Television The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

zing said:
I feel like I'm in a minority of people who're enjoying the show. It has fantastic visuals. I haven't read the books(except Fellowship of the Ring), and I am not constantly comparing it to something else. On Reddit, I saw criticism today that said "why didn't the Elves go to Eregion on horses?". Who cares?

Judging the show by itself, I think the first season had some great episodes and it felt like they got the pace wrong the way they rushed the plot in the last 3. It's not a perfect show, but there are many parts of it which are very enjoyable.

But when I come online, it's just people going crazy with the nitpicking.
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I’m also enjoying it. I’ve read the books but I acknowledge it’s not the books and it’s not Tolkien so I find it very easy to enjoy it for what it is.

I just really dislike Tom Bombadil as a character.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
1) Regarding Arwen raising the fords of Isen, not true. It is Elrond who does that, Arwen does not make an appearance yet.

2) Regarding Glorfindel, he is not on the same level as Elrond. Glorfindel is a "simple" warrior and he plays the same role to Elrond as he did to Lord Turgon. Advisor and Military Shock Factor Trump Card. Everyone embedded in the darkness shits themselves when they see Glorfindel in all his light.

Regarding Arwen, she does not play a "minor" role in the books. She does not make a direct appearance much, but her existence and character is crucial to the plotline and she constantly appears in reference or in background passing without a direct link. Put it this way, without Arwen's existence the "good" side loses the war and Sauron becomes victorious. Why? Because Aragorn wouldn't have showed up.

On the top layer, we are introduced to Aragorn as this confident, brash hero who is desperate to become King and will tell anyone and anything that he is the rightful heir of Elendil and Isildur. But why does he want to become king so bad? Well, 40 years prior to ROTK, Aragorn already had the perfect opportunity to become King. He had the command of the entire court, Ecthelion favoured Aragorn over his own son, Denethor and Aragorn could easily have taken the throne then and there. Instead, he goes wandering around Harad, goes to Mordor and then heads back to Lothlorien before going to the North and residing with the Dunedain for the next 35 years. Why?

Well, the answer to the question, to put it in modern terms, is that Aragorn was a ****. Edit For some reason S1MP is filtered out.

In the first half of his life, he meets Arwen and Elrond tells him that she isn't good enough for him and that he must do something great to ever catch her attention and that he is too young. He basically sets out immediately and does "great deeds" to prove himself.



By the time he enters Lothlorien, Aragorn is "weary" of the world, and lost most of his motivation. He doesn't really have cares for the chaos of the East and he sees much suffering and destruction. He doesn't have a desire for power despite basically being the most popular man in Gondor as Thorongil. All he wants to do is go home to Imladris and live a simple life before going back to the nomadic ways of his people.



But in Lothlorien he meets Arwen again, who loves him back after 29 years apart and they become engaged. Aragorn goes back to Imaldris to ask Elrond for her hand, having "proven himself to her." But Elrond says this:





Basically, Aragorn had lost motivation, but Elrond dangled his daughter's hand in marriage as a carrot for Aragorn to become king. Without this motivation, Aragorn would have long lived his life like the previous Chieftans of the Dunedain or married Arwen and lived out his life in Imladris. Essentially, Aragorn's entire motivation after 2980 T.A was to become king so he would marry Arwen.

This is alluded to multiple times in the books, with references that are hard to understand:

When the Gray Company arrives and Halbrand passes Arwen's message, it is this:
It's not "Your hope of being king", its, "Our hope of being together."
It is Arwen's banner that turns the tide of Minas Tirith. When Halbarand raises the banner into the air, the Gondorians and Rohirrim's morale is raised immediately because their reaction was, "Holy fecking shit, Elendil has returned YESSS!!!!"
Orcs reaction was, "What??? But how can this be? His line ended 800 years ago!!"



For example, when Eowyn begs to go with Aragorn to go with him and Aragorn rejects her, she complains that why is Aragorn allowed to do what his heart desired but Eowyn was not. Aragorn replied that his hearts desire was not to fight this war but to be with Arwen:



When the war is finally over, but after a few months Aragorn falls into despair because he does not know what happened to Arwen. He literally laments that everything he did was for nothing and that what use is there in being king if she is not here. Only when he discovers the seed of Nimloth does he feel hope again:

Note that his implication here is, "If Arwen does not arrive, the line of kings will fall because I will not have children or marry anyone else; nobody else will be queen."



There are plenty of other references signalling the importance of Arwen, such as Aragorn naming his horse Roheryn.

Tl;dr Half of Lord of the Rings is one guys quest to get laid, becoming King was basically just part of the process of achieving his ultimate quest.

So to reduce Arwen's role as "minor" and "eye candy" just because she doesn't appear directly in the texts is wrong; without Arwen, Sauron ultimately wins.
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Bloody hell what a thorough post!
 
It's Gandalf because the series is ultimately for casual watchers, who aren't going to get much out of a season long "what is his name?" story that ends up with "Pallando the Blue Wizard".
 
I'm gonna try and watch it pretending I know nothing about the lore.

I'm no expert anyway but I did love the books.
 
Redplane said:
Im still thinking Saruman and im sticking by it (it probably is Gandalf). Reason im thinking Gandalf is bc 1. Im thinking they re trying to throw us off with a variety of known resemblances and 2. He shows a knack for darker magic and especially controlling the elements. He even tells Tom he notices he controls them and wants to learn how to do it too. Isn't that more in line with what Saruman s power was?
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I think the possible choice is between Gandalf and one of the Blue Wizards (and they're not going to miss out on the huge fan-service reveal, just like they didn't in the first season with Sauron, so it's not really a choice).

The evil wizard is probably one of the Blue Wizards though. I think there was an implication by Tolkien that they've failed their original mission, most likely by abusing their power, which lately led to the change in strategy with Istari assuming more advisory roles instead of being the main actors. It's been a while since I've read the books though.
 
someone said couple of pages ago that this is a show for everyone, I agree with that and it's actually starting to be a problem for me. what I am getting from watching it is rather similar to what I was getting from the newer SW Disney stuff, meaning, it will never have any strength in it.

like I've said before, it's a 6.5 or 7 show to me, never really bad even at its lowest points, yet I'm actually close to giving up because I'm mostly browsing caf during the watch anyway.

I don't hate it, I'm just not getting anything from it.
 
Ubik said:
It's Gandalf because the series is ultimately for casual watchers, who aren't going to get much out of a season long "what is his name?" story that ends up with "Pallando the Blue Wizard".
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It could also be curumo/saruman

harms said:
I think the possible choice is between Gandalf and one of the Blue Wizards (and they're not going to miss out on the huge fan-service reveal, just like they didn't in the first season with Sauron, so it's not really a choice).

The evil wizard is probably one of the Blue Wizards though. I think there was an implication by Tolkien that they've failed their original mission, most likely by abusing their power, which lately led to the change in strategy with Istari assuming more advisory roles instead of being the main actors. It's been a while since I've read the books though.
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The order of the Istar were nerfed from the beginning. The valar who sent their trusted servants did not want a repeat of previous corrupted Maiar causing potential havoc so put huge limitations on their power.

With regards to the blue wizards, Tolkien changed his mind a few times. In the first iterations the blue wizards failed completely, in the later revisions the blue wizards were successful and deviated enough resources from Sauron to slow down his progress of destroying the west.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
It could also be curumo/saruman
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I'm being (perhaps uncharacteristically) generous to the writers, Gandalf would at least make sense with the character as presented, whereas Saruman wouldn't. Plus it's pretty clear where the hobbit story is going at the moment, and Gandalf goes hand in hand with that.
 
harms said:
I think the possible choice is between Gandalf and one of the Blue Wizards (and they're not going to miss out on the huge fan-service reveal, just like they didn't in the first season with Sauron, so it's not really a choice).

The evil wizard is probably one of the Blue Wizards though. I think there was an implication by Tolkien that they've failed their original mission, most likely by abusing their power, which lately led to the change in strategy with Istari assuming more advisory roles instead of being the main actors. It's been a while since I've read the books though.
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I'm leaning towards the witch king. Haven't seen the latest episode yet though.
 
Salt Bailly said:
I'm leaning towards the witch king. Haven't seen the latest episode yet though.
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Mm, Bombadil clearly says something along the lines of "you're not the first Istari to come here, asking me to teach him magic" — and the Witch King isn't an Istari, he's just a man. Who probably doesn't even have any magical ability since the human rings haven't been forged yet? The last part (about him not being magical) may be wrong though, but he's not an Istari.

That's in the last episode though, sorry for spoilers, but I'm sure you've figured that he'd appear by now if you're reading this thread.
 
harms said:
Mm, Bombadil clearly says something along the lines of "you're not the first Istari to come here, asking me to teach him magic" — and the Witch King isn't an Istari, he's just a man. Who probably doesn't even have any magical ability since the human rings haven't been forged yet? The last part (about him not being magical) may be wrong though, but he's not an Istari.

That's in the last episode though, sorry for spoilers, but I'm sure you've figured that he'd appear by now if you're reading this thread.
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I'm currently watching it and that part literally just happened...came here to correct myself during the Prime ad :lol:
 
zing said:
He used the same line(last one in s1) as Gandalf does in the fellowship of the ring - book and movie. It’s definitely him.
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I'm hoping they are the blue wizards. They are in the right place and it kinda fits. The tease is either a dumb diversion or an even dumber not diversion. Hoping for just dumb.
 
Some in this thread seem to dislike Tom Bombadil. What’s the reason?

I liked his portrayal.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
It could also be curumo/saruman



The order of the Istar were nerfed from the beginning. The valar who sent their trusted servants did not want a repeat of previous corrupted Maiar causing potential havoc so put huge limitations on their power.

With regards to the blue wizards, Tolkien changed his mind a few times. In the first iterations the blue wizards failed completely, in the later revisions the blue wizards were successful and deviated enough resources from Sauron to slow down his progress of destroying the west.
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I'm hoping they both represent each train of thought. The dark wizard the one who failed and the stranger the one who helped stopped Sauron. Ultimately he will help stop Sauron, so if it were Saruman, it's silly that he'd later fall under his spell. If it's Gandalf, seems a bit ridiculous that he never mentions defeating him previously. I don't see making The Stranger Gandalf as a big win for modern audiences, however easily pleased they may be with seeing references they understand, but I do see it as a big loss for anyone who knows it shouldn't be Gandalf.
 
Wow. They just threw the kitchen sink at the most recent episode, didn't they?

Tom Bombadil (now there's a character they need to handle carefully... or not)
Ents (including an Entwife)
Barrow wights (why would Elves care?)
A monster "from the dark places of the world", just so we can do a Witcher scene.
Lenny Henry's cousin with a very interesting accent.
All the best lines from the LoTR films.

I'm guessing someone said, "Lads, this isn't working. Randomly throw in everything people said they wanted to see, rights or no rights."

I thought it was all a bit desperate.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
History of Middle Earth
LACE
Fall of Numenor
Akallabeth

There are literally 500+ pages of source material on the characters here in the second age.
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And out of those 500+ pages, how much of that is made of structured stories that set a good basis for this? I'm genuinely curious, as going off of 4 sources at the same time doesn't seem the easiest of tasks to portray extremely accurately
 
The last line of E4 - Adar says "A star shines on the hour of our meeting" - by what name does he use to refer to Galadriel in Quenya?
 
zing said:
The last line of E4 - Adar says "A star shines on the hour of our meeting" - by what name does he use to refer to Galadriel in Quenya?
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Altariel, just the straight translation I think.
 
Ubik said:
I'm being (perhaps uncharacteristically) generous to the writers, Gandalf would at least make sense with the character as presented, whereas Saruman wouldn't. Plus it's pretty clear where the hobbit story is going at the moment, and Gandalf goes hand in hand with that.
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Why wouldn't Saruman make sense? He was once very much good like Gandalf and in fact shared some similarities with him. For him to first help the good guys only to be corrupted when faced with the opportunity to defeat Sauron would also fit with the way his unknown corruption came to the attention of Gandalf in LotR. He also shows a knack for/an interest in controlling the elements, like Saruman, and in some ways simply showing how good he first was would be the type of character arc we've seen so often.

Plus hanging out with Nori and Poppi for all that time would probably make anyone turn mad.
 
zing said:
Some in this thread seem to dislike Tom Bombadil. What’s the reason?

I liked his portrayal.
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I don't know, for me he doesn't pass... the vibes check? I'm channeling my inner gen z.

Kinnear uses his Shakespearean voice from time to time and it's the complete opposite of this completely looney yet strangely ethereal character. In this portrayal you'd struggle to separate him from, say, Istari if he didn't start to sing a couple of times (without any enthusiasm). The beauty of Bombadil's portrayal in the books is how completely off-beat he is... and you don't really get that he's this great God-like being that's been here longer than anyone else for a while, at least you're not supposed to.
 
Redplane said:
Why wouldn't Saruman make sense? He was once very much good like Gandalf and in fact shared some similarities with him. For him to first help the good guys only to be corrupted when faced with the opportunity to defeat Sauron would also fit with the way his unknown corruption came to the attention of Gandalf in LotR. He also shows a knack for/an interest in controlling the elements, like Saruman, and in some ways simply showing how good he first was would be the type of character arc we've seen so often.

Plus hanging out with Nori and Poppi for all that time would probably make anyone turn mad.
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Curumin and Olorin had a rivalry even in Aman prior to being sent to M.E as the Istari.

Also, Curumin was a student of Aule and...well...yeah that in itself tends to leads to problems.
 
Redplane said:
Why wouldn't Saruman make sense? He was once very much good like Gandalf and in fact shared some similarities with him. For him to first help the good guys only to be corrupted when faced with the opportunity to defeat Sauron would also fit with the way his unknown corruption came to the attention of Gandalf in LotR. He also shows a knack for/an interest in controlling the elements, like Saruman, and in some ways simply showing how good he first was would be the type of character arc we've seen so often.

Plus hanging out with Nori and Poppi for all that time would probably make anyone turn mad.
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He was never really anything like Gandalf, prideful and envious from the start. The Stranger very specifically wants to be able to control power so that he stops hurting people accidentally. Whilst I can imagine someone being driven to disdain hobbits as Saruman does by spending time with the Harfoots, I'm not sure this is intentional in the show.

And I just don't see one of the main characters being given an arc whereby the meat of it - him being seduced by the power of the ring - doesn't happen in the scope of the show. And if it did, it's already going to be the big story for one of the other main characters so would be redundant. Dramatic irony can only get you so far.

You can kind of see where most stories in the show are going -

Harfoots, Stoors, presumably Fallohides in season 3 - end up founding the Shire with no small help from a certain stranger.
Dwarves - Khazad-dum gets Balrog'd so they found a new kingdom under Erebor.
The elven rings end up where they would be during LotR - with Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf.

They want to prequel, hard.
 
Ubik said:
He was never really anything like Gandalf, prideful and envious from the start. The Stranger very specifically wants to be able to control power so that he stops hurting people accidentally. Whilst I can imagine someone being driven to disdain hobbits as Saruman does by spending time with the Harfoots, I'm not sure this is intentional in the show.

And I just don't see one of the main characters being given an arc whereby the meat of it - him being seduced by the power of the ring - doesn't happen in the scope of the show. And if it did, it's already going to be the big story for one of the other main characters so would be redundant. Dramatic irony can only get you so far.

You can kind of see where most stories in the show are going -

Harfoots, Stoors, presumably Fallohides in season 3 - end up founding the Shire with no small help from a certain stranger.
Dwarves - Khazad-dum gets Balrog'd so they found a new kingdom under Erebor.
The elven rings end up where they would be during LotR - with Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf.

They want to prequel, hard.
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If they want to prequel they're going to have to do some serious magic to reconcile the timelines:

a) How do you get Elrond together with Celebrian without Elrond coming across as absolute nonce. Elves don't physically mature until they're about 100. Celebrian either isn't born yet or the show has gone so stupid that Galadriel just neglects to mention her. Elves don't procreate during times of war according to LACE therefore, Celebrian will have to be born after the War of the Last Alliance is over. That then seriously dilutes Elladan/Elrohir/Arwen's physical ages in LOTR.

b) The Shire was founded around 2000 years after current events. Not sure how they're going to reconcile this.

c) No idea how they're going to solve the giant Celeborn shaped problem.

d) How are they going to create the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor when the High King looks like he is about 30 years from death (despite Numenoreans looking "peak" for 3/4 of their lives), the high king of Gondor not actually existing in the TV series and Isildur somehow escaping the flooding by being trapped in Middle Earth (or so it would seem.)
 
AfonsoAlves said:
If they want to prequel they're going to have to do some serious magic to reconcile the timelines:

a) How do you get Elrond together with Celebrian without Elrond coming across as absolute nonce. Elves don't physically mature until they're about 100. Celebrian either isn't born yet or the show has gone so stupid that Galadriel just neglects to mention her. Elves don't procreate during times of war according to LACE therefore, Celebrian will have to be born after the War of the Last Alliance is over. That then seriously dilutes Elladan/Elrohir/Arwen's physical ages in LOTR.

b) The Shire was founded around 2000 years after current events. Not sure how they're going to reconcile this.

c) No idea how they're going to solve the giant Celeborn shaped problem.

d) How are they going to create the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor when the High King looks like he is about 30 years from death (despite Numenoreans looking "peak" for 3/4 of their lives), the high king of Gondor not actually existing in the TV series and Isildur somehow escaping the flooding by being trapped in Middle Earth (or so it would seem.)
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The show has mithril be formed of silmaril-juice, I don't think they care about accurate timelines :lol: No idea how they deal with Celebrian, they fecked that one up for themselves.
 
Ubik said:
The show has mithril be formed of silmaril-juice, I don't think they care about accurate timelines :lol: No idea how they deal with Celebrian, they fecked that one up for themselves.
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So I have a question -

In ROP the three elven rings are made of the light of the two trees of Valinor (let's ignore the hows, but yeah)

The power is derived from, I would assume, that light then, given Sauron himself didn't put any of his own power into the three.

So, when the one ring is destroyed 3000+ years later....what would the explanation be for the three elven rings to stop working? Why would Vilya and Nenya fail to preserve Imaldris and Lothlorien respectively if their inherent power and creation has nothing to do with Sauron?
 
AfonsoAlves said:
So I have a question -

In ROP the three elven rings are made of the light of the two trees of Valinor (let's ignore the hows, but yeah)

The power is derived from, I would assume, that light then, given Sauron himself didn't put any of his own power into the three.

So, when the one ring is destroyed 3000+ years later....what would the explanation be for the three elven rings to stop working? Why would Vilya and Nenya fail to preserve Imaldris and Lothlorien respectively if their inherent power and creation has nothing to do with Sauron?
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At some pt I feel its best to ignore things and pretend it makes sense. GoT alone would have not made any sense from S1 onward if actual proper world distances had been factored in. At least Roberts bastard though was rowing for several seasons so we know the water was big *shrugs*
 
I'm on ep2 of the 2nd season and other than Galadriel vs Sauron which is barely keeping my interest, I'm struggling through the Gandalf/Dwarf/etc storylines. Is it worth continuing to watch?
 
It's an annoying show because there's the bones of a potentially good one in there, and they've just gone Shakespeare fecking Tolkien in Cornwall for 90% of it.
 
Donaldo said:
It's an annoying show because there's the bones of a potentially good one in there, and they've just gone Shakespeare fecking Tolkien in Cornwall for 90% of it.
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Tbf Tolkien's writing is def of a certain level that's not for everyone and some of the poetic like approach the show uses is not too dissimilar from the movies either. Less effective than those sure, but Tolkien is no Sapkowski or GRR Martin, and I mean that as a compliment to Tolkien.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
Okay, is this worth watching or is it going to disappoint me?
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The landscapes are worth watching. The story is mediocre at best, the costumes often look cheap and the acting is wooden. But the casting at least is diverse. Decide where your priorities are
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
Okay, is this worth watching or is it going to disappoint me?
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If you’re going to watch it expecting Tolkien and compare to the books throughout, yes.

If you’re going to watch it for what it is I think it’s enjoyable and certainly better than a lot of guff about.
 
stefan92 said:
The landscapes are worth watching. The story is mediocre at best, the costumes often look cheap and the acting is wooden. But the casting at least is diverse. Decide where your priorities are
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I disagree the landscapes are worth watching.

Considering their budget - the use of green screen is appealing. Looks so fake.
 
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