The F1 Thread 2009 Season

Not sure about the Senna point Jopub, we could see the big pool of blood forming immediately, we knew it was serious'

But in the main I agree with you. There were cars travelling at speed just behind Piqeut. How does he know exactly how his crash will play out? He could easily bounce back off the wall, or his wheels come off and move across the track, and his fellow drivers are in real danger, there's nowhere to go given the point of the race track they chose to crash

Very very dangerous. I don't think anyone who's seen these cars live would consider it anything but
 
I don't think the danger aspect of the incident should be played down at all, a crash is highly unpredictable and nobody would know what bits of car would go where, not to mention the fact that the following cars were driving into debris which could easily have flicked up in a manner similar to Massa's accident or caused another car(s) to crash.
 
Jopub said:
Naa thats a lot of bollocks

You can dress it up anyway you want and for starters you do not know a wheel is not gonna come off a car and land right on some poor fkers head - its happened before, more than once, so it does happen and that's your argument up in flames mate.

As for freak accidents - they're all freak until they stick in your helmet into your brain and kill you or maim you - Senna Messa or countless other accidents where drivers have died. I know safety is better than ever but its not foolproof and the last thing we need is idiotic drivers deliberately causing and making them

I do follow F1 and you're talking like everything is under control - the fk it is - especially with cars flying around tracks at untold speeds

Who cares what Martin Brundle said - after Senna crashed nobody thought hardly anything of it for ten minutes

F1 is not a stable sport and you're making a mistake for thinking it is - its better than it was but it's still as dangerous as fk and nomatter what you say any accident at speed can become a fatal one and if drivers are'nt doing it deliberately than at least thats one less chance of a death or two
Seems as clear as day to me
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All if's & buts. Like i said, i see your point. But its a bit far fetched going down the negligence route.
 
R_Nick said:
All plausible though, and you can't downplay it because crashing deliberately opens up the possibility of anything happening. Just because it didn't doesn't mean it couldn't have.
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I'm not downplaying it at all, im saying its pointless to review a case of if's & but's. But opening up that as a precedent, would then mean looking at the worst case scenario for every single racing incident.
 
No it wouldn't, it would only open it up in cases where the incident was caused deliberately.
 
Telegraph.co.uk said:
Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds face extraditon threat over race-fixing scandal

Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds could potentially be extradited to Singapore to face criminal charges in the wake of their departure from Renault on Wednesday in connection with race-fixing claims.

There are also legal challenges open to Ferrari and their driver Felipe Massa, who missed out on last year's world drivers' crown by a single point; and to Renault itself, which may want to sue its former employees for allegedly bringing the company's name into disrepute.

Renault F1 managing director Briatore and executive director of engineering Symonds departed under a cloud on Wednesday as it was announced that the team would not contest charges of fixing the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix.

The pair were accused by former driver Nelson Piquet Jr of asking him to crash in last September's race in order to help team-mate Fernando Alonso win the race, and were due to go before the FIA's World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Monday.

Briatore had denied all claims made against him and even announced last week that he had launched criminal proceedings against Piquet Jnr and his father, triple world champion Nelson Piquet Snr, for "attempted blackmail and false allegations".

Symonds had been rather more reticent and had been offered immunity in return for full disclosure.

However, Renault now says it will not contest the charges. The French manufacturer has been conducting its own internal investigation ever since the allegations came to light and has yet to say anything official in public.

Monday's WMSC hearing will still take place but will now probably be attended by a Renault team lawyer, who will plead for clemency, claiming the alleged actions of two men should not affect the employment of nearly 700 other staff.

The FIA could still impose sanctions if it finds Renault guilty, including excluding the team from the championship, although that must be considered unlikely given the two people Piquet claimed were responsible have now left.

The FIA will also bear in mind that it does not want another manufacturer to leave the sport and is likely to let Renault escape lightly in 'the best interests of the sport'.

So much for the sporting repercussions. Renault potentially faces a glut of other legal repercussions as a result of Briatore's and Symonds's alleged actions.

Telegraph Sport understands Singapore could request extradition from a Commonwealth country for someone charged for offences which are deemed "extradition crimes".

Part One of the First Schedule of the Singapore Extradition Act lists "acts done with the intention of endangering vehicles, vessels or aircraft" as an extraditable crime. "Malicious or wilful damage to property" is also on the list.

Whether the Singapore government would want to jeopardise its chances of hosting future grands prix by dragging Formula One's name through the mud is a moot point.

Ferrari's and Massa's case against Renault could prove more substantial. The Brazilian, who had been leading in Singapore until Piquet's crash, finished 13th in the race and ended up losing the championship to Lewis Hamilton by a single point. Both he and the team's loss of earnings would be significant.
Stephen Hornsby, a specialist sports lawyer for Davenport Lyons, believes they could potentially have a stronger case than Sheffield United, who won £30 millon in damages from West Ham over the Carlos Tévez affair earlier this year after being relegated from the Premier League in 2007.

"There is a clear causal link between the alleged cheating and the financial loss to Massa and his team," Hornsby said. "As for Renault suing Briatore that is possible too. But Renault are unlikely to want to keep the matter going for little reward."
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Wouldn't want to be in their shoes :eek:
 
My dad made an interesting point earlier today regarding all this: was Alonso in on it, or was he an unwitting beneficiary? Somehow I doubt he was innocent, and I'm sure he knew exactly what was going on when Pique booted it into a wall so that he could win.

Suddenly that Ferrari drive looks far less secure, particularly given that his potential teammate was one of the main victims of this incident.
 
I think the Santander deal means Alonso is nailed on for Ferrari

Was he in on it or not? Who knows. Perfectly plausible either way. You'd think that while he might have known little about it prior - although surely even he questioned why he was coming in so soon, and had suspicions following the Piquet crash? - surely someone might have said something afterwards to him? Briatore is not only his manager but his agent too
 
Don't forget Santander are also staying sponsors of McLaren Brad, they are just maximising their image by sponsoring Ferrari as well, it doesn't mean as much for a potential Alonso deal as many people like to make out.

I personally don't think Alonso will move to Ferrari until 2011, if even then.

Regards to whether he knew about the plan, I don't think he was involved before hand - there is a video of him after the race in that room where they are weighed before going to the podium where he says to Flav something about the safety car having worked out really well, like it was hugely lucky.

The light fuel load was certainly odd, but we've seen people try bizarre strategies before when lumbered down the grid, taking gables on things happening - certainly Alonso could have just been told 'we're taking a risk, we've nothing to lose'. Nobody other than he and the people who were involved will likely ever know though.
 
True Nick, but part of the reason they went to McClaren in the first place was the incoming Alonso, I'm sure its the same deal here. Obviously their sponsorship with McClaren has been highly successful for them, so it makes sense to stay on with them too

The crazy thing to remember in all this cheating scandal - Alonso actually won the very next race, the Japanese Grand Prix, entirely fair and square (daft penalties to other drives aside)
 
What a lot of bollocks, are people taking Briatore and Symonds axing as a sign of guilt.

Put it simply, they left to get rid of this BS. By leaving they protect some integrity of Renault f1, and stop any more probes in to the team. This is well and truly, only the tip of the ice burg, and Flav and Pat took a bullet.

In any court in an adversarial system, Piquet would not have a leg to stand on. That radio transcript proves nothing in his favor.

Calling the team cheats is harsh and slightly unfair. What the Piquet's have done however, is well and truly destroyed their reputation, and Nelsons career. A lot of doors will be closed on their faces with full force and I don't blame them.

Good riddance to a whinger and his useless son!
 
Yea they definitely had good pace, I may be wrong here but didn't he outscore everyone from Singapore onwards?

With the Santander deal - I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see Alonso in a red car come 2011, but I'd be a little taken aback if it were to happen next season, and I'd also be quite pissed off it happens at Raikkonen's expense. We'll see what happens though!
 
marchi-91 said:
What a lot of bollocks, are people taking Briatore and Symonds axing as a sign of guilt.

Put it simply, they left to get rid of this BS. By leaving they protect some integrity of Renault f1, and stop any more probes in to the team. This is well and truly, only the tip of the ice burg, and Flav and Pat took a bullet.

In any court in an adversarial system, Piquet would not have a leg to stand on. That radio transcript proves nothing in his favor.

Calling the team cheats is harsh and slightly unfair. What the Piquet's have done however, is well and truly destroyed their reputation, and Nelsons career. A lot of doors will be closed on their faces with full force and I don't blame them.

Good riddance to a whinger and his useless son!
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:lol::lol::lol: You're good value Marchi

Yeh, calling them cheats is really harsh in the circumstances eh!
 
marchi-91 said:
What a lot of bollocks, are people taking Briatore and Symonds axing as a sign of guilt.

Put it simply, they left to get rid of this BS. By leaving they protect some integrity of Renault f1, and stop any more probes in to the team. This is well and truly, only the tip of the ice burg, and Flav and Pat took a bullet.

In any court in an adversarial system, Piquet would not have a leg to stand on. That radio transcript proves nothing in his favor.

Calling the team cheats is harsh and slightly unfair. What the Piquet's have done however, is well and truly destroyed their reputation, and Nelsons career. A lot of doors will be closed on their faces with full force and I don't blame them.

Good riddance to a whinger and his useless son!
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Renault are not disputing the accusations, I'm not sure what more you can ask for to be convinced!

I do kind of agree with you about Piquet though, he's only come out with all this because he was pissed at being sacked, not though any remorse for his actions or anything. He'll never race again I don't think.
 
R_Nick said:
Renault are not disputing the accusations, I'm not sure what more you can ask for to be convinced!

I do kind of agree with you about Piquet though, he's only come out with all this because he was pissed at being sacked, not though any remorse for his actions or anything. He'll never race again I don't think.
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I've already made this point, whats the point of denying the accusations if you have more to hide. Take a bullet instead of the torpedo.
 
R_Nick said:
And yet calling them cheats is harsh?

I'll have a pint of whatever you're drinking!
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I was incorrect in saying that, but there is more to this.

And the real question now is why Piquet not labeled a cheat and facing extradition to Singapore. He is directly involved and even more of a cheat then Flavio and Symonds. Like Hamilton in Australia with lie gate, he never had to crash but chose to do so, and even then, the only transcript given in no way demonstrates acts of team orders or that an order was given to crash the car, and unlike Flavio and Pat, has blatantly and freely admitted he crashed the car on purpose. Informants still get jail time whether they dob in others or not. He should not be immune to punishment.


If Piquet gets away with this scott free, then something is oh so very wrong with how the F.I.A. deals with these procedures.
 
He's already been given immunity by the FIA in exchange for his testimony, so he won't be getting punishment from them, and I absolutely agree that that is wrong.

Its a bit different from the Hamilton incident in that Hamilton's actions were for his own benefit whereas Piquets were for the team/Alonso's benefit. No doubt he is directly involved though and should definitely be facing the same speculation regarding Singapore law breaking.
 
R_Nick said:
He's already been given immunity by the FIA in exchange for his testimony, so he won't be getting punishment from them, and I absolutely agree that that is wrong.

Its a bit different from the Hamilton incident in that Hamilton's actions were for his own benefit whereas Piquets were for the team/Alonso's benefit. No doubt he is directly involved though and should definitely be facing the same speculation regarding Singapore law breaking.
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To be fair, getting a seat for a second year when you clearly don't deserve one "apparently" because of this, is means of benefit.
 
PiquetRev.jpg
 
A comparison would be useful, but its pretty clear he's his the loud pedal when he shouldn't have.
 
I hadn't really considered it, but how fecked must Massa be feeling? There's no knowing what would have happened, but he was leading the grand prix at the time. He came in to pit after the safety car was out and the pit lane reopened, and he had the cock up with the fuel hose. Technically Piquet's incident should have had no greater effect that perhaps see Alonso leapfrog him one place, so he can't really blame Renault for missing out, it was still a huge error. But things maybe would have been very different without the foul play

That said Hamilton was still full value for his Championship, and following the bollocks decision to dock Hamilton his points at Spa, justice eventually done
 
R_Nick said:
A comparison would be useful, but its pretty clear he's his the loud pedal when he shouldn't have.
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Can't find that, but here's a description from the Guardian:

Piquet's telemetry at the exit to turn 17 reveals that he applied throttle earlier than expected which caused his rear wheels to spin. He then eased off the accelerator before reapplying pressure to cause the car to lurch into a spin and hit the wall.

Piquet's earlier laps in the grand prix did not feature such early acceleration on the same turn.
 
Brad said:
I hadn't really considered it, but how fecked must Massa be feeling? There's no knowing what would have happened, but he was leading the grand prix at the time. He came in to pit after the safety car was out and the pit lane reopened, and he had the cock up with the fuel hose. Technically Piquet's incident should have had no greater effect that perhaps see Alonso leapfrog him one place, so he can't really blame Renault for missing out, it was still a huge error. But things maybe would have been very different without the foul play

That said Hamilton was still full value for his Championship, and following the bollocks decision to dock Hamilton his points at Spa, justice eventually done
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If the Spa penalty hadn't happened Hamilton would have been a net 6 points better off than Massa, had Piquet not thrown himself into the wall and Massa had held his position in Singapore he'd have been a net 10 points better off, so hardly justice.

That said, its not so straight forward, had Massa won in Singapore then everything in the following races could have gone differently - the butterfly effect so to speak.

The championship can't/won't be messed with, but Renault and Alonso should be stripped of their points.

Brad said:
Can't find that, but here's a description from the Guardian:

Piquet's telemetry at the exit to turn 17 reveals that he applied throttle earlier than expected which caused his rear wheels to spin. He then eased off the accelerator before reapplying pressure to cause the car to lurch into a spin and hit the wall.

Piquet's earlier laps in the grand prix did not feature such early acceleration on the same turn.
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Yea, you can see where he lets off and then floors it again.
 
R_Nick said:
If the Spa penalty hadn't happened Hamilton would have been a net 6 points better off than Massa, had Piquet not thrown himself into the wall and Massa had held his position in Singapore he'd have been a net 10 points better off, so hardly justice.
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Well that's not quite right. Hamilton had earnt his points and had them taken off him, losing 6 points. We don't know how the race would have played out for Massa, and the incident itself didn't take him out, it was still a pit lane error on his and his teams part

That's why personally, I think it's something that Massa can be a bit pissed about, but at the end of the day, it hasn't really affected things. It was his botch up that cost him that race, the tactic employed by Renault should have cost him 1 place maximum
 
Yea like I said above though, one thing happening/not happening changes everything that goes after it.

Piquet doesn't crash and who knows what happens, somebody else could have stuffed it on the next lap. Its all hypothetical and like you say Ferrari fecked up Massa's stop. Thats why I said the championship can't/won't be messed with.

Hamilton is (it pains me to say) a worthy WDC, and it nobody should even consider altering results other than to take Renaults points away.
 
Renault have admitted the cheating haven't they by not defending the accusations and sacking the top bods? Pique's career must be over as well I assume.
 
I dunno ..... fking depressing really


Now F1 has become like the athletics has'nt it :(

You just cant rely on a true result anymore and that makes it untenable as a sporting spectacle

Through out the years I've grown up watching the evolved F1 'product' and so been able to admire and respect the endeavours of drivers who put their lives on the line and now through insane governing body management, periods of outrageous bias for one team or another, stolen documents,plans, rules constantly evolving as one team cheats if they can get away with it, paranoia from teams, the need for an extra dollar and now deliberate life endangering crashes :eek:

F1 has now become what we all fear in sport so embedded and systematic is the cheating aspect that you'll now not only not trust who wins it this year but you 'll be forever looking at who won it 20 years ago and wondering what the hell went on back then too

I think I'm ready to hang up my viewing glasses on F1 ... there really is little point in it any longer

Fk me - whatever happened to the Stirling Moss 'we just got into the fking car and drove our bollocks off... and the best man won'
 
I'm not ready to stop waching it - yet anyway.

The standardisation etc is shit though, I was watching footage from 05 the other day and the V10's sounded so much better than these poxy limited V8's. V12's were even better, bring them back!!
 
I'm not gonna stop watching as Eddie Ervine said on the radio the other day cheating has been going on for so many years just more unoticed. I bet even when Stirling Moss was around all the teams and drivers weren't Angels.
 
Rooney1987 said:
I'm not gonna stop watching as Eddie Ervine said on the radio the other day cheating has been going on for so many years just more unoticed. I bet even when Stirling Moss was around all the teams and drivers weren't Angels.
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He was probably talking about Schumacher. And trust me, it was noticed, just rarely punished properly :mad:
 
You honestly think Schuey was the only person bending/breaking rules and suck during his time Brad?
 
Well if you're saying they all drove their opponents off the track, that isn't true

If it's cheating behind the scenes... who knows. Anyone used to play Grand Prix Manager? That used to give you the option of basically doing what McClaren got done for, stealing parts and designs off your rivals! Ahead of its time (or perhaps of its time) that game
 
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