The F1 Thread 2010 Season

Why should they screw over Massa.

Because they want to win the title and Ferrari think their best chance to win the title is with Alonso. It is a team sport after all and Massa was a true gentleman to play the team game.

Next year when they start on 0 points again Im sure both will be given an equal opportunity until it is clear that one of them has the better chance to win.
 
Seems pretty simple to me, when Massa can no longer win the title

The problem is what if he is a 100 points behind but has a mathematical chance of winning. It is cannot be black or white. Massa may have a mathematical chance of winning this year but his form shows no sign that he can.

Like I said I'd do the same.
 
Seems pretty simple to me, when Massa can no longer win the title

Germany 2008: Heikki Kovalainen lets McLaren team-mate Hamilton through so he can win the race following an error in team tactics

Was Heikki mathematically ruled out at this stage?
 
Because they want to win the title and Ferrari think their best chance to win the title is with Alonso. It is a team sport after all and Massa was a true gentleman to play the team game.

Next year when they start on 0 points again Im sure both will be given an equal opportunity until it is clear that one of them has the better chance to win.

He better be. Kimi let Massa through too. Din't see him sulking or complaining at that time. As you said, it's a team game.
 
Germany 2008: Heikki Kovalainen lets McLaren team-mate Hamilton through so he can win the race following an error in team tactics

Was Heikki mathematically ruled out at this stage?

No. That doesn't make that occasion ok, I can't fully remember the incident if I'm honest

My point is that there are circumstances when team orders should be permitted, yesterday in my opinion wasn't one of those
 
Where have you read this because to this autosport.com - F1 News: Whitmarsh to hold private Ferrari talks he has kept it between him and Ferrari.

Whitmarsh said:
I think having our drivers racing, in the longer term, is a healthy thing to do for this team. That is my decision and that is what we want to do. Others do what they want to do, and it is for the FIA and Ferrari to determine what they think is right. We were racing our two guys until the end of the race."

He said he did not want to comment publically on the issue.

"I don't want to get drawn into it," he added. "I have my own private views on it. They were quicker than us today; they got a 1-2, but perhaps in a different order from that which people may have thought was right. I will give my private views to Ferrari, but I don't want to go on record and express those views."

"All I know is the same as you. I heard what I heard, I saw what I saw, but it is for others to comment on. Ferrari were quick and we did what we could - and they raced how they raced. That was not a new approach from Ferrari, was it?"

So after he says he wont comment on it publicly he goes and does exactly that.

Worse yet is that slimy stooge Horner taking the moral high ground on team equality and allowing fair racing between team mates. Just don't mention those front wings eh Christian?
 
So after he says he wont comment on it publicly he goes and does exactly that.

Worse yet is that slimy stooge Horner taking the moral high ground on team equality and allowing fair racing between team mates. Just don't mention those front wings eh Christian?

Exactly. The most hypocritical thing about the whole situation was the Red Bull team bosses coming out and blasting Ferrari.
 
So after he says he wont comment on it publicly he goes and does exactly that.

Worse yet is that slimy stooge Horner taking the moral high ground on team equality and allowing fair racing between team mates. Just don't mention those front wings eh Christian?

Im not saying he hasnt said this just want to know where what I've read he doesn't say he would never do it.

Exactly. The most hypocritical thing about the whole situation was the Red Bull team bosses coming out and blasting Ferrari.

True im sure Mark Webber disagree with that little whining idiot Horner.
 
That's not the point though. It was said to be a performance booster and they gave it to Vettel and not Webber. That's worse than what Ferrari did.

If it hadn't have improved the car they would have ruined both's chances rather than just one, I'd guess that such incidents are fairly common practice too now that we're in the days with no testing.
 
That's not the point though. It was said to be a performance booster and they gave it to Vettel and not Webber. That's worse than what Ferrari did.

Highly debatable, that. They had one new front wing and they decided to give it to the guy who was in a better championship position. Teams quite frequently bring new parts to one car before another, McLaren have been doing it for years.
 
Formula 1's governing body, the FIA, should immediately assemble all the commissions, councils and empowered people required to cancel regulation 39.1 which prohibits team orders. It is unworkable and largely not policeable.

The fans, media, and sponsors are best placed to firmly control this one with their remote controls, attendance, words, and cash.

There are hundreds of shades of grey around the interpretation of what constitutes team orders and when it is acceptable through the season to start applying them.

But points won at the first race have the same value as those at the last race.

Watching two world-class sportsmen and a team principal, among others, having to fabricate stories around both this regulation and the circumstances of the German Grand Prix was excruciatingly painful and infuriating.
Eddie Jordan tracks down Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali

Eddie Jordan goes in hot pursuit of Ferrari boss

Of course Ferrari wanted Alonso to win the German Grand Prix; it's their only chance of salvaging something from this season.

They're off the back of three dismal races for various reasons, and Alonso was 21 points ahead of Massa having been performing comfortably better than the recovering Brazilian so far this season. I would have wanted the same, as would any other leading team on the grid.

So why on earth did Ferrari handle it so badly before, during and after the race? I'm afraid they deserve everything that is thrown at them.

Obviously, they never imagined Massa would be leading from Alonso, although he started on the cleaner side of the grid in third, otherwise they would have pre-empted and choreographed everything so much better. The fans and media are not stupid.

The radio discussions which were transmitted are very damning, with Massa's engineer Rob Smedley initially, as he always does, motivating and encouraging his man to drive faster still. Then he has to deliver the killer message which we all understood to mean let Alonso past.

On lap 49 it happened, and Massa made it very clear what was going on with a long lift between turns six and seven. No fumbling on the brakes, or sliding at the exit. Alonso was slightly faster after he went past, which is a good job as the 'slower' Massa was still pumping in some fast laps.

Massa should have either have said 'no', or done it with some conviction. After the stops on lap 23 Alonso was clearly quicker on hard tyres, but he fumbled his one chance of a genuine overtake by going the wrong side into Turn Seven.

I've seen a lot of this team strategy business and my strong advice to any established driver is to simply ignore the request, win the race, and handle the nuclear fallout afterwards. Otherwise you self-esteem and public credibility are finished. Mark Webber has a good handle on this,

Rule 39.1 was introduced after team orders by Ferrari at Austria in 2002 meant Michael Schumacher inherited the lead from team-mate Rubens Barrichello when the German already had a very healthy lead in the championship well before half season.

Back in 2002, Ferrari were fined $1m for team orders but only $100,000 on Sunday, right?

No, they were fined $500,000 with another $500,000 suspended for improper procedure on the podium when Schumacher pushed Barrichello onto the top step and gave him the trophy. At that time team orders were perceived and accepted as part of the history and normal operating procedure of a two-car F1 team.

Teams are obliged to run two cars in their fight for drivers' and manufacturers' titles - 24 one-car teams is not practical.

There are any number of ways a driver can be perceived to be assisted or disadvantaged within a team due to testing, parts supply, quality of personnel on each car, tyre and race strategies, fuel loads, pit stops, media releases, psychological and physical support, and many other aspects around running a grand prix car around the globe.

There are numerous occasions where one driver has had to support another and races and championships have been won or lost.

Massa had a 'long' pit stop in Brazil to help Raikkonen take the title in 2007. Kovalainen was often helping Hamilton at McLaren, Irvine assisted Schumacher at Ferrari which could well have lost him the title in 1999 after Schumacher broke his leg.

I could go on and on, taking you right back to the 1950s when drivers last stepped out of their cars mid-race to hand them over.

In Austria in 1986 at Bernie Ecclestone's Brabham, Derek Warwick had to get out of his car on the grid and they wheeled it forward for Riccardo Patrese whose car had failed on the way to the start!

A team operates its two cars in the best manner in order to win one or both titles, and that's the way it is, folks.

I just don't buy the 'what if somebody betted on that' line; people should understand that racing cars have punctures and crashes, or get changed around tactically, before they risk their money.

In Jerez 1997 we even had Williams and McLaren using their four cars against Ferrari.

Millions of fans will adore Alonso, millions more will despise him, and he doesn't give a fig.

He's a winning machine who's found his way from Asturias to already having two F1 championships in his pocket. Champion racing drivers are ruthless, selfish, complex people. If you're looking for someone to love or take on holiday then it's the wrong place to look.

I played the sportsmanlike and balanced role in my career because that's my nature, like Massa, and I significantly underperformed my potential. I could have done with some Schumacher and Alonso unreasonableness.

I remember very early in my race commentary on Sunday saying that the wrong Ferrari was in the lead with regard to the championship and it would be interesting to see how they sorted it.

Later we heard the radio calls followed by the lap 49 of 67 lead swap, plus the slowing down lap and podium procedure. At no time did we read a message that the incident would be investigated by the stewards after the race.

It's not unreasonable to think that the FIA were reacting to the post race furore.

Maybe that's unfair but they have a problem now. The $100,000 fine has been applied so the team are officially guilty of breaching the regulations. Surely the World Council can only add to that penalty at their yet-to-be announced hearing.

FIA president Jean Todt was of course the long-time boss of the Ferrari team, and his son manages Massa, but from the outset of his appointment he removed himself from an official role in any sporting enquiries.

In a few days' time we have the Hungarian GP, and Hockenheim will be an old story until the World Council meets.

I think Brundle sums up the situation well on his blog.
 
Highly debatable, that. They had one new front wing and they decided to give it to the guy who was in a better championship position. Teams quite frequently bring new parts to one car before another, McLaren have been doing it for years.

Er.. no? They had two new front wings, Vettel then broke his so they took Webber's away and gave it to Vettel.
 
May as well give up on the sport frankly is cars are told to stand to one side to let the other through. It's not what I call racing, never have, never will like nor understand it.

Someone mentioned earlier that teams should only have 1 driver. Frankly, I agree.
 
May as well give up on the sport frankly is cars are told to stand to one side to let the other through. It's not what I call racing, never have, never will like nor understand it.

Someone mentioned earlier that teams should only have 1 driver. Frankly, I agree.

So you'd be OK with 12 car races?
 
May as well give up on the sport frankly is cars are told to stand to one side to let the other through. It's not what I call racing, never have, never will like nor understand it.

Someone mentioned earlier that teams should only have 1 driver. Frankly, I agree.

Were you under the illusion before yesterday that it didn't happen?
 
Were you under the illusion before yesterday that it didn't happen?

I thought it had been curbed since the Schumacher incident, at least made more subtle. But having it as obvious as it was yesterday ruined all enjoyment I had for the race.

Whats the point of watching races if you no longer enjoy the outcome? It robs us of good racing (which is pretty rare in f1). Perhaps i'm over reacting, but you have teams like Red Bull and Mclaren who have been allowing their cars to race. If they now follow the Ferrari way, then it could be a pretty dull end of the season.

The FIA can't punish other teams now for doing this until they change the rules. So i'm expecting this to happen a fair bit in the last 8 races.
 
Whats the point of watching races if you no longer enjoy the outcome? It robs us of good racing (which is pretty rare in f1). Perhaps i'm over reacting, but you have teams like Red Bull and Mclaren who have been allowing their cars to race. If they now follow the Ferrari way, then it could be a pretty dull end of the season.

"Jenson. Save fuel please."

"Mark. Turn the engine down."
 
Changing subject but how shaky are the McLaren T-Cams of late, that onboard with Button in the race I thought it was going to fly off :lol:
 
"Jenson. Save fuel please."

"Mark. Turn the engine down."

Legitimate things to say, teams have been under filling cars to gain performance & turning engine down can relate to a host of things. I think you're reading a bit between the lines on those two points.
 
I thought it had been curbed since the Schumacher incident, at least made more subtle. But having it as obvious as it was yesterday ruined all enjoyment I had for the race.

Whats the point of watching races if you no longer enjoy the outcome? It robs us of good racing (which is pretty rare in f1). Perhaps i'm over reacting, but you have teams like Red Bull and Mclaren who have been allowing their cars to race. If they now follow the Ferrari way, then it could be a pretty dull end of the season.

The FIA can't punish other teams now for doing this until they change the rules. So i'm expecting this to happen a fair bit in the last 8 races.

I'm sure Webber agrees wholeheartedly.
 
If Button had done the same for Hamilton I'm positive no one would give a shit. Just because it's Ferrari (who I hate myself) and Alonso involved (who everyone seems to hate) it's been turned into something so big.

That's absolute horse shit to be fair

Obviously there's more history to the story when it's Ferrari, because they've been the most obvious and blatant culprits of this in the past, forcing the need to have such a rule

In a sensible, ideal world, I personally think drivers should race without orders until the last few races of the season, at which point obviously title matters would take over, and I don't think spectators would object

Just imagine how dull and insipid this season would have been to date, if McClaren insisted Button move over for Hamilton, and Webber move over for Prost. It robs the fans and spectators of genuine action, it's sacrilege to the good of the sport itself. We want to see a good, honest race with drivers working hard to beat their rivals. And there are no greater rivals than team mates, and some of the most dramatic moments in F1 have come from drivers in the same team taking each other on

It's been turned into something big, because it IS something big
 
That's absolute horse shit to be fair

Obviously there's more history to the story when it's Ferrari, because they've been the most obvious and blatant culprits of this in the past, forcing the need to have such a rule

In a sensible, ideal world, I personally think drivers should race without orders until the last few races of the season, at which point obviously title matters would take over, and I don't think spectators would object

Just imagine how dull and insipid this season would have been to date, if McClaren insisted Button move over for Hamilton, and Webber move over for Prost. It robs the fans and spectators of genuine action, it's sacrilege to the good of the sport itself. We want to see a good, honest race with drivers working hard to beat their rivals. And there are no greater rivals than team mates, and some of the most dramatic moments in F1 have come from drivers in the same team taking each other on

It's been turned into something big, because it IS something big

Not that I disagree with the sentiment, but what do you think of drivers being told to hold station and not try to overtake their team mate? It's the same deal, no?
 
Not that I disagree with the sentiment, but what do you think of drivers being told to hold station and not try to overtake their team mate? It's the same deal, no?

I'd say it depends on circumstances Nick. In the main, if we're talking the final few laps, it's fair enough the team makes sure both cars make it to the end. If the car behind is significantly faster that the other maybe that changes

Take this example because I'm completely unbias: I think what Jordan did with Hill and R Schumacher was absolutely wrong. I understand it's a team without a win to their name, and they just wanted to make sure they won the race (imagine if they'd tripped over each other!) but it was against the spirit of the contest

We want to watch racing at the end of the day. F1 becomes a sham if the race result is manipulated in such a way
 
Fair enough mate, I understand the point and fundamentally agree, but I think there are times where team orders are 'acceptable' in what is at the end of the day a team sport.
 
I'd say it depends on circumstances Nick. In the main, if we're talking the final few laps, it's fair enough the team makes sure both cars make it to the end. If the car behind is significantly faster that the other maybe that changes

Take this example because I'm completely unbias: I think what Jordan did with Hill and R Schumacher was absolutely wrong. I understand it's a team without a win to their name, and they just wanted to make sure they won the race (imagine if they'd tripped over each other!) but it was against the spirit of the contest

We want to watch racing at the end of the day. F1 becomes a sham if the race result is manipulated in such a way

I disagree completely.
 
Why should they screw over Massa he was in the lead Alonso should have taken him but had to whinge like he always does these days to get his own way. You can argue all you want still but Massa still has a chance to win the title a small one but still a chance. Massa had a life threatening injury last year and is still getting back in to his grove Ferrari do this to him.

Seems pretty simple to me, when Massa can no longer win the title

Like it or not, Formula 1 is a business. And business owners and managers will make decisions to obtain maximum output. Massa moved over willingly since he probably has a clause in his contract which allows for this. I would imagine this being the case for Alonso as well. The maximum output was to give Alonso the win to keep realistically challenging for the title. I worked out the math in an earlier point, even if Massa won he'd still be 60 points behind with just over 200 points available. That is a very long shot.
 
I'd say it depends on circumstances Nick. In the main, if we're talking the final few laps, it's fair enough the team makes sure both cars make it to the end. If the car behind is significantly faster that the other maybe that changes

Take this example because I'm completely unbias: I think what Jordan did with Hill and R Schumacher was absolutely wrong. I understand it's a team without a win to their name, and they just wanted to make sure they won the race (imagine if they'd tripped over each other!) but it was against the spirit of the contest

We want to watch racing at the end of the day. F1 becomes a sham if the race result is manipulated in such a way

Well then I feel sorry for you, by your definition it has been sham for decades then. Just because it was made obvious does not mean it hasn't happened in the past regularly. You've just been oblivious to it.
 
Like DC said....playing the team game has been the foundations of the sport. It is part of the sport. Always has been. Always will be. Weather its officially allowed or not.
 
Flex your end plates people

Red Bull and now Ferrari have got it working, you can really see the differance when compared to the Mclaren's wing which is rigid.
 
Red Bull and now Ferrari have got it working, you can really see the differance when compared to the Mclaren's wing which is rigid.

It definitely does look blatant when you see it like that, but they have cleared them haven't they