Television The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

Christ this thread is just a sad collection of negativity. I for one am loving the series. I have no time to read the books, possibly the only time I will ever have to do so is in my late 70s/80s if I survive that long.
Having this show and showing me Sauron in human form, master deceiver and manipulator is great for someone in my case. For example I loved the beginning of season 2 episode 1
 
Slevs said:
Christ this thread is just a sad collection of negativity. I for one am loving the series. I have no time to read the books, possibly the only time I will ever have to do so is in my late 70s/80s if I survive that long.
Having this show and showing me Sauron in human form, master deceiver and manipulator is great for someone in my case. For example I loved the beginning of season 2 episode 1
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Like the orcs deeiving Sauron and killing him?
 
Slevs said:
Christ this thread is just a sad collection of negativity. I for one am loving the series. I have no time to read the books, possibly the only time I will ever have to do so is in my late 70s/80s if I survive that long.
Having this show and showing me Sauron in human form, master deceiver and manipulator is great for someone in my case. For example I loved the beginning of season 2 episode 1
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That wasn't Sauron, that was his cousin Jeff.
 
Gehrman said:
Like the orcs deeiving Sauron and killing him?
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Yes. It humanized the orcs a bit and doesn't make them mindless baboons that follow orders blindly.
It also shows Sauron's true character when he loses his shit with the orcs during the speech and treats them as lesser beings.
 
I was really disappointed by the first season. The second is better, but I'm struggling with the bad acting which breaks my immersion into the world. I can understand low-budget bad acting, but this is a big-budget production. How does wooden acting by the main characters get a pass? Is it the actors themselves, badly written lines, or that the actors don't "buy in" to what they're saying (perhaps they can't see the story ahead, whereas in previous adaptations it was more obvious)?

And I agree with the scene-switching being an issue. It does seem to happen as soon as I start getting interested in a plotline.

Anyway, thanks to @AfonsoAlves for the detailed Middle-Earth insights. I've enjoyed them more than anything in ROP so far, especially the Arwen insights.
 
Slevs said:
Yes. It humanized the orcs a bit and doesn't make them mindless baboons that follow orders blindly.
It also shows Sauron's true character when he loses his shit with the orcs during the speech and treats them as lesser beings.
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1)
They are more or less mindless baboons that follow orders blindly. They were bred by Morgoth for one purpose, to serve him and his lieutenants.

At the end of the LOTR, many orcs jump off cliffs and kill themselves because when Sauron was gone, they went to madness as they had nothing less to serve or live for.

"From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies
halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain."
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2) Orcs aren't beings.

They are beings from a biological sense, but even the Valar did not have the ability to create beings - only Eru himself. This is shown by Aule created Dwarves, which caused a stir, but even then the Dwarves had no lives until Eru sympathized with Aule, saw that what he was doing wasn't in his defiance, and gave life to the Dwarves.

Orcs were a manipulation of Morgoth (whether bred or corrupted men or elves remains a hazy choice) and therefore once they reach that level of corruption, sentience is not regarded the same way as the Firstborn or the Edain.

You're basically saying, "I love it because they portrayed Sauron and the Orcs in a way that Tolkien himself directly contradicts".

Also, Sauron wasn't racist. He treated all races the same. Everyone must abide by his dominion. His ultimate purpose was to seek order and control in the world, which is how he fell to evil. He took that to the ultimate logical path and decided the only way to achieve that was through absolute dominion.

Maybe please read actual works of Tolkien before deciding whether or not a TV-show that depicts Tolkien is good or not?
 
Slevs said:
Yes. It humanized the orcs a bit and doesn't make them mindless baboons that follow orders blindly.
It also shows Sauron's true character when he loses his shit with the orcs during the speech and treats them as lesser beings.
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That's the point of the Orcs; there are two possible origins of the Orcs, one is they were made of stone with hatred instead of heart and the other more usual is they are a corruption of the Elves, made to mock them and basically piss off Morgoth's (or Melkor as he was known then) father who had created the Elves. They were created and then bred with one thing in mind; destruction of Elves, Dwarves and later Men. They don't need humanizing, they are death and hatred incarnate and that is completely fine in a fantasy novel.

The Rings of Power is painfully idiotic writing by people who think they can improve on the works of the premier writer in the genre. It is utterly bewildering how bad they are.

The whole Sauron hairy ballbag thing flopping down a hill is pathetic, utterly cringeworthy. Galdriel is reduced to a complete idiot despite being one of the most powerful beings on Middle Earth. The claim she is in a "teenage" phase is laughable too, she is thousands of years old at this point and had already been through unimaginable hardships and development.

Rings of power would have been far better off leaving the characters alone, and just creating their own completely new characters in the existing worlds. They could have done whatever they pleased then.
 
Counterfactual said:
I was really disappointed by the first season. The second is better, but I'm struggling with the bad acting which breaks my immersion into the world. I can understand low-budget bad acting, but this is a big-budget production. How does wooden acting by the main characters get a pass? Is it the actors themselves, badly written lines, or that the actors don't "buy in" to what they're saying (perhaps they can't see the story ahead, whereas in previous adaptations it was more obvious)?

And I agree with the scene-switching being an issue. It does seem to happen as soon as I start getting interested in a plotline.

Anyway, thanks to @AfonsoAlves for the detailed Middle-Earth insights. I've enjoyed them more than anything in ROP so far, especially the Arwen insights.
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They've been given poor characterisation and shallow, contrived stories, even masters of the stage would struggle. There is no way to say "there is a tempest in me" well. That said, most of the cast are basically middle of the road tv actors or unknowns, so the effect is compounded.
 
Season 1 was very mehh but I've really liked the first 3 episodes of this season, I'm surprised so many don't like the humanization of the orcs. Orcs had personalities throughout the original trilogy, they're just fleshing it out a bit now.
 
Interesting reading various opinions on this. As a neutral who thought season 1 was mehh, this season feels more of the same. Playing it very safe, making the show suitable for watching with the entire family, the kids, and even the in-laws. I'm not a hardcore fan or avid book reader, but it doesn't feel like they are trying to improve on Tolkien's writing, just feels a bit Disney like with a few obvious cliff hangers here and there. I'm sure it's frustrating for the book readers because of the lost potential, and what could've been with that budget.

The acting is solid, and production values very high, so at times it feels like a bunch of veteran actors cosplaying LOTR, if that makes sense.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Isn't Lord of the Rings TV show meant to attract...Tolkien fans...?
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I'm an average (at best) Tolkien fan and I agree with you.

It's amazing they have spent so much money turning off people who were literally hoping that the show would improve (even with all evidence pointing to the contrary).

It's the EtH of Tolkien.
 
Crucifying the lore, ruining the timeline of events etc.

Any time books are adapted into movies/tv shows it gets butchered, because producers would rather be arrogant and do it their way, than aiming to please the millions of fans.
 
RacingClub said:
I'm an average (at best) Tolkien fan and I agree with you.

It's amazing they have spent so much money turning off people who were literally hoping that the show would improve (even with all evidence pointing to the contrary).

It's the EtH of Tolkien.
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It's the Disney Star Wars and Disney post End Game MCU of Tolkien. Disneyfication
 
It's not for Tolkien weirdos. It's aimed at the general public. I suspect most folk aren't bothered whether orcs are humanised or not. No one cares except....

And it's a good series, anything's better than those tedious books.
 
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Slevs said:
Yes. It humanized the orcs a bit and doesn't make them mindless baboons that follow orders blindly.
It also shows Sauron's true character when he loses his shit with the orcs during the speech and treats them as lesser beings.
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Its not just that they humanise orcs who well aren't very human. Its that as a race have low intelligence and are meat shields, but they successfully deceived Sauron the most powerful being in middle earth. I think an intent was to show that Sauron is immortal and a shape-shifter, but this is already known. Having him killed by mere orcs makes his track record of defeats more pathetic because at least his defeats in Middle earth were to the greatest men, elves and spirits of another nature of their time.
 
Gehrman said:
Its not just that they humanise orcs who well aren't very human. Its that as a race have low intelligence and are meat shields, but they successfully deceived Sauron the most powerful being in middle earth. I think an intent was to show that Sauron is immortal and a shape-shifter, but this is already known. Having him killed by mere orcs makes his track record of defeats more pathetic because at least his defeats in Middle earth were to the greatest men, elves and spirits of another nature of their time.
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Aren't they literally half human?
 
What I find the most egregious about Sauron being knifed by some orcs is this:

Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ‘stained’. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently ‘incarnate’: for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.
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Sauron hadn't put a vast chunk of his power into the ring yet, therefore he was still Maiar level strength, without being hindered on purpose like the Istari.

Sauron the Maia, strong than Morgoth who defeated the likes of Fingolfin, died because he got shanked by some angry orcs. :lol:
 
In reality, the moment Adar dropped the bladed crown into his back, Mairon would just wave his hand and all the orcs in the vicinity would be blasted from existence.
 
Yeah I'm not buying the whole Orcs stabbing Sauron thing, this guy is basically Neo in the Matrix, a rabble of Orcs amount to a pimple on his arse.

And humanising Orcs is such a 2024 silly arse move, once again the writers think they know better than one of the great writers in history.
 
Gehrman said:
Its not just that they humanise orcs who well aren't very human. Its that as a race have low intelligence and are meat shields, but they successfully deceived Sauron the most powerful being in middle earth. I think an intent was to show that Sauron is immortal and a shape-shifter, but this is already known. Having him killed by mere orcs makes his track record of defeats more pathetic because at least his defeats in Middle earth were to the greatest men, elves and spirits of another nature of their time.
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I think the bigger thing is that he also did such a shit job at pitching to them. The show on the one hand wants us to believe that he is a terrifying antagonist whose "labyrinth" of deceits you can't hope to escape, who breaks the minds of two of the most important and talented beings around, but on the other hand can't convince a group of beings that previously served the devil incarnate. Even in-show, outside of all the Tolkien stuff, it doesn't function.
 
Spoony said:
It's not for Tolkien weirdos. It's aimed at the general public. I suspect lost folk aren't bothered whether orcs are humanised or not. No one cares except....

And it's a good series, anything's better than those tedious books.
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We need a separate thread for the book readers.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
What I find the most egregious about Sauron being knifed by some orcs is this:


Sauron hadn't put a vast chunk of his power into the ring yet, therefore he was still Maiar level strength, without being hindered on purpose like the Istari.

Sauron the Maia, strong than Morgoth who defeated the likes of Fingolfin, died because he got shanked by some angry orcs. :lol:
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I do understand why they did it - it's a bit akin to the assassination of Julius Caesar. Someone many believes had gained or was trying to gain too much solitary power. As a fan of RL history I saw the poetry in it.

Also re Orcs being humanized: fkin PJ did some of the same - have some already forgotten that? For what its worth too- as a non hardcore Tolkien purist who read the books I never saw Orcs as mindless beings and always assumed they shared some commonality with humans and elves. What better way to show how much evil corrupts the mind.
 
I thought season one was simply dreadful and boring, but I’ve found season 2 to be a fair bit better so far. Still has lots of issues but it feels like a marked improvement so far.
 
Dan said:
We need a separate thread for the book readers.
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I think in this instance its warrented. The writers for this show wanted it to be in sync with the movies. In movies Sauron is this almost all powerful omniscient threat that no one can hope to defeat, despite not having recovered the ring or his form yet. Now he literally to an assassination plot by orcs in 1st episode of the 2nd season. Sauron is already the most powerful being in middle earth without the one ring.
 
Wasn't going to bother with season 2, but this thread mostly being nerds griping about power levels (not that I'm above a bit of that myself!) is probably a good indication that it must better than season 1 so far.
 
V.O. said:
Wasn't going to bother with season 2, but this thread mostly being nerds griping about power levels (not that I'm above a bit of that myself!) is probably a good indication that it must better than season 1 so far.
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I'd say it's better in two clear ways - there is at last some kind of actual dynamic between Celebrimbor and Sauron/Annatar, not just "have you heard of alloys", and most of the Harfoots are gone (they are about to be replaced by Stoors however so this may be temporary). With the rest there isn't any discernable change in either direction, elves and Numenor are still soap opera, dwarves are still good, southlanders dreary.
 
Ubik said:
I'd say it's better in two clear ways - there is at last some kind of actual dynamic between Celebrimbor and Sauron/Annatar, not just "have you heard of alloys", and most of the Harfoots are gone (they are about to be replaced by Stoors however so this may be temporary). With the rest there isn't any discernable change in either direction, elves and Numenor are still soap opera, dwarves are still good, southlanders dreary.
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At least one of the Disney like characters (not in a good way) characters in that crew is no longer around. That's a plus. (Do I have to use spoilers here?)
 
Spoony said:
It's not for Tolkien weirdos. It's aimed at the general public. I suspect most folk aren't bothered whether orcs are humanised or not. No one cares except....

And it's a good series, anything's better than those tedious books.
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The books are incredibe, but I suppoze in todays era, people are easily swayed by visuals instead of a good read.

The series is mediocre at best, but is still enjoyable. No where near the books though.
 
Spoony said:
It's not for Tolkien weirdos. It's aimed at the general public. I suspect most folk aren't bothered whether orcs are humanised or not. No one cares except....

And it's a good series, anything's better than those tedious books.
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Has it been decent then spoons?
 
Redplane said:
At least one of the Disney like characters (not in a good way) characters in that crew is no longer around. That's a plus. (Do I have to use spoilers here?)
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That's true, though now Arondir and Theo are moping around and Isildur's joined in, so it's like self-pity city down there.

Don't think spoilers are that necessary given it's been out for almost a week now, not sure people were on tenterhooks regarding that character either :lol:
 
They made it worse, the motherfeckers. A loving orc family? The parkour elf is back with a flying spin someone who just played Mortal Combat wrote. Feck em all and their mama. Elron is a little whiny bitch, thank you show, i did not know that.

The mighty numenor people are basicly farmers with swords and plastic armor here.

But all this i could live with, was it not for the whole mood in the show. They try so hard to give it the same feeling as the movies, but its just stupid. I am going to watch it all, but i will not enjoy it, not one bit.
 
The average Numenorean in the 2nd age was 6ft 4, with the royal family averaging 7ft, and Elendil being 8ft tall.

Yeah, great characterization in the series.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
The average Numenorean in the 2nd age was 6ft 4, with the royal family averaging 7ft, and Elendil being 8ft tall.

Yeah, great characterization in the series.
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Which would have looked ridiculous on TV.

The show has a tonne of issues. Numenor not being exclusively populated by NBA players isn't one of them.
 
I wasn't hugely enjoying it until I read some of the nerdiest whining I've ever seen in here and now I'm seeing the show in a whole new positive light.
 
BootsyCollins said:
But all this i could live with, was it not for the whole mood in the show. They try so hard to give it the same feeling as the movies, but its just stupid. I am going to watch it all, but i will not enjoy it, not one bit.
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me at a mediocre buffet
 
V.O. said:
Which would have looked ridiculous on TV.

The show has a tonne of issues. Numenor not being exclusively populated by NBA players isn't one of them.
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Agree, also either severely limits your casting pool or adds a load more complexity (and visual effects) to the production.

They do have to try and make it somewhat believable that Numenor are some kind of fearsome fighting force, though, Rohan with boats isn't really it.
 
Utd heap said:
I wasn't hugely enjoying it until I read some of the nerdiest whining I've ever seen in here and now I'm seeing the show in a whole new positive light.
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It does all feel a bit over the top. In some ways worse than Star Wars fans, but they probably have a pt with the volume of stuff they pump out for that.

V.O. said:
Which would have looked ridiculous on TV.

The show has a tonne of issues. Numenor not being exclusively populated by NBA players isn't one of them.
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Agreed. If physical appearances were *that* critical GoT got a ton of things wrong too for instance. Mind you, not disagreeing that the way they portray Numenor is a lot of cheese as I said before. But when you go the other way you risk doing the same thing (the movie 300 come to mind for instance?). I'm sorry but the Spartans didn't all have washboard abs and weren't all over 6 ft.
 
Redplane said:
But when you go the other way you risk doing the same thing (the movie 300 come to mind for instance?). I'm sorry but the Spartans didn't all have washboard abs and weren't all over 6 ft.
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Next you're going to tell us that there was no such thing as goat-headed minstrels back in the day.
 
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