The F1 Thread 2010 Season

phelans shorts said:
So Glock having no grip on the wrong tyres is the same as this? :lol::lol::lol:
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Massa was losing pace on the hard tyres and was struggling. It was proven by the fact that Vettel closed down a 7 sec gap in 15 laps - that's the kind of rationalization that Lewis fanboi's are providing for Glock letting Lewis through.

Of all the times that it could have happened:
It was on the last race of the season
It was on the last lap of the race
It was the exact no. of points that Lewis needed to win the title
It was the exact person that Lewis needed in that postion - his best mate in the pit lane ahead of him
It was the same team who had a proven history of cheating and taking illegal advantage by making payments to members of other teams

Too much of a coincidence.
 
Instant Karma said:
Massa was losing pace on the hard tyres and was struggling. It was proven by the fact that Vettel closed down a 7 sec gap in 15 laps - that's the kind of rationalization that Lewis fanboi's are providing for Glock letting Lewis through.

Of all the times that it could have happened:
It was on the last race of the season
It was on the last lap of the race
It was the exact no. of points that Lewis needed to win the title
It was the exact person that Lewis needed in that postion - his best mate in the pit lane ahead of him
It was the same team who had a proven history of cheating and taking illegal advantage by making payments to members of other teams

Too much of a coincidence.
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So the fact that Massa was in traffic wouldn't slow him down?

As has been stated Glock staying on those tyres could have very easily cost Lewis the title, he put Lewis below were he needed to be, plus the mere fact that you can hear that the engine is trying and struggling to put the power down kinda works against that.
 
Instant Karma said:
Massa was losing pace on the hard tyres and was struggling. It was proven by the fact that Vettel closed down a 7 sec gap in 15 laps - that's the kind of rationalization that Lewis fanboi's are providing for Glock letting Lewis through.

Of all the times that it could have happened:
It was on the last race of the season
It was on the last lap of the race
It was the exact no. of points that Lewis needed to win the title
It was the exact person that Lewis needed in that postion - his best mate in the pit lane ahead of him
It was the same team who had a proven history of cheating and taking illegal advantage by making payments to members of other teams

Too much of a coincidence.
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So Trulli in the same car same tyres what did he just decide to play along and slow down as well.
 
R_Nick said:
So you think its only of benefit to be let past if its when theres no pit stops left? Come on Brad, if someone is losing half a second a lap but can't pass and then is let go its of massive benefit regardless of how far is left. .
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I don't think there's any problem with someone letting their team mate past if they're on a different strategy, no. This is very different, this is rigging the race result. Perhaps the line of distinction is too blurred and needs better defining, it's not a black and white issue. It's vital to the integrity of the spectacle that Ferrari, nor anyone else who chooses to do it, is punished for breaking the team orders rule that was created for this very reason
 
Instant Karma said:
Massa was losing pace on the hard tyres and was struggling. It was proven by the fact that Vettel closed down a 7 sec gap in 15 laps - that's the kind of rationalization that Lewis fanboi's are providing for Glock letting Lewis through.

Of all the times that it could have happened:
It was on the last race of the season
It was on the last lap of the race
It was the exact no. of points that Lewis needed to win the title
It was the exact person that Lewis needed in that postion - his best mate in the pit lane ahead of him
It was the same team who had a proven history of cheating and taking illegal advantage by making payments to members of other teams

Too much of a coincidence.
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I can't stand Hamilton and I still recognise that you're talking absolute arse.
 
Lads seriously, don't give the crack pot the time of day! You'll always get conspiracy theorist nutters and there's probably nothing you could say that will change their outlook. They believe what they want to believe

The rest of us know precisely why the Toyota overtook in the first place (he gambled he could make up places by not pitting for wet tyres) and why Hamilton got past again (because he had the wrong tyres on having not pitted for wets!)
 
B Cantona said:
I don't think there's any problem with someone letting their team mate past if they're on a different strategy, no. This is very different, this is rigging the race result. Perhaps the line of distinction is too blurred and needs better defining, it's not a black and white issue. It's vital to the integrity of the spectacle that Ferrari, nor anyone else who chooses to do it, is punished for breaking the team orders rule that was created for this very reason
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But others have done it without it being strategy based, this isn't a new phenomenon. It's accepted as fairly common practice as we heard from the pundits and members of the pit lane this afternoon. Is it right? No, but it's not new, and the rule was something of a knee jerk reaction to the Austria incident with MS, it's unmanagable.
 
R_Nick said:
But others have done it without it being strategy based, this isn't a new phenomenon. It's accepted as fairly common practice as we heard from the pundits and members of the pit lane this afternoon. Is it right? No, but it's not new, and the rule was something of a knee jerk reaction to the Austria incident with MS, it's unmanagable.
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It's not right

It's against the rules

It's against the spirit of the spectacle

If Red Bull and McClaren had done it this season, we'd have had a boring as hell championship. Ferrari have thrown the sport back to the grim days where interest wained in the face of dull predictinle races which ended in carlve ups

Looking forward to Top Gear on iPlayer. There's a Senna film this autumn, and by random I borrowed my mums book on him yesterday. I can still remember watching that weekend as a kid, didn't seem real. We shouldn't forget Senna wasn't the only driver killed at Imola that race weekend. Thank goodness for safety improvements in F1, how different say Webbers incident might have been without them
 
Some Alonso material from the post-race press conference:

Q: (Ian Gordon - News of the World) Fernando, you said after Valencia that the race had been manipulated in favour of Lewis. Those words seem a bit hollow now. Where will this victory rank in your career, is it up there with Singapore 2008?
FA: I think you have a very strong result from Ferrari today, one and two, a very strong performance all weekend and if the final thought of the weekend is your question it's because maybe you didn't see the whole practice, qualifying and the race, so maybe it's too early for you that Ferrari came back so strong.

Q: (Ian Gordon - News of the World) Team orders are banned in Formula One. They were banned in 2002, that was blatant team orders.
FA: Sure.

Q: (Ian Gordon - News of the World) Eddie Jordan just said that you two should be kicked out of the race.
FA: Again, if this is the final thought of the weekend for you, I think it is because you didn't see the performance of the team and the performance from our car this weekend.

Q: (Juha Päätalo - Financial Times Germany) Fernando, I think we all know what happened on lap 48 and we don't need any fairy tales about tyres or anything to be clear of that. I just want to ask you, because in 2006 in Monza you said that Formula One is not a sport any more for you but was that which we saw today a sport?
FA: I think we tried to do our race, we tried to do as good as we can. We are professional drivers, we try to work in a team and we try to do the best we can every day, not only here on the track but also between the races, at the factory etc, preparing the races. Again, I think we've been doing a good job over the last couple of races and finally we got a strong Sunday with a strong result. I think we are happy with this, although there are things which are more for you if you want to write all these things.

Q: (Byron Young - The Daily Mirror) Fernando, what have you got to say to the people who would call this a dirty win and if you win the championship, a dirty champion?
FA: I have 19 races to... look at the overall races, there are a lot of points that we win sometimes and a lot of points that we lose sometimes. As I said, today was a good day, some other races were bad days for us, disappointing but as I said before, we need to remain focused, keep working, keep developing the car, not to be too excited when we win, not to be too down when we lose. In November, (we need to) try to be in the fight for the championship, not forgetting that Red Bull has so far been very dominant, not scoring many points on Sunday, or the points that they should have scored on Sunday, but remain very strong and McLaren as well, leading both championships, so there is still a long way to go for us.

Q: (Byron Young - The Daily Mirror) The reality is, though, that you couldn't beat him on the track, so you had to get the team to do it for you.
FA: If that's your opinion.

Q: (Byron Young - The Daily Mirror) I'm asking you, is that not your opinion?
FA: No.

Q: (Byron Young - The Daily Mirror) He had to give you this win, didn't he, Fernando?
FA: No.

Q: (Anne Giuntini - L'Equipe) To both Fernando and Felipe, we always talk about the show, the necessity of the show in Formula One. Can you conceive that race lovers and show lovers might be a bit frustrated today?
FA: Well, I think we try to put on a good show always for people, for spectators but as Felipe or Sebastian said, we work for companies, we work for teams. Sometimes, as we saw this year, there are crashes between team-mates and the loss of 42 points for the team. Today Ferrari has 42 in their pocket, so I think it's what we are here for.
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Rest of the conference transcript here:
Formula 1? - The Official F1? Website
 
The media were always going to slam them, and F1, it will make it nigh-on impossible for them to not act and do something serious to them
 
R_Nick said:
This is as stupid as the claim that Glock let Hamilton pass him.

In the years since the team orders rule was introduced we have seen countless examples of it being ignored, everyone it the pit lane acknowledges it, it is plain as day in plenty of cases, and yet this is the first time a team is pulled up on it. That first penalty goes to Ferrari and still this crap is wheeled out, take your tin foil hat off.
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It is not anywhere near as stupid as the quite daft claim that Glock let Hamilton past since it is a comment containing humour, after a fashion.

Formula One in its various incarnations has had a love in with Ferrari since I began following it in the early seventies. A fine of 100.000 pounds is nothing but a slapped wrist for something which brings a sport which has all but lost its integrity even further into disrepute. They've been "pulled up" pretty reluctantly so far, mostly due to the blatantly obvious way it was done over the team radio, we shall see if anything further follows.
My comment about bets on Massa is perfectly valid, by the way.
 
F1-1.jpg


Judging by the higher scores this week, would seem quite a few of us benefited from Ferrari promoting Alonso to the lead!
 
FIA just need to rid the rule altogether. Whether they like it or not, team orders are always going to exist. We've had it this year with Redbull and in 08 with McLaren at Hockenheim, so why the bloody hell enforce a rule that you can't police.

Ferrari were completely tactless in their approach today. The should be punished just for making Smedley make the call alone. ball-less dickheads.
 
At the end of the day this is a team sport. Spectacle this, spectacle that. Yes, I feel sorry for Massa but he's obviously got a contract that states he's the number 2 driver in the team. It's weird how there's always a huge racket made out of it when Ferrari does it but when the other teams do it then its fine. Team orders will always be part of the game. You can't blame the teams as they invest millions upon millions of dollars and are looking for maximum return. If Massa was say only 5 points behind Alonso then I'd think they would've let the status quo be. However, it would've been a rather fruitless exercise if they let Massa win yesterday.

The one problem I have is that fact that they let Rob Smedley give the bad news to Massa, it should have been Domenicali.
 
Stretch said:
At the end of the day this is a team sport. Spectacle this, spectacle that. Yes, I feel sorry for Massa but he's obviously got a contract that states he's the number 2 driver in the team. It's weird how there's always a huge racket made out of it when Ferrari does it but when the other teams do it then its fine. Team orders will always be part of the game. You can't blame the teams as they invest millions upon millions of dollars and are looking for maximum return.
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Well, when team orders are illegal then, actually, yes I can blame the teams. So it seems can the powers that be. Hey ho.

Stretch said:
If Massa was say only 5 points behind Alonso then I'd think they would've let the status quo be. However, it would've been a rather fruitless exercise if they let Massa win yesterday.
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Because Alonso was right in the hunt this season, wasn't he? He was ahead of Massa on points, yes, but it's not like he was competing at the top. This win would have put Massa back into contention himself and maybe launched a championship challenge of his own; now it's patently obvious that no matter what position he's in the team will also feck him over if it helps Alonso.

Stretch said:
The one problem I have is that fact that they let Rob Smedley give the bad news to Massa, it should have been Domenicali.
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That was the most cowardly thing about it. Domenicalli is a massive bellend, and couldn't even muster the courage to tell Massa himself. Twat.
 
Count Duckula said:
Because Alonso was right in the hunt this season, wasn't he? He was ahead of Massa on points, yes, but it's not like he was competing at the top. This win would have put Massa back into contention himself and maybe launched a championship challenge of his own; now it's patently obvious that no matter what position he's in the team will also feck him over if it helps Alonso.
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Not really. Alonso is just 37 points behind now with 225 points of racing yet left. And after Kimi's miracle comeback in 2007, anything is possible.
Instant Karma said:
Massa was losing pace on the hard tyres and was struggling. It was proven by the fact that Vettel closed down a 7 sec gap in 15 laps - that's the kind of rationalization that Lewis fanboi's are providing for Glock letting Lewis through.

Of all the times that it could have happened:
It was on the last race of the season
It was on the last lap of the race
It was the exact no. of points that Lewis needed to win the title
It was the exact person that Lewis needed in that postion - his best mate in the pit lane ahead of him
It was the same team who had a proven history of cheating and taking illegal advantage by making payments to members of other teams

Too much of a coincidence.
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Hmm yeah at that time it all looked very convenient. It was post race when they were talking about Glock being Hamilton's great friend that it looked even more suspicious. But well no one really complained at the time so what's done is done.
But yeah Glock lost an astonishing amount of time on the last 3 corners, his last 3 corners were far far slower than the rest of his final lap.
 
wr8_utd said:
Not really. Alonso is just 37 points behind now with 225 points of racing yet left. And after Kimi's miracle comeback in 2007, anything is possible.

Hmm yeah at that time it all looked very convenient. It was post race when they were talking about Glock being Hamilton's great friend that it looked even more suspicious. But well no one really complained at the time so what's done is done.
But yeah Glock lost an astonishing amount of time on the last 3 corners, his last 3 corners were far far slower than the rest of his final lap.
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Last 3 corners are all downhill at interlagos, adding to that a massive downfall and you have yourself an extremely difficult area to drive a car on slicks. The Water just pools.
 
Count Duckula said:
Well, when team orders are illegal then, actually, yes I can blame the teams. So it seems can the powers that be. Hey ho.
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Hence it being a stupid rule. It has been transgressed several times by different teams. If I pump millions of dollars into a team then I'm more concerned about maximum return than you having your 'spectacle'.


Because Alonso was right in the hunt this season, wasn't he? He was ahead of Massa on points, yes, but it's not like he was competing at the top. This win would have put Massa back into contention himself and maybe launched a championship challenge of his own; now it's patently obvious that no matter what position he's in the team will also feck him over if it helps Alonso.
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:lol: Riiiggght! Go do some math. You might understand that Alonso was 31 points ahead of Massa!!! The win yesterday puts him within 34 points (do-able especially if Ferrari keep on improving) instead of Massa (if he won) who would've still been 65 points off the pace!!! You're clutching at straws mate.

That was the most cowardly thing about it. Domenicalli is a massive bellend, and couldn't even muster the courage to tell Massa himself. Twat.
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Here we agree. It really was bitch move to do that. In no way should Smedley be put in that situation.
 
B Cantona said:
It's not right

It's against the rules

It's against the spirit of the spectacle

If Red Bull and McClaren had done it this season, we'd have had a boring as hell championship. Ferrari have thrown the sport back to the grim days where interest wained in the face of dull predictinle races which ended in carlve ups

Looking forward to Top Gear on iPlayer. There's a Senna film this autumn, and by random I borrowed my mums book on him yesterday. I can still remember watching that weekend as a kid, didn't seem real. We shouldn't forget Senna wasn't the only driver killed at Imola that race weekend. Thank goodness for safety improvements in F1, how different say Webbers incident might have been without them
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horselesspaul said:
It is not anywhere near as stupid as the quite daft claim that Glock let Hamilton past since it is a comment containing humour, after a fashion.

Formula One in its various incarnations has had a love in with Ferrari since I began following it in the early seventies. A fine of 100.000 pounds is nothing but a slapped wrist for something which brings a sport which has all but lost its integrity even further into disrepute. They've been "pulled up" pretty reluctantly so far, mostly due to the blatantly obvious way it was done over the team radio, we shall see if anything further follows.
My comment about bets on Massa is perfectly valid, by the way.
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Are you two honestly trying to say that Ferrari are the first transgressors of team orders since 2002? Seriously?

If you're going to get on your high horses about bringing the sport into disrepute and dragging the sport back to the dark ages then at least have some consistency and get equally as pissed off when other teams do it. Whether the radio message is that the other team member is faster, or an instruction to save fuel, or a preplanned code of switching to another engine map, it happens, we know it does.

If you are so aggrieved that it happens, fine, that's perfectly legitimate, but you can't lay it all at the feet of Ferrari, however retarded they were in the way they went about it.
 
R_Nick said:
Are you two honestly trying to say that Ferrari are the first transgressors of team orders since 2002? Seriously?

If you're going to get on your high horses about bringing the sport into disrepute and dragging the sport back to the dark ages then at least have some consistency and get equally as pissed off when other teams do it. Whether the radio message is that the other team member is faster, or an instruction to save fuel, or a preplanned code of switching to another engine map, it happens, we know it does.

If you are so aggrieved that it happens, fine, that's perfectly legitimate, but you can't lay it all at the feet of Ferrari, however retarded they were in the way they went about it.
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Yeah, I find it amusing how some people have such short memories. And remember, we're only talking about the apparent team orders we know about, what about the other times where the one driver's tyres is fecked, or his stationary long at a pit stop or suddenly loses grip on his tyres? It's always happened in motorsport and no rule from the FIA will change that. Formula one is about 'cheating' the set strict rules so teams will always aspire to do this, whether we like it or not.
 
R_Nick said:
Are you two honestly trying to say that Ferrari are the first transgressors of team orders since 2002? Seriously?

If you're going to get on your high horses about bringing the sport into disrepute and dragging the sport back to the dark ages then at least have some consistency and get equally as pissed off when other teams do it. Whether the radio message is that the other team member is faster, or an instruction to save fuel, or a preplanned code of switching to another engine map, it happens, we know it does.

If you are so aggrieved that it happens, fine, that's perfectly legitimate, but you can't lay it all at the feet of Ferrari, however retarded they were in the way they went about it.
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Exactly. I can't understand the outcry over this.

If Button had done the same for Hamilton I'm positive no one would give a shit. Just because it's Ferrari (who I hate myself) and Alonso involved (who everyone seems to hate) it's been turned into something so big.

Kimi let Massa pass him by 2 years back. It was for the good of the team. Kovailinen did the same for Hamilton.

There had been no outcry at that time.

It happens all the time so people need to stop adopting this holier than thou attitude and behaving like just Ferrari do it.

And how is what's happening at Red Bull any different to "team orders".
Vettel being given the better car (with an improved front wing or something) some races back while Webber got the older version of the car without any improvement? Hows that any better than Massa letting Alonso past?
It was hilarious when the Red Bull team boss came out and said it's the most blatant team orders he has ever seen considering how much they go out of the way to make sure vettel wins over Webber.

Team orders happen. Ferrari are not the only ones.

Kimi did it for Massa and here Massa returned the favor for the team, even if he or no one else likes it.

And this from some other forum :

I'll only add that the German GP isn't the first time we've had clear team orders since 2002. Off the top of my head, Ferrari used them in Brazil 2007 (Kimi WDC) and China 2008 (for Massa, didn't work out). McLaren used them at least in Hungary 2005 (Montoya letting Kimi by), Germany 2008 (Kovalainen letting Hamilton by) and Turkey 2010 ("Jenson, save fuel"). We've seen the Red Bull incidents, as well. Tell me how this is different from taking off the front wing from one car to put it into the other. None of these incidents were awarded a penalty.
 
Monaco 2007: McLaren order Lewis Hamilton not to challenge Fernando Alonso for the race win

Brazil 2007: Ferrari manipulate Felipe Massa's pit stop toput Kimi Raikkonen into the lead so he can win the world title

Germany 2008: Heikki Kovalainen lets McLaren team-mate Hamilton through so he can win the race following an error in team tactics --- I can just imagine the outrage in this forum when this happened :rolleyes:

Singapore 2008: Renault order Nelson Piquet to crash to cause a safety car period that helps Alonso win

China 2008: Raikkonen hands Massa second place behind Hamilton so he is in a better championship position heading into the final race
 
Re Monaco 07, I was going to bring up that scenario if not that particular race, to enquire if the people outraged that we were denied seeing the drivers battle it out properly are equally appalled when drivers are instructed to hold station and not fight for position, which is something we see almost every week.
 
Look, we all know that team orders of any kind really are illegal and as a fan it is incredibly annoying to see, however there is no way to stop it, so instead of that only the most blatant cases a la this one are pulled and investigated, shoul next race Mark webber pull over to allow seb vettel through after Horner or any of the red bull staff for that matter pass on such an obvious messer to the driver they must I repeat MUST get whatever sanctions imposed on Ferrari to them.

As is stated often what makes this so bad is how obvious Ferrari made it and that they were basically insulting the intelligence of regulation bodies, other teams and fans alike. Also don't get me started on Stefano's cowardice in making Smedley pass the message on to Massa, how is Massa supposed to trust Smedley with fighting his corner on the pit wall now?
 
Yes, if they penalise Ferrari now then they have to do the same for every perceived instance of team orders. If they do that then fine, but I don't see how they can.

I also agree entirely with your point about Domenicali, he should have been the one telling Massa, not Rob. Thankfully I believe Massa and Smedley have a strong enough relationship that this won't affect them, and Massa will know full well that it wasn't his fault, nor his wish.
 
Besides all this swop nonsense, the result (Ferrari winning, irrespective of the driver) is a great one for Formula 1, especially if they go on and win or score more points. Makes for an exciting season.
 
wr8_utd said:
Brazil 2007: Ferrari manipulate Felipe Massa's pit stop toput Kimi Raikkonen into the lead so he can win the world title

China 2008: Raikkonen hands Massa second place behind Hamilton so he is in a better championship position heading into the final race
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The fact that these were seen as acceptable shows that team orders can be acceptable when you're doing it for the Championship, as maybe I'm wrong, but could the other still win the title at this stage

We may all think that Massa can't win the Championship, but whilst there are enough points on the table, he should never be asked to move aside
 
EdWeatherall said:
The fact that these were seen as acceptable shows that team orders can be acceptable when you're doing it for the Championship, as maybe I'm wrong, but could the other still win the title at this stage

We may all think that Massa can't win the Championship, but whilst there are enough points on the table, he should never be asked to move aside
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What makes those any different? Alonso is in a way way better position to challenge for the title considering there are two other strong teams.
 
That was something debated earlier but the rule makes no allowances for whether a championship is in play. Just like it makes no allowances for whether team mates are on a different strategy like Brad tried to suggest was ok last night. The rule is that team orders are not allowed. Period. So we either lambast every case or we accept it goes on.

Just read that Whitmarsh has said McLaren would never do it :lol: I wonder if he's made out of wood but thinks he's a real boy. Its quite embarrassing the way people are queuing up to get their go with the dagger on Ferrari when they've all bloody done it.
 
Stretch said:
What makes those any different? Alonso is in a way way better position to challenge for the title considering there are two other strong teams.
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Because Massa can still win the title, I'm sure everyone would agree that he won't and the chances are incredibly unlikely, but whilst he is still in play for the drivers title, he should be allowed to race as such imo
 
EdWeatherall said:
Because Massa can still win the title, I'm sure everyone would agree that he won't and the chances are incredibly unlikely, but whilst he is still in play for the drivers title, he should be allowed to race as such imo
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Why should Ferrari screw over their other driver just because Massa has a very very slim possibility of winning the title. He has struggled all season.

As DC and Brundle were arguing where is the cut off point for when it is OK to use team orders. It is a bit of a daft rule as team orders have always been part of the sport and will continue to be weather it is officially allowed or not.

Look Massa has generally been 0.5 seconds slower than Alonso all season. Alonso has the best chance to win the title. If I was Domencialli I'd have ordered them to do the same but done it in a more subtle way.

Michael Schumacher summed it up perfectly by accepting that it was wrong to do it back in the day with him and Barrichello when he didn't really need it because he was so far ahead anyway but in this case Alonso desperately needs all the points he can get.
 
Why should they screw over Massa he was in the lead Alonso should have taken him but had to whinge like he always does these days to get his own way. You can argue all you want still but Massa still has a chance to win the title a small one but still a chance. Massa had a life threatening injury last year and is still getting back in to his grove Ferrari do this to him.
 
EdWeatherall said:
Because Massa can still win the title, I'm sure everyone would agree that he won't and the chances are incredibly unlikely, but whilst he is still in play for the drivers title, he should be allowed to race as such imo
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He can but he's a further 30 points behind so it obviously makes more sense to let Alonso get the 5 extra points.

It's the same as what Mclaren and Ferrari and the rest have done in the past. This is no different.
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
As DC and Brundle were arguing where is the cut off point for when it is OK to use team orders. It is a bit of a daft rule as team orders have always been part of the sport and will continue to be weather it is officially allowed or not.
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Seems pretty simple to me, when Massa can no longer win the title
 
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