I'd say its a good technical find by Red Bull, it will be quickly copied too.
The F1 Thread 2010 Season
- Thread starter EZee
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
Yeah because Massa is in as great a position as Button right now.
While I agree it should be not happening, if your punishing Ferrari for this then you should very well punish Mclaren for all that they've done in terms of team orders themselves in the last 2 years.
All they've done? Care to name some examples?
The one mentioned before by Nick was Hockenheim 2008. I've brought myself back up to speed, the circumstances were quite different, and I actually have no problem with it. Hamilton had come into the pits from first, and came out in 5th, on a completely different strategy from Kovalainen (due to a safety car incident), who he came out behind. Much the faster car, Kovalainen let Hamilton straight through, and in the 15 laps remaining Hamilton overtook all his rivals and won the race
The different, and problem people have with what happened this weekend (and it's not an anti Ferrari thing, Coulthard and Hakinnen did similar and cause the same uproar, simply because people don't like calve ups) is that Ferrari ordered a driver to let his team mate through to win the race. That's not a case of different strategies, it's fixing a race result. People can bark on about F1 being a business, and it being a team sport, and yes it is... but first and foremost its an entertainment spectacle, it could not operate without the supporters, and they do not like being treated as mugs. This is a relative one off in recent times, all season long the major players have allowed their drivers to race. So it's something of a flash in the pan, obviously the blatant naure of it made things worse too. But if it keeps happening over the season, you'll simply find people switch off, because they don't want to watch fixed racing. What's the point in Felippe Massa if he's not allowed to win? Poor bastard was on for victory a year to the day since his huge accident
If Hamilton had some out in that same scenario behind someone who was not his team mate he wouldn't have been let past just because of being on a different strategy. Not to mention that if there were only 15 laps left I very much doubt either of them would have been pitting again (I can't remember) and so strategy would be irrelevant at that point because they'd both have been fueled to finish.
And whether a driver lets his team mate pass him for the win, third place or eighth place, it's still manipulating the result, so I don't buy the argument that it's worse because it involved the win.
And whether a driver lets his team mate pass him for the win, third place or eighth place, it's still manipulating the result, so I don't buy the argument that it's worse because it involved the win.
I'd have thought it was quite obvious how letting your team mate quickly pass so he can make up four further positions and win the race, is different to ordering one of your cars aside to let the other win, because he's not able to pass you in terms of pace
This story has been bent somewhat into an anti-Ferrari tirade in some areas of the media, and it's not that at all. I'd be equally pissed if Red Bull or McClaren had done the same. It ruins the racing, and robs fans of genuine wheel to wheel action. Button and Hamilton have shown how it can be done this season (and obviously Webber and Vettel have shown where it can go wrong!)
This story has been bent somewhat into an anti-Ferrari tirade in some areas of the media, and it's not that at all. I'd be equally pissed if Red Bull or McClaren had done the same. It ruins the racing, and robs fans of genuine wheel to wheel action. Button and Hamilton have shown how it can be done this season (and obviously Webber and Vettel have shown where it can go wrong!)
I'm just saying that if it wasn't his team mate he'd not have been let past, so it's still a team order. The outcome isn't the same but that's irrelevant per the rule. I'm not saying they are of equal standing for a minute.
Button and Hamilton was miscommunication and actually the screwing up of a team order because we heard from Lewis's own mouth that he'd been assured that if he slowed down to save fuel Button would not try to overtake him.
Button and Hamilton was miscommunication and actually the screwing up of a team order because we heard from Lewis's own mouth that he'd been assured that if he slowed down to save fuel Button would not try to overtake him.
Already done that some pages back:
Monaco 2007: McLaren order Lewis Hamilton not to challenge Fernando Alonso for the race win
Brazil 2007: Ferrari manipulate Felipe Massa's pit stop toput Kimi Raikkonen into the lead so he can win the world title
Germany 2008: Heikki Kovalainen lets McLaren team-mate Hamilton through so he can win the race following an error in team tactics --- I can just imagine the outrage in this forum when this happened
Singapore 2008: Renault order Nelson Piquet to crash to cause a safety car period that helps Alonso win
China 2008: Raikkonen hands Massa second place behind Hamilton so he is in a better championship position heading into the final race
So yeah Mclaren have issued "team orders" twice since 07
They've done it more than that. The ordering of cars to 'hold station' is commonplace; it will happen almost any time cars on in consecutive positions unless there is a very big difference in speeds which could cause problems with letting other cars catch up. Just because Monaco 07 led to such a public rift between Hamilton and Alonso it is blown out of proportion as if it is a really big thing when it's not.
When Hamilton and Button were wheel to wheel a few races back when Hamilton was assured Button would not challenge him if he started preserving fuel but Button didn't get the message. These instructions probably happen every race weekend.
Yeah true. That fuel thing happened at Turkey this year right?
If Ferrari is going to get punished for it then all the mentioned incidents should be punished now as well. But ofcourse since Mclaren here is a british team with British drivers no one gives a shit.
Already done that some pages back:
Monaco 2007: McLaren order Lewis Hamilton not to challenge Fernando Alonso for the race win
Brazil 2007: Ferrari manipulate Felipe Massa's pit stop toput Kimi Raikkonen into the lead so he can win the world title
Germany 2008: Heikki Kovalainen lets McLaren team-mate Hamilton through so he can win the race following an error in team tactics --- I can just imagine the outrage in this forum when this happened
Singapore 2008: Renault order Nelson Piquet to crash to cause a safety car period that helps Alonso win
China 2008: Raikkonen hands Massa second place behind Hamilton so he is in a better championship position heading into the final race
So yeah Mclaren have issued "team orders" twice since 07
Monaco 2007 is a decent example, although it's not in the last two years like you claimed. This was the FIA conclusion:
2007 Monaco Grand Prix
Again, there's a huge difference between making sure your two cars get home safely towards the end of a race, and deliberately switching your drivers purely so one can win, and one can come second. And obviously the FIA and stewards recognise this, given McClaren were found not guilty, and Ferrari have been fined and referred to the council
Nothing wrong with Germany 2008, already been discussed in detail, McClaren has the faster driver quickly through so he could set about making up four further places and winning the race
I don't have that much issue with Ferrari in 2008 either, I personally think at that stage in the season with a few races of the season left, it's much more understandable and acceptable to the fans that championship matters take precedence. According to FIA rules that still is forbidden though. We're just past the mid season point, and it's not theoretically impossible Massa could win the title if he put three or four back to back wins together and put himself right back up there.
Singapore was something quite different and off the scale compared to anything we're talking about here. That was race fixing and endangering the safety of the drivers too
Funny people keep on mentioning Mclaren no one give a shit you look over the last 5 years the so called British team Mclaren have been punished more by the FIA then most with spying/lying/team orders all that shit when every team is as bad as each other when it comes to those sort of things. My biggest problem is what Martin Brundle said its the way Ferrari did it not very classy badly handled.
Back to the racing I keep reading Mclaren are gonna stuggle at the Hungaroring they need this 3 week (or is it 4 week) after this race they they can start to catch up.
The Spygate saga was so deep routed and badly managed by McLaren, I don't think the FIA had any choice but to come down on them for it.
And much like people use the excuse that 'everyone does it' for this team orders thing, you think McClaren have been the only ones getting info they shouldn't have access too off their rivals?
Anyone remember the old F1 manager game of the mid 90's, where you could either develop your own parts, or pay an agent to steal the technology off other teams?
Anyone remember the old F1 manager game of the mid 90's, where you could either develop your own parts, or pay an agent to steal the technology off other teams?
It was badly handled I agree just like Ferrari now with this team orders incident badly handled they all do it just like with spygate just Mclaren got caught.
BBC Sport - F1 - I am not a number two, says Massa
I am not a number two, says Massa
Felipe Massa insists he is not playing second fiddle to Fernando Alonso despite controversy surrounding the Ferrari drivers in Germany last Sunday.
The Italian team appeared to give Massa a coded order to allow Alonso through to win, for which they have been fined.
But Massa says he is still on an equal footing: "The time I say I am a number two driver, I will not race any more."
"I've spoken to everyone inside the [Ferrari] team - and I'm not just here to race, I'm here to win.
---
What can you say about that! Poor Massa is in a fantasy land
I am not a number two, says Massa
Felipe Massa insists he is not playing second fiddle to Fernando Alonso despite controversy surrounding the Ferrari drivers in Germany last Sunday.
The Italian team appeared to give Massa a coded order to allow Alonso through to win, for which they have been fined.
But Massa says he is still on an equal footing: "The time I say I am a number two driver, I will not race any more."
"I've spoken to everyone inside the [Ferrari] team - and I'm not just here to race, I'm here to win.
---
What can you say about that! Poor Massa is in a fantasy landMassa knows what to do for the team.
He benefitted himself earlier. Now he'll help the team
Despite what he says
He benefitted himself earlier. Now he'll help the team
Despite what he says
BBC Sport - F1 - I am not a number two, says Massa
I am not a number two, says Massa
Felipe Massa insists he is not playing second fiddle to Fernando Alonso despite controversy surrounding the Ferrari drivers in Germany last Sunday.
The Italian team appeared to give Massa a coded order to allow Alonso through to win, for which they have been fined.
But Massa says he is still on an equal footing: "The time I say I am a number two driver, I will not race any more."
"I've spoken to everyone inside the [Ferrari] team - and I'm not just here to race, I'm here to win.
---
Well, hasn't Alonso been saying there's no No1 at Ferrari
im actually going to watch practise tomorrow which is unusual for me but im on the night shift and have feckall else to do tomorrow morning
And much like people use the excuse that 'everyone does it' for this team orders thing, you think McClaren have been the only ones getting info they shouldn't have access too off their rivals?
Anyone remember the old F1 manager game of the mid 90's, where you could either develop your own parts, or pay an agent to steal the technology off other teams?
Of course they're not the only ones, but most of them aren't dumb enough to take documents to a public copy shop! Not to mention all the denials they tried, they strung themselves up with that whole thing.
Massa's towing the party line there, no great shock really, if he'd got the points advantage over the dolmeo man rather than the other way around then he'd be getting the preferential treatment like he did in 08.
Practice sessions are great when you're there, not that good on tv though.
Nah, they're boring as feck when you're there, too.
Practice sessions were immensely boring in the F1 games too.
I disagree, the commentry is much, much better. You learn an awful lot listening to the pair of them.
the commentry is actually pretty good i must say!
trulli being pushed back in, loads of smoke coming from the car. possibly overheating
button reporting low grip on the track
trulli being pushed back in, loads of smoke coming from the car. possibly overheating
button reporting low grip on the track
Ferraris don't look so strong this weekend. I'm predicting the Red Bulls to run away with this race. Vettels in form so he'll get the win.
I only caught the last 5mins, what happened to Hamilton?
I only caught the last 5mins, what happened to Hamilton?
hamilton was not happy with the balance of the car at all, kept going in to change things but couldnt get anything to work at all
track temp 32 degrees and humidity is 59%
getting ready for the second session. button was having suspension problems earlier,
some team news:
red bulls - running same wings and no f duct this weekend, they say its not needed
mercedes - playing around with wings, running hockenheim wing now
mclaren - hamilton not happy with balance, button is happy running an upgraded floor, both running f duct unlike red bull
ferrari - massa decided to remove f duct, alonso has it on and they are running comparisons and thinking of running a flexi front wing
interesting tactics with the f duct so far
getting ready for the second session. button was having suspension problems earlier,
some team news:
red bulls - running same wings and no f duct this weekend, they say its not needed
mercedes - playing around with wings, running hockenheim wing now
mclaren - hamilton not happy with balance, button is happy running an upgraded floor, both running f duct unlike red bull
ferrari - massa decided to remove f duct, alonso has it on and they are running comparisons and thinking of running a flexi front wing
interesting tactics with the f duct so far
button radio : "oh the traffics a nightmare!"
a lot of cars drifting wide on corners today
a lot of them heading onto option tyres now
I enjoyed them, good chance for photos too.
If I do ever watch the practice it's on the sly at work so I don't have commentary on, perhaps I'd enjoy it more with sound rather than just watching the stream and times.
Surprising. It's your first chance to see the cars of the weekend. Just seeing how fast the cars actually go and the scale of noise they make is enough to entertain me! Not that I've ever seen a practice session, I've been to three GP but always just for qualifying and the race itself
And of course this being Hungary, there isn't likely to be much more excitement on offer over the weekend than that anyway
Unless it pisses down
Qualifying about to start. Red Bull are just going to stand there with their legs apart cockslapping the rest of the field.
graphic, but yea they should be doing.Posibility of losing one of the Maccas in Q2?
Or even Q1?!?!
Looks like Mclaren will be fighting with Renault, Williams and Merc for 5th.