Confirmed - $100.000 fine for Ferrari but the result stands.
The F1 Thread 2010 Season
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
hmmm further consideration it says...is that a get out of jail card, or mean they are in trouble.
If the stewards say that they broke the rules then the WMSC will definitely be singing from the same hymn sheet. I'd expect some sanctions on Ferrari from this.
For now
Any other team would have lost points/positions IMO.
I forgot Jean Todt as head of FIA
Wow, 151C is the rule McLaren were penalised under with the spygate saga, and I believe the same when Hamilton and Ryan lied to the stewards? Should be interesting to see what the WMSC do now..
The humourous thing is that Ferarri will try to defend this by lying through their back teeth, pretending no orders were given! Welcome back to the era of rigged racing. The fans turned against it before, and they'll turn against it again
Like the other times teams have been punished for it? This is groundbreaking so let's not suggest Ferrari are still favoured.
No love for Ferrari, after the way they dealt with him in the end...hence the initial fine, and then the referral to the higher sports body.
Of course Ferrari have excellent lawyers, and will look for loopholes, but the law is a one liner, with not a lot of wriggle room.
This result must be in serious doubt.
What all this has masked is the other interesting issue that was developing, with the apparent flexing of the Ferrari and Red Bull front wings
While we all know that the result was "rigged" there was no direct order given. All Massa was told was that Alonso is much faster.
So it's not exactly an "order".
Oh and were McLaren punished when Kovailinen let Hamilton pass him by?
So it's not exactly an "order".
Oh and were McLaren punished when Kovailinen let Hamilton pass him by?
I remember it, what race was that, what were the circumstances, as there are acceptable times when you can let a teammate past in this manner if you ask me
Today wasn't one of them
Yes but they're not true, so it's not really important, the referral is great news for everyone bar Ferrari.
It is an order when after the notice Massa was told very sternly: "I need you to confirm that you understand this"
A standard message of team mate being faster would be followed by what Massa should be doing to match the pace of Alonso. Not told that he needs to understand it.
Simple data analysis on the lap times will back up that the corner and lap that Massa let him past was an anomaly to the rest of his times. Plain as day as well when Massa doesn't even attempt to block him.
The line of Massa allowed him through can be simply argued that what kind of racer allows a driver, most of all his team mate, through to take the lead of a race that they were comfortably winning.
It's bullshit, fixing and cheating. Pure and simple.
To be honest there is no time it's acceptable that one driver lets the other go through. Even if one driver is bottom of the drivers standings and his team mate is leading the championship.
And Kimi did it for Massa and no one cared then.
We know that. Everyone knows that. But Ferrari can easily deny it. We all know that the only thing they said was "Alonso is faster. Do you understand". During no point did they specifically tell Massa to back off. So Ferrari will get away with it.
Hmm sounds quite similar to the Brazillian GP two years back when Hamilton won the championship on the last corner when the guy in the Toyota (also his great friend) let him by no? Now I'm not saying that was rigged but the guy in the toyota (just can't remember who he was) lost an astonishing amount of time on the last lap to let Hamilton past him at the last corner and help him win the title.
They wont get away with it, if the stewards have found them in breach of the rules the WMSC aren't going to ignore that ruling.
Hmm sounds quite similar to the Brazillian GP two years back when Hamilton won the championship on the last corner when the guy in the Toyota (also his great friend) let him by no? Now I'm not saying that was rigged but the guy in the toyota (just can't remember who he was) lost an astonishing amount of time on the last lap to let Hamilton past him at the last corner and help him win the title.
Why are you do determined to bring up Hamilton in this.
Well they have great lawyers and I'm sure they'll deny any orders being as given...since, well no orders were given.
Hmm sounds quite similar to the Brazillian GP two years back when Hamilton won the championship on the last corner when the guy in the Toyota (also his great friend) let him by no? Now I'm not saying that was rigged but the guy in the toyota (just can't remember who he was) lost an astonishing amount of time on the last lap to let Hamilton past him at the last corner and help him win the title.
he ran out of fuel...barely limped to the finish line. They checked his car, because comments such as yours came up.
The reason given was he lost grip on his tyres and was struggling to finish
Anyway Should not have brought that up. But honestly, Ferrari will get away with it. They were smart enough not to openly tell Massa to back off.
One thing is for sure, Hamilton, Button, Vettel or Webber certainly won't be getting any team orders now
You're missing the point is that the stewards have established that they've given team orders, so much so that they have fined them. WMSC cannot overlook that crucial information.
Hmm I think if they had to punish them they would have just disqualified them both. Well lets see what happens.
How long can the procedure drag out with appeals and counter appeals and stuff?
Hmm sounds quite similar to the Brazillian GP two years back when Hamilton won the championship on the last corner when the guy in the Toyota (also his great friend) let him by no? Now I'm not saying that was rigged but the guy in the toyota (just can't remember who he was) lost an astonishing amount of time on the last lap to let Hamilton past him at the last corner and help him win the title.
This is really embarrasing for you mate. I can't believe people still bring this up! The Toyota in question was miles behind Hamilton with a few laps to go, when the rain came. It took the gamble of not pitting for the correct tyres, whille everyone else came in. This actually GAVE Massa a chance of winning the title, which hadn't existed prior to the change in weather conditions. And shock horror, as conditions worsened, the Toyota struggled and eventually Hamilton overtook again
Conspiracy theories aint what they used to be. And what possible relevance this has to what happened today, when Ferrari carried out team orders to decide the race outcome, is beyond me
This is really embarrasing for you mate. I can't believe people still bring this up! The Toyota in question was miles behind Hamilton with a few laps to go, when the rain came. It took the gamble of not pitting for the correct tyres, whille everyone else came in. This actually GAVE Massa a chance of winning the title, which hadn't existed prior to the change in weather conditions. And shock horror, as conditions worsened, the Toyota struggled and eventually Hamilton overtook again
Conspiracy theories aint what they used to be. And what possible relevance this has to what happened today, when Ferrari carried out team orders to decide the race outcome, is beyond me
Lewis's friend let him win....quite embarassing to deny it. The incident was exactly the same as he slowed so much immediately after a corner that it couldn't have been for any other reason.
Team orders exist in F1 - that's the ugly truth. If Mclaren were in the last few races with Lewis needing to get ahead of Button to win the title, they would do the same
So would Red Bull or any other team in the pit lane.
I know what happens when you're driving a car with the wrong tyres in the rain. Its extremely difficult to get it turned into a corner let alone at speed. Glock simply didn't have any grip and when you have no grip you can't drive quickly let alone try to defend a corner.
I do love the conspiracy theories though.
Christ on a bike, this shit is embarrassing.
The tin hat brigade are out and proud today!
I doubt it, the well known "Red car can do as it pleases" rule always trumps anything else.
If I'd bet on Massa to win I'd be pretty furious.
I can tell you don't watch F1 much do you?
This is as stupid as the claim that Glock let Hamilton pass him.
In the years since the team orders rule was introduced we have seen countless examples of it being ignored, everyone it the pit lane acknowledges it, it is plain as day in plenty of cases, and yet this is the first time a team is pulled up on it. That first penalty goes to Ferrari and still this crap is wheeled out, take your tin foil hat off.
Nick, tell us some of the examples, where with no pit stops left to make, a team manipulated the result by changing the order of its drivers via team orders? During the race on different strategies is very different, I'm struggling to recall any blatant incidents like today
Whether Ferrari are still being favoured I doubt, there have been changes at the top of the FIA, and changes at the top of Ferarri. They've had some things go harshly against them in recent times in fairness. No doubt it used to occur, but I don't think it's an issue here anyway, the stewards found them guilty and the matter has been referred
And all this for what? Ferrari could simply have let them race, Alonso might even have overtaken anyway, the spectators would have enjoyed the contest, and all the focus would have been of Ferrari's resurgence. I guess the indulgence of Fernando Alonso has to come above all that eh
Whether Ferrari are still being favoured I doubt, there have been changes at the top of the FIA, and changes at the top of Ferarri. They've had some things go harshly against them in recent times in fairness. No doubt it used to occur, but I don't think it's an issue here anyway, the stewards found them guilty and the matter has been referred
And all this for what? Ferrari could simply have let them race, Alonso might even have overtaken anyway, the spectators would have enjoyed the contest, and all the focus would have been of Ferrari's resurgence. I guess the indulgence of Fernando Alonso has to come above all that eh
I know what happens when you're driving a car with the wrong tyres in the rain. Its extremely difficult to get it turned into a corner let alone at speed. Glock simply didn't have any grip and when you have no grip you can't drive quickly let alone try to defend a corner.
I do love the conspiracy theories though.
Glock would have received a nice Christmas gift from Mclaren and Lewis. The team that would sink as low as spying and lying through their teeth would have done anything for a championship win.
Mclaren should have been banned from F1 after spygate. 100 million in fine is just a rap on the knuckles.
So Glock having no grip on the wrong tyres is the same as this?
EDIT: here you can see him clearrly struggling to get power down.
I'm with Brad on this one, there will have been orders in this time without a shadow of doubt but the important thing here is how blatant this was in comparison to others, I'm sure most others at least pretend to fight for the place even without any intent on keeping it.
So you think its only of benefit to be let past if its when theres no pit stops left? Come on Brad, if someone is losing half a second a lap but can't pass and then is let go its of massive benefit regardless of how far is left.
But anyway, the only point I was making was that it's ludicrous to claim Ferrari are being favoured by the FIA in the face of this.
And yes, Alonso has really shown himself up here, I had started to warm to him slightly since 07 but he's reminded me why I disliked him so much.
So it's ok to break the rule if you're subtle about it? Nah, you either break it or you don't.
I agree on that, what I am saying is that others you can't tell what is orders and what isn't, we don't have access to all radio's all race so we cant say, however in this case they must act due to the lack of subtlety in the whole manoeuvre.
The FIA have access though, and as we said earlier Ferrari didn't tell Massa to let him pass but we all knew what the message really meant, others will be similar if probably a little more subtle, it's still pretty clear what's going on.