Television The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

From the other angle - they were trying to fit 1,000+ pages of events and characters into 10 hours of film time, and so things inevitably have to be altered a little purely to fit. Rings of Power is doing the opposite, where they have the bare bones laid out and have the opportunity to fill them out over 50 hours, but instead have ended up altering a lot of the bones to fit the story they wanted to tell. It's fair enough for them to do that, but I also think it's fair if people don't think their changes were worth it.

PJ's changes themselves were hit and miss - I felt the death of Boromir is much better in the film, it made a lot of sense to swap in Arwen for Glorfindel, and even the change in Aragorn's character to reluctant king was probably smart. But then some stuff like Faramir and Osgiliath, the ghost army, the Witch-King throwing Gandalf around all felt like miss-steps (could've been worse, they were going to have Aragorn fight Sauron himself at the end battle, but luckily they managed to change that in post-production). Partly why Fellowship is best, for me.
Arwen was only swapped for eye candy, she plays a minor role in the books, on the other hand Glorfindel is a high elf on a level plain with Elrond, who gets an even smaller mention in the books, it is Arwen who raises the fords of Isen, Gandalf gives himself credit for the waves appearing to be horses.
I agree Osgiliath is well overplayed, an error on Jacksons part, there were other worse gaffs or alterations, whichever way you want to look at them.
 
Have now caught up. I guess still doing spoilers as only the first day?

First episode was honestly very bad. The Sauron background was almost entirely unnecessary (ah yes, it's like Caesar but with black goo, that explains things. And he was on a boat in the middle of the sea because he was asked by a random person he just met to go, fine.) The elf stuff was just Eastenders with more rolled Rs and CG backdrops. Lots of bitching, faked deaths, arbitrary decisions, and Galadriel apparently has a ring because Gil-galad is a clumsy fecker? okay. And Nori likes eating bugs.

Second and third were definitely improvements. It's funny to me that the showrunners said "it wouldn't be believable if Sauron just turned up and said I'm a messenger from the Valar", and then that's exactly how in the end he convinces Celebrimbor, but never mind, it was good to watch. I think we get our first introduction to the Witch-King in the east and it seems as good an angle as any. Dwarves are still the best group in the show, hobbits are still the worst.

That kinda leads to the biggest problem, which is still that there are too many stories being followed and intercut between almost randomly. You begin to feel like you're hitting your stride with one story, but oh, now we're off to Rhun to show the most convoluting way of having Nori tell Gandalf that his name is Gandalf. Numenor had the potential for a very good build up to a big scene at the end of the season where Pharazon usurps, but because of the strained screentime it's basically a scene in a pub, a ball, and a very confused looking Eagle. Should people really care about this happening? Don't know as Isildur needs to have his love interest introduced.
 
The pacing feels more fluid, bit less exposition dialogue, perhaps results in less bullshit, even though it's still present at times. They toned down hobbits, and even Galadriel (not present in 3rd episode). Changes are here and there, but as expected, never too revolutionary. Durin conversing with his father about elves have some of the old Lotr vibes, same with Elrond's struggle in few scenes.

If I knew, what I know now, i'd skip 1st season, watch maybe two last episodes and jump into 2nd one with current enthusiasm. Surely not enough Ciaran Hinds as Dark Wizard so far, and that thing is promising as feck.

Reserving judgement for maybe two episodes more.
 
Just watched the first episode. It’s not as bad as the first season, I’d say, especially if you look past the hobbit & elven bits… and some of Sauron’s.

Also, why is 80% of the episode was shot at night? Was that to save the budget?
 
One episode into series two. Same issue as the first so far, everytime it hooks you in with some dark moody vibes they kill it with a farcical scene five minutes later.
 
Aragon's song when he became king in RoTK. Proper cringe.

If you read the books you will understand why that song was super important.

The ancient kings of Numenor had the ability to fester feelings of happiness and hope in people by singing. After Elendil landed on the shores of Middle Earth with what remained of the Numenoreans after his entire people had been destroyed, he sang a song which gave hope to the survivors that they could live on, rebuild and continue the Numenorean dynasty. He sang this as a promise to his people that they will regain their strength and prosperity. It became known as the Oath of Elendil.

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien
Sínomë maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn'
Ambar metta

Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.

Aragorn sings this at his coronation to first of all give hope to the people who have greatly suffered from a prolonged total war against Sauron. Second of all he sings this, as the Heir of Elendil, to proclaim that he will fulfil his ancestors oath of bringing happiness and peace to the descendants of Numenor.
 
Arwen was only swapped for eye candy, she plays a minor role in the books, on the other hand Glorfindel is a high elf on a level plain with Elrond, who gets an even smaller mention in the books, it is Arwen who raises the fords of Isen, Gandalf gives himself credit for the waves appearing to be horses.
I agree Osgiliath is well overplayed, an error on Jacksons part, there were other worse gaffs or alterations, whichever way you want to look at them.

1) Regarding Arwen raising the fords of Isen, not true. It is Elrond who does that, Arwen does not make an appearance yet.

2) Regarding Glorfindel, he is not on the same level as Elrond. Glorfindel is a "simple" warrior and he plays the same role to Elrond as he did to Lord Turgon. Advisor and Military Shock Factor Trump Card. Everyone embedded in the darkness shits themselves when they see Glorfindel in all his light.

Regarding Arwen, she does not play a "minor" role in the books. She does not make a direct appearance much, but her existence and character is crucial to the plotline and she constantly appears in reference or in background passing without a direct link. Put it this way, without Arwen's existence the "good" side loses the war and Sauron becomes victorious. Why? Because Aragorn wouldn't have showed up.

On the top layer, we are introduced to Aragorn as this confident, brash hero who is desperate to become King and will tell anyone and anything that he is the rightful heir of Elendil and Isildur. But why does he want to become king so bad? Well, 40 years prior to ROTK, Aragorn already had the perfect opportunity to become King. He had the command of the entire court, Ecthelion favoured Aragorn over his own son, Denethor and Aragorn could easily have taken the throne then and there. Instead, he goes wandering around Harad, goes to Mordor and then heads back to Lothlorien before going to the North and residing with the Dunedain for the next 35 years. Why?

Well, the answer to the question, to put it in modern terms, is that Aragorn was a ****. Edit For some reason S1MP is filtered out.

In the first half of his life, he meets Arwen and Elrond tells him that she isn't good enough for him and that he must do something great to ever catch her attention and that he is too young. He basically sets out immediately and does "great deeds" to prove himself.

‘‘Aragorn, Arathorn’s son, Lord of the Dunedain, listen to me! A great doom awaits you, either to rise above the height of all your fathers since the days of Elendil, or
to fall into darkness with all that is left of your kin. Many years of trial lie before you. You shall neither have wife, nor bind any woman to you in troth, until your time comes and you are found
worthy of it.’’

By the time he enters Lothlorien, Aragorn is "weary" of the world, and lost most of his motivation. He doesn't really have cares for the chaos of the East and he sees much suffering and destruction. He doesn't have a desire for power despite basically being the most popular man in Gondor as Thorongil. All he wants to do is go home to Imladris and live a simple life before going back to the nomadic ways of his people.

‘Thus he became at last the most hardy of living Men, skilled
in their crafts and lore, and was yet more than they; for he was
elven-wise, and there was a light in his eyes that when they were
kindled few could endure. His face was sad and stern because
of the doom that was laid on him, and yet hope dwelt ever in
the depths of his heart, from which mirth would arise at times
like a spring from the rock.
‘It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of
age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor,
where Sauron now dwelt again and was busy with evil. He was
weary and he wished to go back to Rivendell and rest there for
a while ere he journeyed into the far countries; and on his way
he came to the borders of Lorien and was admitted to the hidden
land by the Lady Galadriel.

But in Lothlorien he meets Arwen again, who loves him back after 29 years apart and they become engaged. Aragorn goes back to Imaldris to ask Elrond for her hand, having "proven himself to her." But Elrond says this:

‘ ‘‘My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them
little is clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe,
it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men
may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you:
Arwen Undo ́miel shall not diminish her life’s grace for less cause.
She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both
Gondor and Arnor.
To me then even our victory can bring only
sorrow and parting – but to you hope of joy for a while. Alas,
my son! I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard
at the ending.’’

‘So it stood afterwards between Elrond and Aragorn, and they
spoke no more of this matter; but Aragorn went forth again to
danger and toil. And while the world darkened and fear fell on
Middle-earth, as the power of Sauron grew and the Barad-duˆr
rose ever taller and stronger, Arwen remained in Rivendell, and
when Aragorn was abroad, from afar she watched over him in
thought; and in hope she made for him a great and kingly stan-
dard, such as only one might display who claimed the lordship
of the Numenoreans and the inheritance of Elendil.

Basically, Aragorn had lost motivation, but Elrond dangled his daughter's hand in marriage as a carrot for Aragorn to become king. Without this motivation, Aragorn would have long lived his life like the previous Chieftans of the Dunedain or married Arwen and lived out his life in Imladris. Essentially, Aragorn's entire motivation after 2980 T.A was to become king so he would marry Arwen.

This is alluded to multiple times in the books, with references that are hard to understand:

When the Gray Company arrives and Halbrand passes Arwen's message, it is this:
It's not "Your hope of being king", its, "Our hope of being together."
It is Arwen's banner that turns the tide of Minas Tirith. When Halbarand raises the banner into the air, the Gondorians and Rohirrim's morale is raised immediately because their reaction was, "Holy fecking shit, Elendil has returned YESSS!!!!"
Orcs reaction was, "What??? But how can this be? His line ended 800 years ago!!"

‘It is a gift that I bring you from the Lady of Rivendell,’
answered Halbarad. ‘She wrought it in secret, and long was
the making. But she also sends word to you: The days now
are short. Either our hope cometh, or all hope’s end. Therefore I
send thee what I have made for thee. Fare well, Elfstone!’
And Aragorn said: ‘Now I know what you bear. Bear it
still for me a while!’ And he turned and looked away to the
North under the great stars, and then he fell silent and spoke
no more while the night’s journey lasted.

For example, when Eowyn begs to go with Aragorn to go with him and Aragorn rejects her, she complains that why is Aragorn allowed to do what his heart desired but Eowyn was not. Aragorn replied that his hearts desire was not to fight this war but to be with Arwen:

‘Only so can I see any hope of
doing my part in the war against Sauron. I do not choose
paths of peril, E ́ owyn. Were I to go where my heart dwells,
far in the North I would now be wandering in the fair valley
of Rivendell.’

When the war is finally over, but after a few months Aragorn falls into despair because he does not know what happened to Arwen. He literally laments that everything he did was for nothing and that what use is there in being king if she is not here. Only when he discovers the seed of Nimloth does he feel hope again:

Note that his implication here is, "If Arwen does not arrive, the line of kings will fall because I will not have children or marry anyone else; nobody else will be queen."

‘But I shall die,’ said Aragorn. ‘For I am a mortal man, and
though being what I am and of the race of the West
unmingled, I shall have life far longer than other men, yet
that is but a little while; and when those who are now in the
wombs of women are born and have grown old, I too shall
grow old. And who then shall govern Gondor and those who
look to this City as to their queen, if my desire be not granted?

The Tree in the Court of the Fountain is still withered and
barren. When shall I see a sign that it will ever be otherwise?’

There are plenty of other references signalling the importance of Arwen, such as Aragorn naming his horse Roheryn.

Tl;dr Half of Lord of the Rings is one guys quest to get laid, becoming King was basically just part of the process of achieving his ultimate quest.

So to reduce Arwen's role as "minor" and "eye candy" just because she doesn't appear directly in the texts is wrong; without Arwen, Sauron ultimately wins.
 
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1) Regarding Arwen raising the fords of Isen, not true. It is Elrond who does that, Arwen does not make an appearance yet.

2) Regarding Glorfindel, he is not on the same level as Elrond. Glorfindel is a "simple" warrior and he plays the same role to Elrond as he did to Lord Turgon. Advisor and Military Shock Factor Trump Card. Everyone embedded in the darkness shits themselves when they see Glorfindel in all his light.

Regarding Arwen, she does not play a "minor" role in the books. She does not make a direct appearance much, but her existence and character is crucial to the plotline and she constantly appears in reference or in background passing without a direct link. Put it this way, without Arwen's existence the "good" side loses the war and Sauron becomes victorious. Why? Because Aragorn wouldn't have showed up.

On the top layer, we are introduced to Aragorn as this confident, brash hero who is desperate to become King and will tell anyone and anything that he is the rightful heir of Elendil and Isildur. But why does he want to become king so bad? Well, 40 years prior to ROTK, Aragorn already had the perfect opportunity to become King. He had the command of the entire court, Ecthelion favoured Aragorn over his own son, Denethor and Aragorn could easily have taken the throne then and there. Instead, he goes wandering around Harad, goes to Mordor and then heads back to Lothlorien before going to the North and residing with the Dunedain for the next 35 years. Why?

Well, the answer to the question, to put it in modern terms, is that Aragorn was a bit of a ****.

In the first half of his life, he meets Arwen and Elrond tells him that she isn't good enough for him and that he must do something great to ever catch her attention and that he is too young. He basically sets out immediately and does "great deeds" to prove himself.



By the time he enters Lothlorien, Aragorn is "weary" of the world, and lost most of his motivation. He doesn't really have cares for the chaos of the East and he sees much suffering and destruction. He doesn't have a desire for power despite basically being the most popular man in Gondor as Thorongil. All he wants to do is go home to Imladris and live a simple life before going back to the nomadic ways of his people.



But in Lothlorien he meets Arwen again, who loves him back after 29 years apart and they become engaged. Aragorn goes back to Imaldris to ask Elrond for her hand, having "proven himself to her." But Elrond says this:





Basically, Aragorn had lost motivation, but Elrond dangled his daughter's hand in marriage as a carrot for Aragorn to become king. Without this motivation, Aragorn would have long lived his life like the previous Chieftans of the Dunedain or married Arwen and lived out his life in Imladris. Essentially, Aragorn's entire motivation after 2980 T.A was to become king so he would marry Arwen.

This is alluded to multiple times in the books, with references that are hard to understand:

When the Gray Company arrives and Halbrand passes Arwen's message, it is this:
It's not "Your hope of being king", its, "Our hope of being together."



For example, when Eowyn begs to go with Aragorn to go with him and Aragorn rejects her, she complains that why is Aragorn allowed to do what his heart desired but Eowyn was not. Aragorn replied that his hearts desire was not to fight this war but to be with Arwen:



When the war is finally over, but after a few months Aragorn falls into despair because he does not know what happened to Arwen. He literally laments that everything he did was for nothing and that what use is there in being king if she is not here. Only when he discovers the seed of Nimloth does he feel hope again:

Note that his implication here is, "If Arwen does not arrive, the line of kings will fall because I will not have children or marry anyone else; nobody else will be queen."



There are plenty of other references signalling the importance of Arwen, such as Aragorn naming his horse Roheryn.

Tl;dr Half of Lord of the Rings is one guys quest to get laid, becoming King was basically just part of the process of achieving his ultimate quest.

So to reduce Arwen's role as "minor" and "eye candy" just because he doesn't appear directly in the texts is wrong; without Arwen, Sauron ultimately wins.
Holy feck. I am not being critical
 
One episode into series two. Same issue as the first so far, everytime it hooks you in with some dark moody vibes they kill it with a farcical scene five minutes later.
Yeah…seems every time it starts reeling you in with something interesting it switches to some annoying plonker’s storyline.

It is probably an improvement on S1 so far, but that isn’t saying much.
 
Having Sauron die that easily to a orkish plot is ridiculous. And the casting was off. Why was he even in Annatar form then?
 
I wish episode 3 wasn't a thing. I thought episode 1 and 2 were pretty good with one of my fav moments the killing off of a certain annoying character. But then we had to deal with Theo again in E3. Ffs I really hope he doesn't last much longer.

I also think the Numenor stuff was made way too cheesy for this show. Same in S1. It doesn't come across as the greatest civilization of man to me.

On another note: im now starting to wonder if the Stranger isn't Saruman and the dark wizard is meant to distract us from it (aside from some of the mannerisms and lines they gave the stranger).

I do think it's cool how they keep making a connection to the movies with certain lines and also shots. I.e. the way Galadriel holds up her ring and them joining their hands in a shot is a straight up copy of the intro to the LotR movies.
 
I wish episode 3 wasn't a thing. I thought episode 1 and 2 were pretty good with one of my fav moments the killing off of a certain annoying character. But then we had to deal with Theo again in E3. Ffs I really hope he doesn't last much longer.

I also think the Numenor stuff was made way too cheesy for this show. Same in S1. It doesn't come across as the greatest civilization of man to me.

I havnt made it to E3, but are Numenor discussing cutting ties with Valinor as a cheeky reference to Brexit?
 
Having Sauron die that easily to a orkish plot is ridiculous. And the casting was off. Why was he even in Annatar form then?
That was unintentionally funny as hell, he is the great deceiver and dark lord and the best he can do is channel his inner lord farquaad and tell them he is willing to sacrifice them for his goals.
 
Having Sauron die that easily to a orkish plot is ridiculous. And the casting was off. Why was he even in Annatar form then?
It was a very bizarre sequence generally. Made him seem incompetent (again).
 
That was unintentionally funny as hell, he is the great deceiver and dark lord and the best he can do is channel his inner lord farquaad and tell them he is willing to sacrifice them for his goals.

He's the most powerfull maiar there is and this is in his prime(peak is with the ring). Of all maiar probably only the herald of Manwe could bring him down to his knees on his own. Having a bunch of orcs ambush stabbing him to death is so not befitting the true deistic villain of the series.
 
He's the most powerfull maiar there is and this is in his prime(peak is with the ring). Of all maiar probably only the herald of Manwe could bring him down to his knees on his own. Having a bunch of orcs ambush stabbing him to death is so not befitting the true deistic villain of the series.
what do you expect from the show where galadriel gets one of the 3 rings because thr king dropped them and it fell near her
 
what do you expect from the show where galadriel gets one of the 3 rings because thr king dropped them and it fell near her

"She was meant to find it. It called to her. Blah blah."
 
It was a very bizarre sequence generally. Made him seem incompetent (again).
That was where I stopped watching. We're talking about a literal god here, why in the feck is he trying to convince anyone to do anything? Why is he kneeling to a human? The production values are obviously so high but yet again they have not invested in the writing and have failed in casting.
 
That was where I stopped watching. We're talking about a literal god here, why in the feck is he trying to convince anyone to do anything? Why is he kneeling to a human? The production values are obviously so high but yet again they have not invested in the writing and have failed in casting.
Speaking of casting, Charlie Vickers didn't bother me much in S1 but now as Annatar especially I feel like he misses the charisma/charm I expected him to have in that form in particular. The writing wasn't terrible, but Vickers didn't give me much reason to believe he was the great deceiver. I wouldn't trust him to pay me back a dollar if id lend it to him. Durin being suspicious helped a bit in that sense.
 
Speaking of casting, Charlie Vickers didn't bother me much in S1 but now as Annatar especially I feel like he misses the charisma/charm I expected him to have in that form in particular. The writing wasn't terrible, but Vickers didn't give me much reason to believe he was the great deceiver. I wouldn't trust him to hold my baby. Durin being suspicious helped a bit in that sense.
Yeah he sucks, wooden bland actor.
 
Speaking of casting, Charlie Vickers didn't bother me much in S1 but now as Annatar especially I feel like he misses the charisma/charm I expected him to have in that form in particular. The writing wasn't terrible, but Vickers didn't give me much reason to believe he was the great deceiver. I wouldn't trust him to pay me back a dollar if id lend it to him. Durin being suspicious helped a bit in that sense.
I'm only 1 episode in but the character of adar is so much more sauron-like that it makes the actual sauron look even worse than he already is.
 
Yeah he sucks, wooden bland actor.
Made me think: something like a Joe Black played by Brad Pitt in the Meet Joe Black would be a bit more in line with what id expect. Someone who comes across slightly akward when it comes to dealing with others and emotion, yet in turn shows an almost childlike innocence and charm that draws people toward him.
 
Yeah he sucks, wooden bland actor.

He works as anti-hero Aragorn as Halbrand. I don't think he's awful, but like Galadriel is ethereal in lotr movies they had go for something better than halbrand in a blonde wig. Jude law is too big name to fit in, but him as an ethereal Annatar would be better.
 
That was where I stopped watching. We're talking about a literal god here, why in the feck is he trying to convince anyone to do anything? Why is he kneeling to a human? The production values are obviously so high but yet again they have not invested in the writing and have failed in casting.
I was thinking maybe they were nerfing him without the ring like they've done with the elves, but to be honest that also doesn't work given he effortlessly beat Galadriel at the end of the last season. And then he did the light show for Celebrimbor and changed his appearance (except his face...), so that also doesn't fit.

He works as anti-hero Aragorn as Halbrand. I don't think he's awful, but like Galadriel is ethereal in lotr movies they had go for something better than halbrand in a blonde wig. Jude law is too big name to fit in, but him as an ethereal Annatar would be better.
He'd have done well as a tragic nazgul. It's a shame Lee Pace has already been Thranduil, he'd have done it well.
 
I think they did the part where he transforms into Annatar to Celebrimbor really well. Its just difficult to keep that angelic vibe constant in a series.

But starting out with him being stabbed to death by mere orcs is terrible fan fiction and breaks the whole narrative of the foe that nearly none in Middle earth can hope to defeat.
 
I was thinking maybe they were nerfing him without the ring like they've done with the elves, but to be honest that also doesn't work given he effortlessly beat Galadriel at the end of the last season. And then he did the light show for Celebrimbor and changed his appearance (except his face...), so that also doesn't fit.


He'd have done well as a tragic nazgul. It's a shame Lee Pace has already been Thranduil, he'd have done it well.
Lee Pace and Cate Blanchett are the only two that to me felt like portraying proper and almost untouchable Elvish royalty. Arondir and Legolas to me come a close second in portraying believe Elvish "foot soldiers". I don't mind the "big three" in RoP for the most part though. Only the guy playing the high king though so far exudes some similar gravitas as Pace and Blanchett. Was also surprised to find out he was American btw.

P.s. Honorary shoutout to Craig Parker who played Haldir in the movies.
 
Lee Pace and Cate Blanchett are the only two that to me felt like portraying proper and almost untouchable Elvish royalty. Arondir and Legolas to me come a close second in portraying believe Elvish "foot soldiers". I don't mind the "big three" in RoP for the most part though. Only the guy playing the high king though so far exudes some similar gravitas as Pace and Blanchett. Was also surprised to find out he was American btw.

P.s. Honorary shoutout to Craig Parker who played Haldir in the movies.

I think most of the elves in the Trilogy were portrayed well - such as Celeborn.
 
Celeborm was a horrible casting imo
TELL ME WHERE IS GANDALF

Speaking of Celeborn, when's he going to show up? Has he just been hanging in Lorien this whole time?
 
Yeah but he's fake dead, not real dead (because they needed Galadriel to fancy Sauron in season 1).

Mandos is keeping him well prequopied and satisfied meanwhile.
 
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The more I think about this show, the more I think it would have benefit from being more of a mini series of sorts. By committing to 5 seasons they have to add a lot of fluff. I dont mind all of it though being that Tolkien was all about world building but there are too many moments sometimes that take away from what otherwise are pretty great scenes living alongside them. I also think that though I can appreciate some of the basically carbon copy words or scenes from similar events in the movies to establish some sort of link between the two: in turn it also leads to the show missing a bit of its own identity.

One thing I am already anticipating is that if certain elves make it to Eregion unscathed next episode, and those before them did not - that they ll also add too much plot armor now that they've already committed to have Sauron have less of it.
 
At least they haven't done a Jaime "I never really cared about the common folk" character assassination yet. Apart from Sauron weak as feck.
 
Reading threads like this actually help, because it shows that I have also been blinded by the PJ movie portrayal of things:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR_on_Prime/s/egpMuQkGYu

People explaining that in some ways Elves being much more human and flawed is more accurate to Tolkien's descriptions than the ethereal beings they are in the movies. I also like how some comments explain how both portrayals can make sense and be able to co exist.