem is midfield, we don't have a player who can dictate the game. We need a smart player who can influence the game with his passing and help us keep the ball for more than one second.
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We are too slow in the middle, that is clear, with vey little aggression and bite, I think football has moved a little away from the deep lying guy who can dictate everything, it's too easy to shut down unless the system caters to them like Rodri which, as we see with City now, is a huge weakness if that player gets injured.

What I'm trying to work out is what Amorim's real plan is in the middle, does he want a really creative CM? Hjumland, Ugarte before him, Morita, are any of these guys who dictate? It seems if you look at Amorim's setup high level he wants the CM pair to be high energy ball recyclers, who can link and get forward but whose primary responsibility is off the ball and defensive. The attacking threat comes from the WBs going high, the 10s dropping in to receive the ball and the CF being a focal point. Which again comes back to the issue of why aren't we overlapping the WBs to give the 10s more space and offer the threat of crossing?
 
Darlington Padgett said:
The biggest problem is midfield, we don't have a player who can dictate the game. We need a smart player who can influence the game with his passing and help us keep the ball for more than one second.
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One of the biggest problems. The other is not having a clinical ST. A ST like Haaland who can have quiet games but when he’s needed he always scores and is in the right place at the right time. Also a ST that can hold up the ball really well.
 
I swear this formation talk gets vastly overrated considering they’re never static, and there’s not a realistic argument for improved results by a change of formation alone.

For example, debating about having 3, 4, 5 at the back is almost pointless when midfield struggles to dictate games, and they + forwards having a tendency to lose possession forces us to play more defensively and thus having what seems to be like 5 defenders when tracking back.
 
Florida Man said:
I swear this formation talk gets vastly overrated considering they’re never static, and there’s not a realistic argument for improved results by a change of formation alone.

For example, debating about having 3, 4, 5 at the back is almost pointless when midfield struggles to dictate games, and they + forwards having a tendency to lose possession forces us to play more defensively and thus having what seems to be like 5 defenders when tracking back.
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I think more that an extra CB exacerbates our issues. We lack bodies in advanced positions, for all the criticism of our attacking player just look at the lack of support they get.

The full Leicteser match is on youtube interestingly, but here is an example of where I think we go hugely wrong - this is one of the few times Hojlund did well, he beats two men and just look at how long support takes to arrive, it's him and Amad versus 6.
Example
 
Florida Man said:
I swear this formation talk gets vastly overrated considering they’re never static, and there’s not a realistic argument for improved results by a change of formation alone.

For example, debating about having 3, 4, 5 at the back is almost pointless when midfield struggles to dictate games, and they + forwards having a tendency to lose possession forces us to play more defensively and thus having what seems to be like 5 defenders when tracking back.
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Yep, only those who understand football can grasp this. Its almost we were a fluid, attacking team with the 4 at the back.

What people dont understand is that player confidence in their team mates drop when they keep losing it. For instance, whenever the ball is played to Hojund there is a 90% chance he loses it within 0.2 seconds. So, imagine building up from the back, finding that space to punch it into him and the ball comes back.

It has 2 consequences.
1. Lack of control further up the pitch, which means we cant be creative as the ball struggles to be played up top.
2. Lack of confidence in Hojlund, after a while, as a player, you would refrain from making runs, knowing that the ball will be lost and you will have to run back, so players stop making runs when Hojlund has the ball as he never passes or is very poor at it.

This also means, teammates will tend then to be in 2 minds playing the pass into him and take the easier option of passing it sideways, taking us longer to get up top.
 
Correction:

The main current problem, players or formation or manager ... or all three?
 
Darlington Padgett said:
The biggest problem is midfield, we don't have a player who can dictate the game. We need a smart player who can influence the game with his passing and help us keep the ball for more than one second.
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We do have such a player, unfortunately his legs aren't up to it against most opponents
 
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