The F1 Thread 2008 Season

The Bourdais descision was absoluely shameful. An insult to the fans and another blow to the integrity of F1, if there was any left to begin with.

The only way this season can be saved is if Hamilton wins the WDC and Ferarri and the FAI finish with feck all. McLaren aren't just competing against the Scuderia, they're fighting against the powers that be. The bias of the stewards is now past the stage of conspiracy - it's an evident reality.
 
Castolo said:
The Bourdais descision was absoluely shameful. An insult to the fans and another blow to the integrity of F1, if there was any left to begin with.

The only way this season can be saved is if Hamilton wins the WDC and Ferarri and the FAI finish with feck all. McLaren aren't just competing against the Scuderia, they're fighting against the powers that be. The bias of the stewards is now past the stage of conspiracy - it's an evident reality.
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I thought half way through the race, I'd be spending my day complaining about the Hamilton decision on the first corner. And I still think that was entirely wrong. I would have thought nothing of it had it been Massa in his place. It was simply racing, pure and simple. You'd have to go back and rewrite the history of F1 if you're penalising things like that

But the greater travesty, as you say, is for Bourdais. He did absolutely nothing wrong. Are the stewards expecting him to come to a halt when the blue lights are on in the pit lane? Hmm, so when he eventually trundles out of the pit lane at no speed, would that not be a million times more dangerous than coming out at maximum allowed speed? As long as he stays within the white markers, which he did, everything is fine. It's up to Massa to give him enough space. You can't even give Massa the benefit of the doubt given how he drove needlessly into Hamilton earlier

I don't know what right Bourdais has of appeal, but I wouldn't stand for it if I was Red Bull. Of course we just tested in court that there's no right of appeal to such a drive through penalty applied after the race, so basically the stewards can twist the rules as they wish without challenge. Absolute fecking farce
 
*Yawn*

I do hope Massa wins this championship so that I can watch the Hamilton fans screaming about how he was robbed by clearly biased officials. I suppose, though, that even if he wins I'll not ever see the end of his "triumph against the odds" and his "win not just against his championship rivals but the corrupt powers-that-be". I can't win, really.

Still, on a brighter note it's back-to-back wins for my man, now.
 
Count Duckula said:
*Yawn*

I do hope Massa wins this championship so that I can watch the Hamilton fans screaming about how he was robbed by clearly biased officials. I suppose, though, that even if he wins I'll not ever see the end of his "triumph against the odds" and his "win not just against his championship rivals but the corrupt powers-that-be". I can't win, really.

Still, on a brighter note it's back-to-back wins for my man, now.
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No Count. If he loses, he loses. But can you seriously say you're happy with the decision making thats going on at the moment? Decisions of ultra harshness, say Hamilton on the first corner today, or Bourdais exiting the pitlane; against decisions of ultra leniency, say Massa in the pit lane at Valencia. I've forgotten what actual motor racing is like, it seems the slightest mistake or overtaking manouvre constitutes a penalty at the moment. F1 has never been like this

I think two things have to happen to improve on this situation. Firstly we need full time professional stewards that attend every race. Secondly, there has to be an avenue to appeal racing decisions. The reason given for Bourdais' demotion is just a crock of utter horse shit, he ought to be able to overturn the decision
 
Brad said:
No Count. If he loses, he loses. But can you seriously say you're happy with the decision making thats going on at the moment? Decisions of ultra harshness, say Hamilton on the first corner today, or Bourdais exiting the pitlane; against decisions of ultra leniency, say Massa in the pit lane at Valencia. I've forgotten what actual motor racing is like, it seems the slightest mistake or overtaking manouvre constitutes a penalty at the moment. F1 has never been like this

I think two things have to happen to improve on this situation. Firstly we need full time professional stewards that attend every race. Secondly, there has to be an avenue to appeal racing decisions. The reason given for Bourdais' demotion is just a crock of utter horse shit, he ought to be able to overturn the decision
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I have no doubt that the penalties and such being applied at the moment are ridiculous; I never said that they weren't. What tickles me is that the Hamilton fans are actually claiming that the decisions aren't just retarded stewards being morons (which they are), but that there's an active conspiracy in progress to prevent Hamilton winning and promote a Ferrari-based agenda. It's one thing to complain about him getting some harsh decisions (again, fairly -- he has had bad luck), but I do find the lengths to which some people are going to paint Hamilton the victim very amusing.

People should relax; he's got it in the bag. He's a brilliant driver, better than Massa, he's five points clear with two races left and he should be able to come second easily in both. There's no doubt in my mind that he'll win the title, but I can't help but fear the horrific media over-reaction when he does. I'll not hear the end of it, and the little cock will probably win a knighthood or somesuch ("deservedly!", the British public will cry). As someone else said, disliking Hamilton does not make me bitter; he's a very dislikeable person. I'm not bitter as I can agree that he's very good, and he will win Championships. Doesn't mean I have to like him doing it.

Another reason that I know he'll win, and what makes it a sure-fire bet, is that I used up my allotment of sporting luck in May this year. The Double exhausted my supply for 2008, resulting in a Spanish European Cup win, Nadal lifting the Wimbledon trophy, Phelps winning eight golds and beating the Serb because he pushed the button harder and will also, inevitably, lead to Hamilton claiming the Driver's Championship at the end of the season.

I do find it funny, though, that in the past three races neither of the two drivers battling it out for the title have actually managed to win. Reminds me of the Spanish league last year, where Barcelona and Real Madrid were almost doing their utmost to hand it to the competition.
 
I don't know how you defend Hamiltons first corner thing...

Even the ultra Hamilton biased commentators were saying it was an incident etc.

Lets face it, Hamilton fecks up under extreme pressure, did it last year and it's happening again now, he cocked his start up, nearly ran his team mate off, then would have wiped Raikkonen out with his moronic braking. He obviously did something MAJORLY wrong to flat spot his tyres as far down as he did.

The Bourdais one was a joke though, nothing should have happened there, that was simply just a racing incident, they got too close and touched, Massa spun. That should have been that.
 
Slevin said:
I don't know how you defend Hamiltons first corner thing...

Even the ultra Hamilton biased commentators were saying it was an incident etc.

Lets face it, Hamilton fecks up under extreme pressure, did it last year and it's happening again now, he cocked his start up, nearly ran his team mate off, then would have wiped Raikkonen out with his moronic braking. He obviously did something MAJORLY wrong to flat spot his tyres as far down as he did.

The Bourdais one was a joke though, nothing should have happened there, that was simply just a racing incident, they got too close and touched, Massa spun. That should have been that.
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He made a mistake, no ones denying that Slevin. There was no requirement to make such a bold reovertake of Kimi at the first corner. He's not a title rival, he should have just slipped into second. Massa was still far behind having qualified poorly. It's his second season in F1, I'm not suprised we're still seeing some mistakes from him, especially as the pressure mounts. Still, he could be World Champion by the end of the next race, he still has the cards stacked in his favour

I think any long term observer of F1 is going to tell you to give a penalty for what Hamilton did on the first corner is utter nonsense. It's a racing incident. The day a car doesn't break too late and overshoot the first corner will be a strange one. And of course that can affect the rest of the grid behind, but thats just racing. Kimi himself overshot the corner, if he'd have taken his normal line, he'd have been able to pass Hamilton inside. As soon as you're giving penalties for this, the racing ends because it means stewards are involved in everything

The Bourdais one is just insulting to the watching public. To suggest he has to come to a stop when the blue lights are on at the end of the pit lane is utter garbage. That'd be a far more dangerous thing to do, a car limping out onto the circuit. It's the responsibilty of the car coming round the circuit to give the pit exiting car enough space, its not like that car has the option of going on the outside. Massa was a very lucky boy this weekend, its a good job he just happens to have decisions going entirely in his favour
 
Count Duckula said:
Still, on a brighter note it's back-to-back wins for my man, now.
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Your boyfriend is the talented, bitter yet arrogant Spaniard Fernando Alonso? Wow, you kept all of that pretty quiet.
He's been talking more unnecessary sh!t again about helping Massa win and being glad Hamilton was penalised even though he didn't know what happened. What a total c0ck. Good racing driver, mind.
 
Hamilton accuses Massa over crash

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7665767.stm

Lewis Hamilton has accused title rival Felipe Massa of deliberately running into him in the Japanese Grand Prix.

The two men collided as Hamilton tried to pass Massa's Ferrari on the second lap. The Brazilian was handed a drive-through penalty for the incident.

"I took the corner normally and Felipe came back very aggressively and hit me," said Hamilton, whose championship lead was cut by two points to five.

"I think that was pretty much as deliberate as can be."

Massa denied deliberately running into the McLaren, which was tipped into a spin. Hamilton had to wait for the entire field to pass before resuming his race.

"In my opinion it was a racing incident and we both paid a penalty," Massa said.

"For me, he braked too late and pushed me out of the track. I couldn't stop the car as I was in the gravel and I was in the gravel because he pushed me."

And he said he would not be goaded into criticising Hamilton.

"I have a good relationship with Lewis and I will not do anything to destroy it. Definitely not," Massa said.

"I'm not the kind of guy who brings problems on the track to the outside, and I will not change my approach."

Hamilton and Massa's hopes were both hit in the incident-packed race. The McLaren driver, his car damaged in the collision with Massa, failed to score points by finishing 12th, but Massa was only able to score two points for seventh place.

BMW Sauber's Robert Kubica has now joined them in the title fight - with a maximum of 20 points available, the Pole is 12 points behind Hamilton after finishing second behind Renault's Fernando Alonso at Fuji.

Hamilton can win the championship in China on Sunday if he scores six more points than Massa.

The incident between Hamilton and Massa happened on the second lap, when the Englishman was trying to make up ground he lost in an incident at the first corner, which dropped him to sixth.

Hamilton dived down the inside into the first, right-handed part of the Turn 10/11 chicane and Massa ran wide. The Ferrari driver had his car fully over the kerbs as he went through the left-handed part and collided with Hamilton's McLaren as he rejoined the track.

"I went up the inside because Felipe braked late and gave me the advantage," Hamilton said.

The 23-year-old was was angry that he received the same penalty as Massa for a different incident at the first corner of the race.

Hamilton had made a slow start and was passed by Massa's team-mate Kimi Raikkonen on the run down to the first corner.

He left his braking too late, locked up his front tyres and slide off the track, taking Raikkonen with him.

Hamilton damaged his front tyres enough in the incident that he would have to have come into the pits anyway, regardless of the subsequent incident with Massa.

He admitted he had made a mistake - but said he did not believe it merited a penalty.

"We (he and Massa) both got the same penalty but I didn't hit anybody - he did. That's just the name of the game, I guess," he said.

"My personal disappointment is the start and the way I'm treated.

"Everyone went wide [at the start] but for some reason I got a penalty for that. I can't understand that.

"But it doesn't really matter if I agree with it, I can't change it and I just need to keep it together.

"I don't think it makes any difference [to the title race]. We'll move on next week and make sure we win the last two races.

"We plan on winning; not at any cost, but we plan on winning.

"You can wish you did something differently but I made a mistake and I paid for it," said the Englishman, whose lead has been cut to five points.

"It's damage limitation. Forget this race ever happened and move on."

Massa fought his way back to finish in eighth but was later promoted to seventh, after Sebastian Bourdais was penalised for colliding with the Ferrari while racing for position.

The Frenchman's Toro Rosso was on the inside of Turn One having just left the pits. The two cars touched in the centre of the corner as Massa tried to pass on the outside and the Ferrari spun.

Bourdais, demoted from sixth to 10th, was mystified as to why he had been given a penalty.

"What was I supposed to do?" he asked. "Roll out the red carpet?"
 
Brad said:
Hamilton accuses Massa over crash

_45101956_hammassabody226.jpg


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7665767.stm

Lewis Hamilton has accused title rival Felipe Massa of deliberately running into him in the Japanese Grand Prix.

The two men collided as Hamilton tried to pass Massa's Ferrari on the second lap. The Brazilian was handed a drive-through penalty for the incident.

"I took the corner normally and Felipe came back very aggressively and hit me," said Hamilton, whose championship lead was cut by two points to five.

"I think that was pretty much as deliberate as can be."

Massa denied deliberately running into the McLaren, which was tipped into a spin. Hamilton had to wait for the entire field to pass before resuming his race.

"In my opinion it was a racing incident and we both paid a penalty," Massa said.

"For me, he braked too late and pushed me out of the track. I couldn't stop the car as I was in the gravel and I was in the gravel because he pushed me."

And he said he would not be goaded into criticising Hamilton.

"I have a good relationship with Lewis and I will not do anything to destroy it. Definitely not," Massa said.

"I'm not the kind of guy who brings problems on the track to the outside, and I will not change my approach."

Hamilton and Massa's hopes were both hit in the incident-packed race. The McLaren driver, his car damaged in the collision with Massa, failed to score points by finishing 12th, but Massa was only able to score two points for seventh place.

BMW Sauber's Robert Kubica has now joined them in the title fight - with a maximum of 20 points available, the Pole is 12 points behind Hamilton after finishing second behind Renault's Fernando Alonso at Fuji.

Hamilton can win the championship in China on Sunday if he scores six more points than Massa.

The incident between Hamilton and Massa happened on the second lap, when the Englishman was trying to make up ground he lost in an incident at the first corner, which dropped him to sixth.

Hamilton dived down the inside into the first, right-handed part of the Turn 10/11 chicane and Massa ran wide. The Ferrari driver had his car fully over the kerbs as he went through the left-handed part and collided with Hamilton's McLaren as he rejoined the track.

"I went up the inside because Felipe braked late and gave me the advantage," Hamilton said.

The 23-year-old was was angry that he received the same penalty as Massa for a different incident at the first corner of the race.

Hamilton had made a slow start and was passed by Massa's team-mate Kimi Raikkonen on the run down to the first corner.

He left his braking too late, locked up his front tyres and slide off the track, taking Raikkonen with him.

Hamilton damaged his front tyres enough in the incident that he would have to have come into the pits anyway, regardless of the subsequent incident with Massa.

He admitted he had made a mistake - but said he did not believe it merited a penalty.

"We (he and Massa) both got the same penalty but I didn't hit anybody - he did. That's just the name of the game, I guess," he said.

"My personal disappointment is the start and the way I'm treated.

"Everyone went wide [at the start] but for some reason I got a penalty for that. I can't understand that.

"But it doesn't really matter if I agree with it, I can't change it and I just need to keep it together.

"I don't think it makes any difference [to the title race]. We'll move on next week and make sure we win the last two races.

"We plan on winning; not at any cost, but we plan on winning.

"You can wish you did something differently but I made a mistake and I paid for it," said the Englishman, whose lead has been cut to five points.

"It's damage limitation. Forget this race ever happened and move on."

Massa fought his way back to finish in eighth but was later promoted to seventh, after Sebastian Bourdais was penalised for colliding with the Ferrari while racing for position.

The Frenchman's Toro Rosso was on the inside of Turn One having just left the pits. The two cars touched in the centre of the corner as Massa tried to pass on the outside and the Ferrari spun.

Bourdais, demoted from sixth to 10th, was mystified as to why he had been given a penalty.

"What was I supposed to do?" he asked. "Roll out the red carpet?"
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Drivers in supporting themselves shocker.
 
One of their stance is repeatedly upheld by the actions of neutral stewards race after race.

The other is penalized for his rash driving race after race.

One of them is respected by fellow racers as a fair driver

The other is criticized by possibly every driver on the grid including a former teammate as a rash and unsafe.

I think you can work out which is which :)
 
To be fair, Lewis has always been on the line and many a time over the line with his driving style. Crying foul over every questionable decision is like Ronaldo claiming that he never dives and isn't being protected by refs. If you have a history of going to ground easily, a few fouls are unlikely to be given. If you have a history of rash driving, a few penalties are likely to go against you. The stewards are not being biased towards Ferrari but perhaps as human as the professional referees in the league
 
I'd rather they started racing instead of all this bickering.

That's why we have all this bitterness and stupid decisions. The stewards have put themselves in a hard position by acting on it a few races ago. No doubt Ferrari and Mclaren have been calling foul for each and every tiny incident since, which is why we are seeing the silly penalties now. It looks like they are too scared to let someone off even on a 50/50 and if they punish one then the other is likely to get it as well, saving themselves on a backlash. I think someone said it on the last page - nobody wins like this - the championship has now soured out.
 
So he's being judged harshly because he is a harsh driver, intriguing. That's not what I saw yesterday Karma. Yesterday it was Massa who was deliberately running in to fellow drivers and stealing their race lines.
 
Instant Karma said:
Any driver who overcooks a corner but in that feck up of his, forces the driver he is trying to overtake off the track deserves a penalty. Thats the rule which has been implemented consistently by stewards. Raikonnen had the racing line and had no choice but to go off the track to avoid a first turn pile up at high speed.

Any driver can break late going into a chicane, lock wheels and force the driver ahead of him off the track. Most sensible one's don't.

Do you think that Kimi in the few laps that he was close behind Kubica, didnt have the option of breaking late, overcooking a corner and take the place by forcing Kubica off the track ?

There is a reason why Hamilton has been universally condemned for his rash and stupid driving by almost every driver on the track at some point this season.
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That's bang on, well said.

Hamilton is a cocky twat by the way.

The Bourdais penalty is a complete joke.
 
They don't like him do they but it's not just current drivers former ones as well. I think he can be a bit aggressive thats his style but allot of the criticism Lewis is getting is over the top.
 
They don't like him because he's better than them

Simple really

F1 is crying out for bold aggressive drivers like Hamilton, not afraid to attempt an audacious passing manouvre. We get one, and half the World whinges about it

It's incredible, the race after Massa quite clearly drove into his championship rival on purpose, people are focusing on Hamiltons racing conduct...
 
I doubt everybody is slating him solely out of spite and jealousy.

Watch his overtaking manoeuvres from earlier on in the season. He went through a little phase where whenever he overtook, he proceeded to move across and push them out wide. I even mentioned it briefly in this thread before - its still racing but it is a bit cheeky and not always needed. Drivers have been talking about it for a while now anyway - of course some of it is over the top but then it is coming through the media.

I actually think he has calmed that down, not really noticed it as much lately. It can't be denied that he's arrogant though and that he gets a bit hot under the collar, I don't think you can blame the first corner in the last race on anything else. He really does have to learn, he doesn't want to be throwing this championship away as well, there have been too many mistakes already - a reason why quite a few now want Kubica to win.

People really do have to remember his age though - its to be expected.


On another note, I used to think Bernie was acting a prick trying to force night races through especially in Australia. . . but now I'm sat here with the prospect of an early morning qualifying and race!
 
Hamilton on Pole, Raikkonen 2nd, Massa 3rd, Alonso 4th, Kovailainen 5th, really is a mouth watering prospect that, repeat of Fuji perhaps?
 
What time does the race start tomorrow? Not the coverage, just the race. I will need as much sleep as possible tonight, long day tomorrow..
 
muller said:
What time does the race start tomorrow? Not the coverage, just the race. I will need as much sleep as possible tonight, long day tomorrow..
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I gathered from the other thread that you have a busy day schudueled for tommorow; the race starts at 8:00 UK time.
 
8am race start. Hooked my laptop up to my aerial this week so I don't even need to get out of bed for these early morning races :) Also remember Hamilton can effectively become WDC tomorrow, but its unlikely.
 
Talks of rain as well. I worry for Hamilton with Raikkonen right behind him again, someone who effectively has nothing to lose. If Hamilton can make it round the first 2-3 laps clean then I fancy his chances.

If I was uncle Ron I would be telling Kovailainen to earn his money and make sure he does something this race.
 
Leg-End said:
Talks of rain as well. I worry for Hamilton with Raikkonen right behind him again, someone who effectively has nothing to lose.
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'World conspiring against Lewis' paranoia from the English fans once again?

Kovalienen is behind Massa on the grid too and he is probably more capable of an overzealous move on Massa than Kimi on Lewis. Kovaleinen has nothing to lose and also importantly nothing to win either.

Lewis and Kovalienen have crashed into Kimi more than the other way around.
 
Hardly, what I meant was Raikkonen might be trying a move that otherwise he wouldn't, and after what Hamilton did at Fuji I know I would. We all know Hamilton hates to give up a position, the only saving grace is its a shorted run down to turn 1 and its a sweeper.
 
Leg-End said:
Talks of rain as well. I worry for Hamilton with Raikkonen right behind him again, someone who effectively has nothing to lose. If Hamilton can make it round the first 2-3 laps clean then I fancy his chances.

If I was uncle Ron I would be telling Kovailainen to earn his money and make sure he does something this race.
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Kimi and rain? Nothing to worry about mate. He is fecking useless when it rains.

I can see Hamilton wrapping it up tomorrow.. he will come 1st, Massa and Kubica will both crash on the first corner :D
 
If Massa goes out and Hamilton gets more than five points then Hamilton will win the WDC tomorrow. And I genuinly think there's a good chance of that happening. Especially with Hamilton on the front row.

I've got to admit, too, that Hamilton is the best driver on the grid at this moment in time. His car is currently not as good as the Ferrari, and yet he was able to out-qualify both of them whilst his teammate showed how truly inferior the McLaren is when they're compared by limping into fifth place.

What Hamilton has to watch out for is there's two drivers right behind him who have little to lose and a lot to gain by having an unfortunate "accident" with the back of the McLaren. Raikkonen might not be the sort of person who'd normally do that but he's probably still feeling a little pissed off from the first corner in the last race, and you never know what his bosses at Ferrari have been telling him to do.

And the other driver, of course, is Alonso, who's actually been quoted as not just saying that he hopes Hamilton doesn't win, but that he'll do "whatever necessary" to help Massa and prevent the Brit from winning the WDC. Surprised he wasn't punished since he's essentially admitting he'll crash into Hamilton if he's given half a chance, but then I suppose he doesn't drive for McLaren, so why would he be?

Basically, Hamilton is going to have to be very careful at the start of this race, particularly on the first corner. If he remains incident free for the first few laps then I can easily see him pulling away and having this race totally in the bag, especially if it rains. Going to be a very interesting two hours.
 
fecking excellent post Duck.

Opening laps are vital, and there are dangers in the forms of drivers all racing for the season or revenge.
 
I don't like to see it but the way Ferrari acted when Massa punted Hamilton around I would love to see retribution
 
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