The F1 Thread 2010 Season

R_Nick said:
Brad what did you think when Kovi moved over for Hamilton?
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Can't remember the circumstances Nick

If you're on different strategies, I think it's fine to get out of the way and let that situation play out. What I don't think is acceptable is moving over to let someone else win. The moral ambiguity comes if its the last lap of the last race of the season and doing so wins the championship. But that's nowhere near being the case here anyway

At the end of the day, spectators want to watch a race, not a calve up. Some of the great duels have come between rival team mates in the best car of the time. FIA have acted before in the face of Schumacher / Coulthard situations, they should have the courage of their convictiion and retain the key element of contested racing
 
Well its the normal bullshit from Ferrari really. Mclaren and Red Bull have proved this season that they will allow their drivers to drive and dual it out with one another. Oh! Stewards have called for the Ferrari Bosses!

This isn't over ;)
 
RedSky At Night said:
Well its the normal bullshit from Ferrari really. Mclaren and Red Bull have proved this season that they will allow their drivers to drive and dual it out with one another. Oh! Stewards have called for the Ferrari Bosses!

This isn't over ;)
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Didn't Button ignore team order for McLaren in Turkey?

If Massa sticks to his line "It was my decision to move over", not much the FIA can do.
 
EdWeatherall said:
It's not over, but as Mike Gascoigne was saying and I mentioned on the previous page, if Massa is going to say he decided to do it, there seems very little that can be done about it
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I'm not sure that will hold up however. It wasn't Massas decision. The radio conversation was very clear, the orders came from the bosses not from the driver.

You can't change your mind 20minutes after the race has ended. The FIA aren't that daft.
 
B Cantona said:
Can't remember the circumstances Nick

If you're on different strategies, I think it's fine to get out of the way and let that situation play out. What I don't think is acceptable is moving over to let someone else win. The moral ambiguity comes if its the last lap of the last race of the season and doing so wins the championship. But that's nowhere near being the case here anyway

At the end of the day, spectators want to watch a race, not a calve up. Some of the great duels have come between rival team mates in the best car of the time. FIA have acted before in the face of Schumacher / Coulthard situations, they should have the courage of their convictiion and retain the key element of contested racing
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I think that's perfectly fair, but the thing is that everyone does it and it's for the benefit of the team. If it had been handled 'better' and Rob had given Massa a much more subtle instruction the farore probably wouldn't have followed.

My point of view is that team orders are a part of the sport and always have been, they just have to he handled better and employed only when circumstances really demand them, where here they didn't.

Kovi let Hamilton past him a few times because Lewis was fighting for the WDC, Kimi did it for Massa, Alonso had the benefit at Renault, I remember Heidfeld doing it for Kubica at BMW, it's nothing unique to Ferrari.
 
RedSky At Night said:
I'm not sure that will hold up however. It wasn't Massas decision. The radio conversation was very clear, the orders came from the bosses not from the driver.
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We all know that's what really happened, but what we actually heard and maybe there's more which shows them actually telling him to let him past

But what we heard was Massa being told that Fernando was slower and did he understand the message

I know, you know, Massa knew, the FIA knows, everyone knows what that actually meant, but in reality as far as we know, they didn't actually tell him to let him past
 
RedSky At Night said:
I'm not sure that will hold up however. It wasn't Massas decision. The radio conversation was very clear, the orders came from the bosses not from the driver.

You can't change your mind 20minutes after the race has ended. The FIA aren't that daft.
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They didn't give any order though, Smedley told Massa that Alonso was faster, the instruction was implicit, if Massa says he did it off his own back then theres nothing they can do.
 
Button battered everyone else when he had the best car last season - Red Bull have had a similar situation most of this, and look how they've capitalised...

He's a very worthy World Champion, he's up there again competing this year, he frankly doesn't even need defending. Anyone demeening his achievement looks like a know nothing cnut
 
B Cantona said:
Button battered everyone else when he had the best car last season - Red Bull have had a similar situation most of this, and look how they've capitalised...

He's a very worthy World Champion, he's up there again competing this year, he frankly doesn't even need defending. Anyone demeening his achievement looks like a know nothing cnut
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Amen.
 
B Cantona said:
Button battered everyone else when he had the best car last season - Red Bull have had a similar situation most of this, and look how they've capitalised...

He's a very worthy World Champion, he's up there again competing this year, he frankly doesn't even need defending. Anyone demeening his achievement looks like a know nothing cnut
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well then I am a know nothing cnut and anyone calling someone a cnut over a thread on the internet, is a live at home virgin.
 
B Cantona said:
Button battered everyone else when he had the best car last season - Red Bull have had a similar situation most of this, and look how they've capitalised...

He's a very worthy World Champion, he's up there again competing this year, he frankly doesn't even need defending. Anyone demeening his achievement looks like a know nothing cnut
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He was very good back in the BAR which just shows that he can compete with a slower car, and last year as you say he was exceptional especially at the start of the season.
 
R_Nick said:
They didn't give any order though, Smedley told Massa that Alonso was faster, the instruction was implicit, if Massa says he did it off his own back then theres nothing they can do.
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Don't think that will hold up. It may have been different if the engineer didn't them come back on the radio and appolgise to Massa. We shall see.
 
R_Nick said:
Out of interest, if you guys were in charge what punishment would you hand out here?
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I don't know, I think expelling them is a bit heavy handed, as the points gain for Alonso isn't huge...but then I don't think swapping them back would be fair, so maybe a 30second penalty, not sure what that does to them
 
R_Nick said:
30s for both of them?
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I don't know, it's not easy, would be difficult to punish one or the other as they were both involved

Maybe they'd give them the driver points, but not the constructor points instead of a time-drop or something like that

But as I say, I can't see there being a punishment
 
If proven guilty, they'll get the book thrown at them. Expect 0 point this weekend if thats the case and a position drop next race with heavy fines.
 
What is clear is that they need to nail down the circumstances when team orders are allowed, i.e things like;

If one driver is out of position and on different strategies and would be holding up the other
If one driver can't mathematically win the Championship going into that weekend
 
What was it Alonso was saying the other day about manipulating the race result after the safety car at Valencia
 
I don't know why the team orders were used actually. It was so stupid of them. Alonso was all over Massa and he would have overtaken him anyway.

Guess Ferrari were just conservative and scared of what Alonso might try to do to overtake Massa. But incredibly stupid thing to do when Alonso probably would have won anyway.

But this is good for the season. If Ferrari can get back in the championship it will make it far more interesting with a 3 horse race.
 
BTV_is_neutral said:
flukey champion because imo he is the worst champion F1 has had in the last 15-20 years...

Senna
Prost
Mansell
Schumacher
Hill
Villeneuve(yes his vanity got to him...but he was awesome)
Hakkinen
Raikonnen
Alonso
Hamilton


and then you have Button. Whatever it's just me...not asking others to agree with me. As for the sanctimonious humour bit, every driver knows what was going on..Button himself would have wanted the same thing done, if he was in that situation, so to act all smart about it silly.
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Yeah I agree. He actually is the poorest champion in ages.
Though he's as good as Hamilton at the moment I think. He's not that bad but just not a champion.
 
R_Nick said:
I gave my position earlier, in that when one driver is out of the running and the other a contender I understand the need for it, and it doesn't bother me, it's a team sport. But in this instance here that wasn't the situation, its far too early for needing to make those calls. Also worth pointing out that Kimi did it for Massa too, so he's has the benefit of it himself in the past.
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Exactly. I don't there would have been such a reaction that time? If I'm not wrong even Kovi had "let hamilton pass" at one point last year.
 
BTV_is_neutral said:
Ferrari have been fined $100,000 and referred to the WMSC. Result is unchanged for now.
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I'm surprised by this but encouraged that something will be done, as there is going to be a huge media backlash against this which will make it impossible to do nothing
 
wr8_utd said:
Yeah I agree. He actually is the poorest champion in ages.
Though he's as good as Hamilton at the moment I think. He's not that bad but just not a champion.
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Well I disagree I think hes a great champion. Though he is close to Lewis hes not as good. Lewis has beaten him 8 times out of 11, the 3 times he got beat was by the rain and car problems.
 
B Cantona said:
That's precisely what he is. The current World Champion

Boy it'll stick in your throat if he wins it again this year! Presumably would be another fluke...
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In the best car by far last year after Brawn took advantage with their design and everyone (especially Ferrari and McLaren were left unaware).

Hamilton was crap last year so is he shit? Last year while not really a fluke, he did have a huge advantage in a car that was FAR superior to anything else out there for the first few months. Did he win more than 1 race after the first 6-8?

And well Hamilton is outperforming him with ease as someone just said at McLaren. So I'm fairly positive he won't win it :D

Though I rather he win than Hamilton. He comes across as a nice guy.
 
EdWeatherall said:
I'm surprised by this but encouraged that something will be done, as there is going to be a huge media backlash against this which will make it impossible to do nothing
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It is encouraging

Ther are plenty ways for teams to prioritise their teams. Manipulating the result of the race should absolutely not be one of them. It just ruins the spectacle for everyone watching. We should have had a great battle at the front today and we were robbed of it

For all Red Bull have been criticised for prioritising Vettel, on the track they've let their drivers race. Same goes for McClaren. It's made for fantastic racing at the front of the grid. Ferrari finally get back on the pace and we're right back to the usual shite again
 
After speaking to Fernando Alonso and Felipe Massa the FIA race stewards in Hockenheim have found Ferrari guilty of breaching Article 151C, which refers to bringing the sport into disrepute, in addition to breaking Article 39.1, the team orders rule. It says, ‘Team orders which interfere with a race are prohibited.’
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they could be in trouble later....they have specified the rule they broke.
 
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