That's not fair either.
Let's stick to facts.
If we took this point we'd have to put everyone in jail, since everybody would be a burglar given the right circumstances.
The F1 Thread 2008 Season
- Thread starter RedNome
- Start date
That's not fair either.
Let's stick to facts.
If we took this point we'd have to put everyone in jail, since everybody would be a burglar given the right circumstances.
Here is the neutral view from F1 -
Polesitter Hamilton was penalised for forcing Kimi Raikkonen wide into Turn One at the start. The Ferrari got a better getaway and was in front when Hamilton jinked right, almost hitting team mate Heikki Kovalainen in the process, and then locked up under braking. He understeered wide, flat-spotting his front tyres and leaving Raikkonen nowhere to go, dropping the Finn to seventh place.
Even Hamilton admitted that he was at fault in forcing Kimi and Kovalienen wide. Their caution prevented a racing incident his stupidity almost caused.
But continue with your delusions that everyone is out to get Lewis and prevent him from winning
What about Lewis driving into Kimi who was stopped in front of a red light in the pitlane ? Couldn't Lewis see either the red light or 2 cars stopped at the end of the pit lane while driving at one fifth of racing speed ?
25 seconds penalty for Bourdais.
That's a fact, so worth reporting.
I also wrote I share your view on today's gp.
I only said that it's lame to use "what one would do if" as an evidence of anything.
Really?
Some of the English fans are going to have a field day after this decision even though it was another fair one.
Hope the championship winner isn't decided based on this 1 point.
I thought Massa was going to be punished
I thought Massa was going to be punished
I love that .gif Anyway as soon as the FIA said they were going to investigate after the race I knew Bourdais would get that 25 second penalty if Massa finished in the points.
Not because they are biased against Mclaren but because they want to repeat the enormous succes that the GP of Brazil was last year. I'm convinced now that Ecclestone makes it all up to get more tv-viewers, more sponsors and ofcourse more money.
I thought Massa was going to be punished
Massa was ahead and Bourdais hit the rear of the Ferrari causing Massa to spin around. It was similar to Massa hitting the rear of the Mclaren and causing Lewis to spin earlier in the race.
Massa was ahead and Bourdais hit the rear of the Ferrari causing Massa to spin around. It was similar to Massa hitting the rear of the Mclaren and causing Lewis to spin earlier in the race.
Look at the circumstances first. Bourdais just came out of the pits, cold tyres, he hugs the inside line and takes to the curb to avoid Massa but Massa just keps coming across and gives him no room. This is for position! What's Bourdais gonna do, brake to a halt and say after you Felipe, its yours mate. If anything its a racing incident and its certainly not a Bourdais penalty.
Anyway, even a generally non controversial Kubica and long time buddy of Lewis had criticized Hamilton's tactics before this race -
"There are two different ways you can drive," Kubica said. "You can be aggressive but stay fair. Or you can be too aggressive and too self-confident.
"What Lewis did in Monza, for example, that was too much. He cut in the way of Timo Glock and forced him to go on the grass. And Fernando Alonso had to lift the pedal on the straight because Lewis had crossed his line. That was too much by far.
"It was too dangerous. We did mention this in the drivers' briefing and I think everybody has a similar opinion. But in the end we can talk as much as we want. But if somebody is convinced that he has the right to do so, we have no chance to stop him. That's why we have penalties. In Monza they should have given a penalty to Lewis."
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There is reason why every driver on the grid and even some British ones like DC believe that Lewis is too rash to race fairly.
Maybe Ferrari are also paying the neutral drivers on the grid just like the stewards in every race
"There are two different ways you can drive," Kubica said. "You can be aggressive but stay fair. Or you can be too aggressive and too self-confident.
"What Lewis did in Monza, for example, that was too much. He cut in the way of Timo Glock and forced him to go on the grass. And Fernando Alonso had to lift the pedal on the straight because Lewis had crossed his line. That was too much by far.
"It was too dangerous. We did mention this in the drivers' briefing and I think everybody has a similar opinion. But in the end we can talk as much as we want. But if somebody is convinced that he has the right to do so, we have no chance to stop him. That's why we have penalties. In Monza they should have given a penalty to Lewis."
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There is reason why every driver on the grid and even some British ones like DC believe that Lewis is too rash to race fairly.
Maybe Ferrari are also paying the neutral drivers on the grid just like the stewards in every race
So? He is 23, I suspect he will mellow down abit as he gets older. Massa couldnt drive a nail into a piece of wood when he first got to F1. He is aggressive, but id confidently say that atleast 50% of the current grid are just used to driving round and overtaking in pitstops. And DC is one to moan, he is the most dangerous driver out there at the moment.
Its similar to Lewis-Massa incident. The driver in front turns into a corner leaving little room for the driver behind him. The second driver is half on the kerbs and hits the rear of the car in front causing it to spin.
The build up to the incident with cold tyres, out of pits etc isn't that relevant. In fact the drivers coming out of the pits have long been instructed to be cautious by the stewards. The drivers on the track do not have much time to respond at racing speed when a slower car from the pit lane cuts in front of them.
Anyway...its a travesty that Vettel will be driving around in a Red Bull next season while Heidfeld keeps fecking up in a car as good as the BMW
Among all fecked up decisions made by the teams, FIA and drivers this season, extending Heidfeld's contract ahead of better drivers is perhaps the worst decision.
Among all fecked up decisions made by the teams, FIA and drivers this season, extending Heidfeld's contract ahead of better drivers is perhaps the worst decision.
It's not similar at all, Massa went 4 wheels off track and took to the grass to ensure he hit Hamilton, Bourdais was trying to avoid being hit by an over eager Massa. The fact he is coming out of the pitlane IS relevant because he has no choice but to stay inside with Massa there, he arrives at the corner first so its his corner. Bourdais simply cannot turn his car without it understeering unless he defies the laws of physics, and he was at the corner first so he did not have to back off. Bourdais did everything he could to avoid Massa and now he has the book thrown at him and I am gutted for the fella.
Anyone got a link to a torrent or something for this, as I completely missed it?
I couldn't force myself up, but I watched the highlights online..
Are they taking the piss AGAIN? You would have thought the FIA would have tried to be a little bit less obvious of their bias to Ferrari after the last few races, but to do it again? Whats going on??
Must be killing Hamilton inside to think how much momentum he is losing on the drivers championship, and how the FIA are getting away with it time after time.
Are they taking the piss AGAIN? You would have thought the FIA would have tried to be a little bit less obvious of their bias to Ferrari after the last few races, but to do it again? Whats going on??
Must be killing Hamilton inside to think how much momentum he is losing on the drivers championship, and how the FIA are getting away with it time after time.
I would love to see Kubica win it. Lewis seems determined to throw it away, maybe the pressure is getting to him, or he is believing his own hype.
Bernie needs a new ring master for his circus.
Bernie needs a new ring master for his circus.
Another fair one? If its so fair, why weren't you calling for it in advance?
You know, I'm glad this thread has shown you and Crazy up for what you are today. Bitter racing fans who have their eyes completely closed due to some kind of hatred for Hamilton, and his supporters
Giving Hamilton a penalty on the first corner was bad enough, for something which is just part and parcel of racing, it happens most races that someone overcooks the first corner, and may even comprimise someone elses race. That's just life. Astonishing to be penalised for it. But I can't believe a car leaving the pitlane with frankly nowhere to go, has been penalised for the inicident with Massa, who had all of the track to use. Poor Bourdais loses his well earned points, all because F1 wants to engineer a tight championship. It absolutely stinks
I'm afraid it stops being conspiracy theories when it keeps happening race after race. The single worst thing anyone did was the manouvere by Massa to drive into the side of Hamilton. I've heard he said he couldn't possibly avoid Hamilton. That's horse shit, when he overbakes it going into the chicane, he can take to the grass and rejoin when the car has passed. He didn't. And he gets the same penalty as Hamilton? Nonsense
Does anyone honestly disagree with this?
Bourdais blames Massa for collision
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71360
Sebastien Bourdais believes Felipe Massa was completely to blame for their collision at Fuji - even though the stewards decided to penalise Bourdais for the collision.
The Toro Rosso driver was given a 25-second penalty after the race and fell from sixth to 10th, while Massa was consequently elevated from eighth to seventh.
The two cars had come together as Bourdais rejoined after his final pitstop. He pulled out alongside Massa, who tried to drive around the outside of the Toro Rosso at the first corner, only to spin after contact between them.
Bourdais was adamant that Massa was at fault for the incident.
"For me it's very clear. Yes, I exit the pits, yes I'm supposed to be careful and I was," he said. "I stayed inside and I didn't push him out, I didn't overshoot the corner.
"I did everything I could not to run into him and he just squeezed and turned and behaved like I didn't exist, like I wasn't there. What am I supposed to do?
"I've been in this position many, many times and I never had any incidents. It's just a little bit of respect, you give each other room and then everything goes right, but if you don't for sure it's going to be an incident."
The Frenchman added that he would have behaved differently to Massa had he been the one challenging for the title.
"I've been in this position many times, especially the position he is in fighting for championships and you just don't take unnecessary risks like this," said Bourdais.
"You've got everything to lose and nothing to gain. He was going to pit in three laps, I was ahead of him and he was going to finish behind us anyway. Why would you even think about doing something like that? I don't understand."
Despite feeling he was blameless in the incident, Bourdais wasn't surprised to receive a penalty.
"No, because every time I get called to the (stewards) meeting rooms, one way or the other it goes against me," he said.
"I don't know why, I don't know what I've done. I don't think I have done anything wrong on this one and unfortunately it ruins the weekend, takes away three points for the team and gives Felipe another point - I am really happy for him, obviously!
"I don't know what I was supposed to do basically. I could have unrolled the red carpet and given him the corner. That is the only thing I could have done."
Bourdais blames Massa for collision
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71360
Sebastien Bourdais believes Felipe Massa was completely to blame for their collision at Fuji - even though the stewards decided to penalise Bourdais for the collision.
The Toro Rosso driver was given a 25-second penalty after the race and fell from sixth to 10th, while Massa was consequently elevated from eighth to seventh.
The two cars had come together as Bourdais rejoined after his final pitstop. He pulled out alongside Massa, who tried to drive around the outside of the Toro Rosso at the first corner, only to spin after contact between them.
Bourdais was adamant that Massa was at fault for the incident.
"For me it's very clear. Yes, I exit the pits, yes I'm supposed to be careful and I was," he said. "I stayed inside and I didn't push him out, I didn't overshoot the corner.
"I did everything I could not to run into him and he just squeezed and turned and behaved like I didn't exist, like I wasn't there. What am I supposed to do?
"I've been in this position many, many times and I never had any incidents. It's just a little bit of respect, you give each other room and then everything goes right, but if you don't for sure it's going to be an incident."
The Frenchman added that he would have behaved differently to Massa had he been the one challenging for the title.
"I've been in this position many times, especially the position he is in fighting for championships and you just don't take unnecessary risks like this," said Bourdais.
"You've got everything to lose and nothing to gain. He was going to pit in three laps, I was ahead of him and he was going to finish behind us anyway. Why would you even think about doing something like that? I don't understand."
Despite feeling he was blameless in the incident, Bourdais wasn't surprised to receive a penalty.
"No, because every time I get called to the (stewards) meeting rooms, one way or the other it goes against me," he said.
"I don't know why, I don't know what I've done. I don't think I have done anything wrong on this one and unfortunately it ruins the weekend, takes away three points for the team and gives Felipe another point - I am really happy for him, obviously!
"I don't know what I was supposed to do basically. I could have unrolled the red carpet and given him the corner. That is the only thing I could have done."
I don't hate Hamilton Brad and I don't hate you or any other supporter. Hell I went to the Grand Prix of Belgium with my best mate who is a Mclaren fan.
Hamilton has learned another lesson today and we can only hope he keeps it in mind for the rest of his career. He should have just backed off in the first corner and take all points he could without taking too much of a risk. You don't win championships if you keep doing things like he did today.
And I find the Bourdais penalty unfair, like I said earlier.
This one is an absolute belter...http://blogs.iht.com/tribtalk/sports/f1/?p=514
"Through further investigation, it seems that the race stewards are arguing that upon his exit from the pit lane, Bourdais was presented with flashing blue lights that were to tell him that a fast car was on its way. But as Bourdais pointed out, he and Massa were actually racing for position. So the question is, are drivers supposed to slow down to a stop to let their competitors pass? We see races decided on such pit-lane exits all the time - Raikkonen today failed by the smallest of margins to get out ahead of Kubica after his pit stop"
They're clearly just making it up as they go along! Bourdais is expected to wait until his competitor has passed to exit the pit lane? When have you ever heard such nonsense. Bourdais is penalised for this, yet when Massa actually pulled out into the path of Sutil in the Valencia pit lane, he gets a monetary penalty?
The sad thing is that bias bitter supporters will try to argue this is all fair and reasonable. I have bias supporting Hamilton, but at least I don't hide it. And I'm happy I'd feel the same if it was a driver of a different nationality involved in the title race. The decisions stink that bad right now
And apparently this was Hamiltons fault and not Massa's, what planet is this guy on?
Just feck off!
You Ferrari haters.
You Ferrari haters.
There is a reason why we hate them
Massa and especially Ferrari are cheating c**ts.
Massa should be demoted and Ferrari's points for this race should be withdrawn.
The FIA should be fecked right in the ear and a breakaway competition should be established.
It's obvious the FIA are racist, starting with Max.
Massa should be demoted and Ferrari's points for this race should be withdrawn.
The FIA should be fecked right in the ear and a breakaway competition should be established.
It's obvious the FIA are racist, starting with Max.
And they call me a blind an bitter racing fan.
argue all you want, but surely getting off to people pretending to be nazi's is a signal?
okay perhaps my last sentence in my first post was a little off the mark, but it does raise suspicions when people enjoy these kind of activities.
My first sentences however are totally justified.
The rerun is on ITV now.
Actually noone is denying that Massa's move wasn't wrong, and yes it is clear that Hamilton wasn't to blame since he left Massa room.
Let's just view Hamilton's incident at the first corner in isolation, and it's hard to make a case that he didn't do anything wrong there.
Let's just view Hamilton's incident at the first corner in isolation, and it's hard to make a case that he didn't do anything wrong there.
He was in the wrong.
The biggest problem I have was Massa deliberately took Hamilton out, and Massa then took Bourdais out and apparently its not his fault?
Where is the justice?
Massa himself is denying it!!!
It's not hard to find no wrongdoing at the first corner at all. Are we going to bring a rule into formula 1 that if someone at the front of the grid outbreaks themself, he has to suffer a penalty? The whole field broke too late. It was rash by Hamilton, but it was simply racing. Not exactly the same as driving into your rival at a chicane, and having the audacity to claim it wasn't your fault. But apparently the stewards believe it is, and penalised them the same
And what the feck poor old Bourdais did to deserve his demotion is anyones guess. Certainly non of that invented bollocks the stewards came up with about blue lights at the end of the pit lane
And apparently this was Hamiltons fault and not Massa's, what planet is this guy on?
the race stewards already penalised Massa for that with a drive through penalty, what more do you want?
wow I can imagien uproar here in this forum if Lewis Hamilton don't take the championship and they say ferrari cheated to win.
Just my two cents worth,
I think that Bourdais and Massa was a racing incident between both drivers who were fighting for position. Didn't see anything wrong with what Bourdais did but you can understand Massa's move because the position was there to be taken, Bourdais still on cold tires and not up to speed and that was the time if ever to take him.
First corner I don't see how Hamilton could have taken Raikkonen without doing what he did which was to hopelessly outbrake himself and go beyond the apex of the corner, which ruined Raikkonen's race as he made a clean start but was punished by some poor driving for someone who claims to be the best in the business or even as good as Senna? By doing what he did he forced a fair few drivers well wide with nowhere to go, isn't that wrong in any sense? If he was on the outside and he outbraked himself I don't see a problem but he jumped on Raikkonen on the inside and put others in jeopardy which is the main problem here. And re Raikkonen's start as Spa I'd give it to him for his car control on the slippery bit that was quite something! But in all fairness it would be better to look at other cameras when he got back on track I'd like to think he looked at his rear view mirrors before coming back on.
Massa-Hamilton I've already said that it was Massa's fault but I'm not surprised that he didn't take the blame for it. He's a fast driver but not good enough to win the championship imo, not in the same class as Kimi or Hamilton in that sense, too many brainfades to allow him to deserve one.
Also, Alonso is underrated haven't seen much praise for him, pesronally I think he's the best driver on the grid currently and hopefully Renault will be able to provide him with a car that is able to challenge next year.
I think that Bourdais and Massa was a racing incident between both drivers who were fighting for position. Didn't see anything wrong with what Bourdais did but you can understand Massa's move because the position was there to be taken, Bourdais still on cold tires and not up to speed and that was the time if ever to take him.
First corner I don't see how Hamilton could have taken Raikkonen without doing what he did which was to hopelessly outbrake himself and go beyond the apex of the corner, which ruined Raikkonen's race as he made a clean start but was punished by some poor driving for someone who claims to be the best in the business or even as good as Senna? By doing what he did he forced a fair few drivers well wide with nowhere to go, isn't that wrong in any sense? If he was on the outside and he outbraked himself I don't see a problem but he jumped on Raikkonen on the inside and put others in jeopardy which is the main problem here. And re Raikkonen's start as Spa I'd give it to him for his car control on the slippery bit that was quite something! But in all fairness it would be better to look at other cameras when he got back on track I'd like to think he looked at his rear view mirrors before coming back on.
Massa-Hamilton I've already said that it was Massa's fault but I'm not surprised that he didn't take the blame for it. He's a fast driver but not good enough to win the championship imo, not in the same class as Kimi or Hamilton in that sense, too many brainfades to allow him to deserve one.
Also, Alonso is underrated haven't seen much praise for him, pesronally I think he's the best driver on the grid currently and hopefully Renault will be able to provide him with a car that is able to challenge next year.