Well fair enough. I'm talking about a first impression, not a damning indictment of the entire thing, so it seems we're talking past eachother.
Feels like a classic case of agreeing to disagree to me.
Television The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power
- Thread starter DWelbz19
- Start date
Well fair enough. I'm talking about a first impression, not a damning indictment of the entire thing, so it seems we're talking past eachother.
Feels like a classic case of agreeing to disagree to me.
Problem is you've got people in here stating it's going to be a steaming turd based on a 1 minute video that reflects a 0.19% of the final product. It's hard to be able to tell rationale people like yourself and the others who like to jump on every show and be negative and complain about it being woke to try and get themselves hard. I'm done with those type of people, already had this battle prior to Witcher being released and it seems clear its going to happen again with this show.
I've read far too many comments already (not on here thankfully) referring to Galadriel as a Rey Skywalker character. Sigh. (Don't get any ideas ya bastards!)
Moronic - given the fact that Galadriel is literally one of the most powerful beings on Middle-Earth
That said, you can make the case that portraying her as some kind of warrior is a bit of a, well, stretch.
Moronic - given the fact that Galadriel is literally one of the most powerful beings on Middle-Earth
That said, you can make the case that portraying her as some kind of warrior is a bit of a, well, stretch.
Not at all, Tolkien writes several times that she is a brilliant fighter and has fought in several battles. The problem is that the Galadriel in Jacksons films is extremely different to her younger self when it was a far more brutal and violent time for the Elves. There's therefore going to be a very strong disconnect between the two versions.
I agree...and I also strongly suspect it'll be rubbish too.
Galadriel was a renowned athlete in her youth and was certainly active in battle.Moronic - given the fact that Galadriel is literally one of the most powerful beings on Middle-Earth
That said, you can make the case that portraying her as some kind of warrior is a bit of a, well, stretch.
Will need to point me to those - it's been a long time since I read the simarillion and unfinished tales.
Yes this was also what I was aware of, however I didn't take it as her being clad in armour and with blades.
Is she in armour in the trailer? I missed that. She stood aside in the battles of the First Age (including the kinslaying so was able to return to Valinor) if I remember correctly and I don't believe was present at the siege of Mordor so I wouldn't expect to see her running around in plate armour but, certainly, she could handle a blade and I'd have expected her to carry one if travelling.
If they turn her into Red Sonja, then, yes, that'd be concerning.
See below:
I keep seeing the complaint that Galadriel's character is being changed into a "strong female character" or "warrior princess". This is actually how she is originally described in the Unfinished Tales.
I'll let Tolkien speak for himself:
""Galadriel was greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he"
"Her mother-name was Nerwen (man-maiden), and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth."
"she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mothers kin"
"she looked upon the dwarves also with the eye of a commander, seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs."
"[Sauron] perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle"
After refusing pardon for her part in the rebellion against the Valar: "it was not until the two long ages more had passed, when at last all that she had desired in her youth came to her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth of which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test departed from Middle-earth for ever."
Young Galadriel, according to Tolkien, is angry, prideful, highly athletic and wise, thinks like a commander, is always suspicious of the return of evil, perceives and threatens the evil plans of Sauron, and has an unfulfilled desire for "the dominion of Middle-earth". This is the kind of character I am seeing from TROP.
I'll let Tolkien speak for himself:
""Galadriel was greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he"
"Her mother-name was Nerwen (man-maiden), and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth."
"she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mothers kin"
"she looked upon the dwarves also with the eye of a commander, seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs."
"[Sauron] perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle"
After refusing pardon for her part in the rebellion against the Valar: "it was not until the two long ages more had passed, when at last all that she had desired in her youth came to her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth of which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test departed from Middle-earth for ever."
Young Galadriel, according to Tolkien, is angry, prideful, highly athletic and wise, thinks like a commander, is always suspicious of the return of evil, perceives and threatens the evil plans of Sauron, and has an unfulfilled desire for "the dominion of Middle-earth". This is the kind of character I am seeing from TROP.
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Some just don't want it to be good so they can shout 'I told you so'!
Taken from Reddit again, this is someone's breakdown of Galadriels character. Warning it's fairly long and full of detail.
"Nor were the 'loremasters' a separate guild of gentle scribes, soon burned by the Orks of Angband upon pyres of books. They were mostly even as Feanor, the greatest, kings, princes and warriors, such as the valiant captains of Gondolin, or Finrod of Nargothrond and Rodothir [> Arothir] his kinsman and steward." - Shibboleth of Feanor
In the Shibboleth Galadriel is described as a loremaster as well.
In the Book of Lost Tales part 2 Idril fights in the Fall of Gondolin. In Shaping of Middle-earth Christopher says Idril was "the prototype of Galadriel".
Galadriel fighting at Alqualondë: "Galadriel’s quarrel with the sons of Fëanor at sack of Alqualondë. How she fought…" - Nature of Middle-earth
Note that the event of fighting at Alqualonde itself is described as a quarrel by Tolkien: "...Thrice the folk of Feanor were driven back, and many were slain upon either side; but the vanguard of the Noldor were succoured by Fingon with the foremost people of Fingolfin. These coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and they rushed in ere they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel: some deemed indeed that the Teleri had sought to waylay the march of the Noldor, at the bidding of the Valar."
There's a marginal note against this passage in Morgoth's Ring: "$149 Marginal note against the passage describing the involvement of the second host in the fighting: 'Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Feanor in defence of Alqualonde.' "
And in Shibboleth: "she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin."
Note that she wasn't the only female fighter at Alqualondë. Since we are told: "indeed in dire straits or desperate defence the Nissi [the Elf-women] fought valiantly" - Laws and Customs
But the difference between Galadriel and other Nissi was that she wasn't only brave, but she was also a leader and Amazon. "Galadriel, the fairest lady of the house of Finwë and the most valiant." - Morgoth's Ring "[Galadriel] was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats” - Tolkien Letter 348
“[Éowyn] was also not really a soldier or ‘amazon’, but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.” - The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter #244
The only women in Tolkien who are described as 'amazon' are Haleth (the warrior Queen/Chieftain of Haladin), the early versions of Eowyn in History of Lord of the Rings (she openly goes to war in those versions as opposed to the final version where she wasn't Amazon), Makar's sister the Valie/Goddess of War (from the Book of Lost Tales) and Galadriel. Tolkien translated the word Amazon into "Gothwin" in Elvish, but the literal translation of Gothwin is "War Woman".
"She looked upon the Dwarves also with the eye of a commander, seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs" - Unfinished Tales
Galadriel did fight in some wars against Angband like The Battle of the Lammoth and War of Wrath (implied but not explicitly stated). She was there in the Battle of the Lammoth and therefore fought (all elf women fight in such times of crisis), and according to History of Middle-earth Eonwë summoned all free people and birds and beasts to fight in War of Wrath, only cowards rejected his summons ("but the power and dread of Morgoth was great and many did not obey his summons"). Galadriel wasn't such. The reason Galadriel and Celeborn hadn't fought in previous battles against Angband is not because they weren't good warriors, the reason was... "they did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid; and their counsel was... " - Unfinished Tales
Nobody listened to their counsel about forming that alliance, and the Valar didn't send aid until War of Wrath, henceforth Celeborn and Galadriel thought it's useless if they waste their energy in that war as long as there's no hope. But when hope came, there was no reason for them to not join in the war. Even random Elves of Eriador answered the summons to fight when they heard of new come hope.
In the versions of Galadriel where her boyfriend/husband was from Doriath she also gone through some of the events of the Ruin of Beleriand (here it is never said if she had left Doriath before its fall and indeed it is stated she only crossed the mountains into Eriador in the Second Age and indeed it is even stated in a note about Celeborn that he was present in the sack of Doriath), all meaning/implying she was there in the Ruin of Doriath and the Third Kinslaying and such (as is also pointed out by Christopher Tolkien himself). We know female Elves fought in such times of crisis, even if they weren't Amazon.
In Second Age Galadriel was one of the war leaders of Eregion in the War of the Elves and Sauron. In the early versions Galadriel is not present in Eregion during the war (she was in Lorien), and it's her husband and Celebrimbor (and later Elrond) only who lead the armies of Eregion: "The scouts and vanguard of Sauron's host were already approaching when Celeborn made a sortie and drove them back; but though he was able to join his force to that of Elrond...." - Unfinished Tales
But in later essays and notes Galadriel is there right side-by-side with Celeborn: “Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria” “Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither [to Lorien] after the downfall of Eregion." “After the Fall of Eregion... They had passed through Moria with considerable following of Noldorin Exiles and dwelt for many years in Lorien” In Eregion Galadriel and Celeborn took part "in its defence against Sauron"
Above quotes are from Parma Eldalamberon 17 and Nature of Middle-earth.
In Unfinished Tales there's yet another wholly different version of Galadriel during the WotE&S where she apparently retreated from Eregion after its fall and "joined with Gil-Galad in Lindon". I should note that the Battle of Eregion was long, Sauron assaulted Eriador in 1695 and Eregion fell in 1697. Then three years later or so Sauron assaulted Lindon. So going by this other version of Galadriel where she retreated to Lindon, she most likely also fought in the rest of the War of the Elves and Sauron.
The argument that all Elf healers aren't warriors does not hold up. It's explicitly stated that this was some Elf belief, meaning not necessarily a truth/fact. Elrond fought in War of Wrath, War of the Elves and Sauron, and War of the Last Alliance, until he retired from warrior state in Third Age and yet he was the greatest healer. Beleg killed the enemies all the time 24/7 and yet he remained a great healer.
In Peoples of Middle-earth and Unfinished Tales and Morgoth's Ring everytime Tolkien describes young Galadriel he feels the need to write "she was (both physically and mentally) strong, brave" "she was valiant" etc. Also same thing can be seen often in Nature of Middle-earth. "She was called Nerwen ‘man-maiden’ because of her strength and stature, and her courage."
The assumption that Galadriel wasn't in the Last Alliance is just an assumption with no proof. We don't know where she was during the Last Alliance, Tolkien never specified where was Galadriel in late SA. Though it's too many times stated and pointed out she was willing to do her best against Sauron and Sauron himself thought of her as his chief enemy.
Also her desiring to avenge her brother is canon. It's stated Finrod was "of all her kin the nearest to her heart" and she "esteemed him and loved him". Finrod gave his life to save Beren against the werewolf that Sauron had sent to eat Beren in dungeons of Sauron. "She was sister of Finrod Felagund, Friend-of-Men, once king of Nargothrond, who gave his life to save Beren son of Barahir." - Appendix
'Aegnor is gone, Angrod is gone, and Felagund is no more. Of Finarfin's children I am the last. But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the Golden House of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar...' - Galadriel
"Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, "
"she deemed it her duty to remain in Middle-earth while Sauron was still unconquered" - UT
In the Shibboleth Galadriel is described as a loremaster as well.
In the Book of Lost Tales part 2 Idril fights in the Fall of Gondolin. In Shaping of Middle-earth Christopher says Idril was "the prototype of Galadriel".
Galadriel fighting at Alqualondë: "Galadriel’s quarrel with the sons of Fëanor at sack of Alqualondë. How she fought…" - Nature of Middle-earth
Note that the event of fighting at Alqualonde itself is described as a quarrel by Tolkien: "...Thrice the folk of Feanor were driven back, and many were slain upon either side; but the vanguard of the Noldor were succoured by Fingon with the foremost people of Fingolfin. These coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and they rushed in ere they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel: some deemed indeed that the Teleri had sought to waylay the march of the Noldor, at the bidding of the Valar."
There's a marginal note against this passage in Morgoth's Ring: "$149 Marginal note against the passage describing the involvement of the second host in the fighting: 'Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Feanor in defence of Alqualonde.' "
And in Shibboleth: "she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin."
Note that she wasn't the only female fighter at Alqualondë. Since we are told: "indeed in dire straits or desperate defence the Nissi [the Elf-women] fought valiantly" - Laws and Customs
But the difference between Galadriel and other Nissi was that she wasn't only brave, but she was also a leader and Amazon. "Galadriel, the fairest lady of the house of Finwë and the most valiant." - Morgoth's Ring "[Galadriel] was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats” - Tolkien Letter 348
“[Éowyn] was also not really a soldier or ‘amazon’, but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.” - The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter #244
The only women in Tolkien who are described as 'amazon' are Haleth (the warrior Queen/Chieftain of Haladin), the early versions of Eowyn in History of Lord of the Rings (she openly goes to war in those versions as opposed to the final version where she wasn't Amazon), Makar's sister the Valie/Goddess of War (from the Book of Lost Tales) and Galadriel. Tolkien translated the word Amazon into "Gothwin" in Elvish, but the literal translation of Gothwin is "War Woman".
"She looked upon the Dwarves also with the eye of a commander, seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs" - Unfinished Tales
Galadriel did fight in some wars against Angband like The Battle of the Lammoth and War of Wrath (implied but not explicitly stated). She was there in the Battle of the Lammoth and therefore fought (all elf women fight in such times of crisis), and according to History of Middle-earth Eonwë summoned all free people and birds and beasts to fight in War of Wrath, only cowards rejected his summons ("but the power and dread of Morgoth was great and many did not obey his summons"). Galadriel wasn't such. The reason Galadriel and Celeborn hadn't fought in previous battles against Angband is not because they weren't good warriors, the reason was... "they did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid; and their counsel was... " - Unfinished Tales
Nobody listened to their counsel about forming that alliance, and the Valar didn't send aid until War of Wrath, henceforth Celeborn and Galadriel thought it's useless if they waste their energy in that war as long as there's no hope. But when hope came, there was no reason for them to not join in the war. Even random Elves of Eriador answered the summons to fight when they heard of new come hope.
In the versions of Galadriel where her boyfriend/husband was from Doriath she also gone through some of the events of the Ruin of Beleriand (here it is never said if she had left Doriath before its fall and indeed it is stated she only crossed the mountains into Eriador in the Second Age and indeed it is even stated in a note about Celeborn that he was present in the sack of Doriath), all meaning/implying she was there in the Ruin of Doriath and the Third Kinslaying and such (as is also pointed out by Christopher Tolkien himself). We know female Elves fought in such times of crisis, even if they weren't Amazon.
In Second Age Galadriel was one of the war leaders of Eregion in the War of the Elves and Sauron. In the early versions Galadriel is not present in Eregion during the war (she was in Lorien), and it's her husband and Celebrimbor (and later Elrond) only who lead the armies of Eregion: "The scouts and vanguard of Sauron's host were already approaching when Celeborn made a sortie and drove them back; but though he was able to join his force to that of Elrond...." - Unfinished Tales
But in later essays and notes Galadriel is there right side-by-side with Celeborn: “Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria” “Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither [to Lorien] after the downfall of Eregion." “After the Fall of Eregion... They had passed through Moria with considerable following of Noldorin Exiles and dwelt for many years in Lorien” In Eregion Galadriel and Celeborn took part "in its defence against Sauron"
Above quotes are from Parma Eldalamberon 17 and Nature of Middle-earth.
In Unfinished Tales there's yet another wholly different version of Galadriel during the WotE&S where she apparently retreated from Eregion after its fall and "joined with Gil-Galad in Lindon". I should note that the Battle of Eregion was long, Sauron assaulted Eriador in 1695 and Eregion fell in 1697. Then three years later or so Sauron assaulted Lindon. So going by this other version of Galadriel where she retreated to Lindon, she most likely also fought in the rest of the War of the Elves and Sauron.
The argument that all Elf healers aren't warriors does not hold up. It's explicitly stated that this was some Elf belief, meaning not necessarily a truth/fact. Elrond fought in War of Wrath, War of the Elves and Sauron, and War of the Last Alliance, until he retired from warrior state in Third Age and yet he was the greatest healer. Beleg killed the enemies all the time 24/7 and yet he remained a great healer.
In Peoples of Middle-earth and Unfinished Tales and Morgoth's Ring everytime Tolkien describes young Galadriel he feels the need to write "she was (both physically and mentally) strong, brave" "she was valiant" etc. Also same thing can be seen often in Nature of Middle-earth. "She was called Nerwen ‘man-maiden’ because of her strength and stature, and her courage."
The assumption that Galadriel wasn't in the Last Alliance is just an assumption with no proof. We don't know where she was during the Last Alliance, Tolkien never specified where was Galadriel in late SA. Though it's too many times stated and pointed out she was willing to do her best against Sauron and Sauron himself thought of her as his chief enemy.
Also her desiring to avenge her brother is canon. It's stated Finrod was "of all her kin the nearest to her heart" and she "esteemed him and loved him". Finrod gave his life to save Beren against the werewolf that Sauron had sent to eat Beren in dungeons of Sauron. "She was sister of Finrod Felagund, Friend-of-Men, once king of Nargothrond, who gave his life to save Beren son of Barahir." - Appendix
'Aegnor is gone, Angrod is gone, and Felagund is no more. Of Finarfin's children I am the last. But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the Golden House of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar...' - Galadriel
"Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, "
"she deemed it her duty to remain in Middle-earth while Sauron was still unconquered" - UT
Seeing a young Galadriel in armour and fighting shouldn't be a surprise at all IMO, surprising what people take exception to. The Galadriel seen in TLOTR (book and film) is one that's already lived many lifetimes, she's a beast and it should be safely assumed she's taken part in battles in her time. I for one am looking forward to seeing that depiction.
That was the sort of gist I've been left with over the years. Again - it was striking to me to see her in full armour and kitted out, that wasn't the impression I was left with (which I suppose is from the above quotes!). A bit like Gandalf, I fancied her above that stuff to some degree. Which leads neatly to her TA role in Lorien.
Yup, it should be a really interesting progression story for her as it looks like we'll be picking up the story in the first episode at least from late First Age events. The potential for the show is massive, all down to whether they can hit the right notes with the narrative and dialogue. It's the dialogue that is my biggest concern as I think they're hitting the right notes with the visuals and character designs.
Yes, as I said in a post above, aping Tolkien dialogue with nothing to call upon is the scariest prospect.
Well, quite. We also see her in armour in the LOTR films but such is life.
The teaser looked better than I expected. The CGI climbing scene was bad, the rest was fine.
Incidentally, I looked this up on Youtube and it was like the seventh link. The first six were 20-40 minute "reaction" videos titled things like "the new Lord the Rings is woke garbage" and whatnot. Absolutely cursed website.
Incidentally, I looked this up on Youtube and it was like the seventh link. The first six were 20-40 minute "reaction" videos titled things like "the new Lord the Rings is woke garbage" and whatnot. Absolutely cursed website.
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Oh for sure, knee-jerk toxicity is the name of the game online these days no doubt.
Fingers and toes crossed to us both being wrong ey!
Reading through the Vanity Fair article you do come across this, which is at least a little promising. Lets hope they can pull it off.
That does bode well.
So they are also making a new Lord Of The Rings movie as well as the TV show.
How deep are they gonna mine Tolkiens work, for any excuse to make money.
How deep are they gonna mine Tolkiens work, for any excuse to make money.
Deep enough that they find the balrog!
Haven't heard of this?
Anime about the Rohirrim it seems.
Yup.
That dont sounds to bad actually
So I just saw this video...
Apparently Amazon set this up to undo some of the backlash(?) from last week... Seems to have landed about as well as PCP junkie jumping off the roof of a three story building to escape the cops. I mean, who in the world though bringing in influencers instead of actual fans of Tolkiens work to react to the trailer was a good idea?
Apparently Amazon set this up to undo some of the backlash(?) from last week... Seems to have landed about as well as PCP junkie jumping off the roof of a three story building to escape the cops. I mean, who in the world though bringing in influencers instead of actual fans of Tolkiens work to react to the trailer was a good idea?
Why would anyone click on that video.
Holy fecking shit. Who are these?
There a women in the trailer yay! And they even talk to each other! How great is that? So diverse!Also: Did this man-bun idiot really ask whether we'll see young Smeagol who was born in 2430 of the third age when the whole plot of the series is playing during the second age?
Good job Amazon. This would make Tolkien rotate in his grave.
Edit: The comments under the vid are pure gold
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The real problem here is how anyone can be "influenced" by these muppets
Internet gossip that Finrod was shown in the trailers.
Assumption is Finrod is the one shown battling the Orcs in the trailer. So most likely a flashback from the first age, and probably one of the two important battles he was involved in.
.
Wonder if they’ll show his death and then how that triggers Galadriel, leading on to the whole warrior princess arc.
I swear the likes of Disney, Amazon, Netflix, etc get off on ruining beloved franchises. There's no way every remake/reboot/revival has been this bad on accident. Star Wars sequels, LOTR, Death Note, Cowboy Bebop, Dragon Ball Evolution to name a few.
Yeah that’s what I think as well as
I don’t really see the point of them showing the battle in which he is saved by men (Barahir?)
You don't know if this one is going to turn out bad so it's a strange place to make a strange point to begin with.
Yeah, that's what's been suggested. It's also going to be in flashback scenes rather than a long prologue (ala FOTR).
From what I've read about the show so far and knowing the texts I'm cautiously optimistic that this will be better than the Hobbit at least. I actually don't understand the hate the trailer got, it seems like it's getting a lot of hate simply because it's an Amazon product rather than the show itself.
We live in a state of of perpetual outrage, where people are, seemingly, never happier than when they have something to complain about, or even have the anticipation of something to complain about it. People don't talk in the same way out of social media bubbles, and if they do they tend to be ones to avoid.
Amazon screwed up Wheel of Time badly, it may have done decent numbers but it is a mess of a show and a dreadful adaptation, has to be factor in the distrust.
We shall see
The comments are brilliant, yes!Holy fecking shit. Who are these?
Also: Did this man-bun idiot really ask whether we'll see young Smeagol who was born in 2430 of the third age when the whole plot of the series is playing during the second age?
Good job Amazon. This would make Tolkien rotate in his grave.
Edit: The comments under the vid are pure gold