Yeah, will drop Kluivert for Hierro and move Masopust up. Can drop in for back 4 too.
If your advantage is attack why do you need another man there?
Not enough going by score line.
The Euro Draft - QF - Team EAP vs Raees
- Thread starter Balu
- Start date
Yeah, will drop Kluivert for Hierro and move Masopust up. Can drop in for back 4 too.
Not enough going by score line.
Do you see the advantages anto? I can't see major drawbacks.
With nothing in attack would prefer to attack his wing back's than defend against them.
With nothing in attack would prefer to attack his wing back's than defend against them.
You don't get my point. In this match he MUST cover for Facchetti and Kaizer. Having a attacking game is detrimental to his team not a even things factor.
Being played in a different formation means he needs to do a job he did not do (no proof) in Euro's. Without his cover Gullit will run riot and it's a no contest.
@Edgar Allan Pillow Relax man, you're getting too into it right now. Your team is fine as it is and the new option is really bad. Instead of spending all time questioning Raees players - make yourself a favour and talk about your own.
It's almost perfect except that it is worse than your original line-up in every possible way
Too taekwando!
What's that?
Van Basten's volley at the end of that move
. One of the sweetest strikers of the ball ever.Kluivert!
So underrated. So ignored.
He is ability to bring others into play is just ignored here, partly because I spent time fixated on other issues. With players like Puskas and Gullit playing off him, I really don't think Raees defence can stop us.
As I said before I still rate my offence to score. Individually I still expect Puskas and Gullit to get over their markers. With Beckenbauer helping them out, Kluivert will be the dark horse here.
So underrated. So ignored.
He is ability to bring others into play is just ignored here, partly because I spent time fixated on other issues. With players like Puskas and Gullit playing off him, I really don't think Raees defence can stop us.
As I said before I still rate my offence to score. Individually I still expect Puskas and Gullit to get over their markers. With Beckenbauer helping them out, Kluivert will be the dark horse here.
It's gorgeous isn't it. I recently watched highlights of all of Holland's games just to find that volley again.Van Basten's volley at the end of that move
That was one of the great international defences. Nesta, Cannavaro and Maldini all at or near their peak. With typically ruthless, solid and unspectacular support acts in Luliano and Pessotto. They even managed to shut out Kluivert in the semi-final, even giving him a penalty to miss.
Classic example of the whole being more than the sum of parts. Kluivert was coming from an indifferent spell at Milan and early on he was "just" a striker to be fed by Rivaldo and Figo.
At some point something clicked and he realised he was playing with a really exceptional player and slowly but surely it started switching to Kluivert the forward who turned into provider and assister.
Both Kluivert AND Rivaldo experienced their most prolific peaks as a result. Exactly what Puskas and Gullit needed.
I do like the balance in midfield we have with Soren Lerby and Frank Rijkaard. Both complete midfielders capable at both ends of the park but most importantly of governing the game in the middle.
There's a good story from the Euro 1984 semi-final between Denmark and Spain. The Spanish were causing all sorts of problems down their right flank. So Lerby tells his left-back to get to feck and takes over his position, helping to stem the tide and bring the Danes back into the game.
That's one of the rationales for having him and Rijkaard in the team when there are some talented playmakers behind them in Beckenbauer and Facchetti. They can drop into defensive roles as and when required. That's why we ditched Pirlo for this one, because for all his absolute class in 2012, he wouldn't have the defensive nous to integrate defence and midfield like Lerby and Rijkaard do.
There's a good story from the Euro 1984 semi-final between Denmark and Spain. The Spanish were causing all sorts of problems down their right flank. So Lerby tells his left-back to get to feck and takes over his position, helping to stem the tide and bring the Danes back into the game.
That's one of the rationales for having him and Rijkaard in the team when there are some talented playmakers behind them in Beckenbauer and Facchetti. They can drop into defensive roles as and when required. That's why we ditched Pirlo for this one, because for all his absolute class in 2012, he wouldn't have the defensive nous to integrate defence and midfield like Lerby and Rijkaard do.
Come on, you are now rating Luciano and Pessotto?
That was never a dominant unit and you know it.Solid, ruthless, unspectacular - yes that is a fair description of that pair. That Italian defence conceded just 3 goals in 6 games at Euro 2000 and somehow kept a dominant Holland at bay with just 10 men after Zambrotta got sent off in the first half of the semi-final.Come on, you are now rating Luciano and Pessotto?
It was a great defense and they only conceded 2 goals in their 5 games prior to the final whilst keeping a clean sheet in the quarter final and the semis. They could have won the whole damn thing had it not been for an equalizer 3 minutes into injury time and then the golden goal of course.
An insane midfield duo and that anecdote is so Soren Lerby
I actually like* the pair and how they protect your defence. In fact, it's the main reason I haven't voted against you. I actually can't see you scoring more than once at best, the question is whether you will concede two. The other reason is Team EAP have made a complete meal of pretty much everything they could make a meal of.
*understatement of the Century
Best attackers on the pitch: Puskas and Kluivert.
The normal area of operations of Puskas and Gullit would fall nicely between his midfield and defence. This means that both Rijkaard nor Lerby will be able to have a free role to influence the game. They always have to be ready to rush back to lend a hand in defence.
Kluivert is the best pivot which brings the best out of Puskas and Gullit. He will be be the deepest man on the pitch forcing Beckenbauer to stay back or he can move up either side and force CB's to track him opening the way for Puskas or Gullit. Himself a golden boot winner, he will be lethal, and perfect man to throw a spanner into his defensive works.
Best midfielder on the pitch: Masopust
Rijkaard here is caught between Puskas behind and Masopust ahead of him. Not even him can cope with that. Puskas is pacey and mobile and with the movement and passing of Masopust, he has a near impossible task to cover. On the other hand Lerby will not have much joy against Gullit. Try containing a peak Gullit! No matter how good Lerby is, Gullit with Physically and technically dominate him. Schweini is the perfect foil that side. Be it moving wide or cutting in, he will reach Gullit often. I rarely see my supply route being impacted by the presence of Rijkaard or Lerby.
Take the flip side. With defensive duties added to them, I simply don't see them linking with Suarez and even if they do, we have Deschamps there to put a dampener on things. I see Henry and Zlatan dropping deeper to see the ball and that dilutes the attack threat to a great extent.
Individual battles:
Puskas vs Kohler - Puskas is just too talented for even Kohler to keep out full game.
Gullit vs Zebec - Gullit all day. With his physicality and movement, he will emerge clear victor.
Kluivert vs Kaizer - This is not exactly a battle as all Kluivert needs to do is to occupy Kaizer and prevent him from doing his libero role and he will do that. With him offering hold up play, the individual battles across will tip the game in my favour.
Defence:
Blanc is right there at the top when it comes to Euro peak. Campbell's pedigree is beyong question too. I don't see either Henry or Zlatan having a easy time. And as I mention above without a regular supply they will be starved of possession which tips this in my favour too.
- Facchetti faces Durkovic, a TotT winner from times when it was not a farce. He is definitely capable of handling whatever Facchetti throws up.
- Breitner vs Amoros - Loaded in my favour. Amoros is not even close to his peak and he'll he hard pressed to stop a prime Breitner. I own this flank! Add in the disadvantage Rijkaard already is in, presence of Breitner is just too hot for his team to handle.
Confusion in opponent's defence:
Easier said than done. He will constantly keep flitting between the lines tying up both players. Neither has the freedom to leave Puskas to the others and support other areas of the pitch. It works to my favour, rather than them tying up Puskas, it will be Puskas tying up both of them.
Kluivert will occupy Beckenbauer. He'll just be a thrid CB and have less time to do his libero role here.
One-to-one always favours the attack. I simply don't see me not scoring...and I will score more than once.
The normal area of operations of Puskas and Gullit would fall nicely between his midfield and defence. This means that both Rijkaard nor Lerby will be able to have a free role to influence the game. They always have to be ready to rush back to lend a hand in defence.
Kluivert is the best pivot which brings the best out of Puskas and Gullit. He will be be the deepest man on the pitch forcing Beckenbauer to stay back or he can move up either side and force CB's to track him opening the way for Puskas or Gullit. Himself a golden boot winner, he will be lethal, and perfect man to throw a spanner into his defensive works.
Best midfielder on the pitch: Masopust
Rijkaard here is caught between Puskas behind and Masopust ahead of him. Not even him can cope with that. Puskas is pacey and mobile and with the movement and passing of Masopust, he has a near impossible task to cover. On the other hand Lerby will not have much joy against Gullit. Try containing a peak Gullit! No matter how good Lerby is, Gullit with Physically and technically dominate him. Schweini is the perfect foil that side. Be it moving wide or cutting in, he will reach Gullit often. I rarely see my supply route being impacted by the presence of Rijkaard or Lerby.
Take the flip side. With defensive duties added to them, I simply don't see them linking with Suarez and even if they do, we have Deschamps there to put a dampener on things. I see Henry and Zlatan dropping deeper to see the ball and that dilutes the attack threat to a great extent.
Individual battles:
Puskas vs Kohler - Puskas is just too talented for even Kohler to keep out full game.
Gullit vs Zebec - Gullit all day. With his physicality and movement, he will emerge clear victor.
Kluivert vs Kaizer - This is not exactly a battle as all Kluivert needs to do is to occupy Kaizer and prevent him from doing his libero role and he will do that. With him offering hold up play, the individual battles across will tip the game in my favour.
Defence:
Blanc is right there at the top when it comes to Euro peak. Campbell's pedigree is beyong question too. I don't see either Henry or Zlatan having a easy time. And as I mention above without a regular supply they will be starved of possession which tips this in my favour too.
- Facchetti faces Durkovic, a TotT winner from times when it was not a farce. He is definitely capable of handling whatever Facchetti throws up.
- Breitner vs Amoros - Loaded in my favour. Amoros is not even close to his peak and he'll he hard pressed to stop a prime Breitner. I own this flank! Add in the disadvantage Rijkaard already is in, presence of Breitner is just too hot for his team to handle.
Confusion in opponent's defence:
Easier said than done. He will constantly keep flitting between the lines tying up both players. Neither has the freedom to leave Puskas to the others and support other areas of the pitch. It works to my favour, rather than them tying up Puskas, it will be Puskas tying up both of them.
Kluivert will occupy Beckenbauer. He'll just be a thrid CB and have less time to do his libero role here.
One-to-one always favours the attack. I simply don't see me not scoring...and I will score more than once.
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What the feck's going on here? At least some action in a game, finally
I've made it to Page 3 and I have to give up for now. Too much information. Voted EAP and I cant fecking believe I levelled the score. I was really hoping my vote didn't matter so I didn't have to explain it. I love both teams, and whatever arguments I present for voting against Raees/Gio have probably been well adressed already. But basically,1) Love EAPs attack - Kluivert was an incredible talent who only fully displayed that at international tournamwnts including Euros. He's a huge pick, and his back to goal play to bring Puskas and Gullit into play is just perfect.
2) Blanc - maybe the best defender in the draft in terms of overall quality combined with Euro credentials?
3) I was really hoping Raees/Gio would replace Amoros as his Euros credentials just dont match with his overall career.
4) I don't agree with EAP at all that Rijkaard in this position is against the spirit of the draft. He played such a unique role and had such unique qualities and I think Raees/Gio have used him in good faith. That said, I've watched a bit of Denmark in 84, and Lerby imo notably spent a huge amount of his time dropping between the centre backs and trying to dictate play from deep. I watched him and saw a Verratti-type more than a Keane. That leaves Rijkaard, Beckenbauer and Lerby all assuming similar positions based on Euro performances imo. Its the most notable imbalance in terms of formation on the pitch. Genuine apologies if this has been covered in the 5 pages I've yet to read (
), I just thought I should give some commentary to explain my vote.Blanc the guy who failed at numerous big clubs throughout his career and has never really had to man mark a great striker at his peak in the mould of a Fat Ronaldo/Marco Van Basten and successfully keep them quiet is now the best defender in the draft ahead of the likes of Beckenbauer, Kohler? I have heard it all now.
Kohler starred at Juve, he starred at Dortmund and he starred for his national team. He has marked some of the best strikers in the game and done a fantastic job, how does Blanc even come close to his credentials. The rest of your points are fair enough but this Blanc point is just not on.. none of you have given me an example of where he has man marked a pace merchant and come out on top yet we're to believe he would succeed against Henry where Nesta and Cannavaro combined failed.
Blanc flopped at Napoli, Barcelona, Manchester United.
He played for a ridiculously strong French side in 2000 and as I have proven he didn't really face anyone who could exploit his weaknesses at international level whereas he was constantly found out at club level whenever he moved to a big club.
Kohler starred at Juve, he starred at Dortmund and he starred for his national team. He has marked some of the best strikers in the game and done a fantastic job, how does Blanc even come close to his credentials. The rest of your points are fair enough but this Blanc point is just not on.. none of you have given me an example of where he has man marked a pace merchant and come out on top yet we're to believe he would succeed against Henry where Nesta and Cannavaro combined failed.
Blanc flopped at Napoli, Barcelona, Manchester United.
He played for a ridiculously strong French side in 2000 and as I have proven he didn't really face anyone who could exploit his weaknesses at international level whereas he was constantly found out at club level whenever he moved to a big club.
You are just over hyping Henry. How much did he score or assist in the finals?
Kluivert had better Euro pedigree than Henry or Zlatan.
Kluivert had better Euro pedigree than Henry or Zlatan.
@Pat_Mustard Most of my arguments are redundant in previous pages.
See my post above for summary.
I really don't get why Raees keeps mentioning man marking as a sign of great striker. Surely a CB can defend without man marking!
See my post above for summary.
I really don't get why Raees keeps mentioning man marking as a sign of great striker. Surely a CB can defend without man marking!
He did frequently drop deep and on most occasions was the first to get the ball from the keeper to kickstart play. However, he never assumed the playmaking/progressive build-up mantle, it was all short and economic passes, with M.Olsen primarily dictating play from deep. However, Lerby's range of passing was as always nothing short of fantastic. In the match against France, you could see that just about every chance that Denmark created were due to his long range passes and deliveries or free kicks from out wide. He was the best long range passer on the park on that day tbh. What made it even more remarkable was that he was generally conservative on the ball throughout the match, just safely recycling the ball and took the back seat to Olsen who was playing as a libero.
In a way you can say he is perfect to deputise for Beckenbauer's forward runs but Raees and Gio do have a fairly similar player in Rijkaard (who did play b2b but did more often than not drop deep in 1992 like Lerby did in 1984). For what it's worth I think Raees best side is a 4-2-3-1 with a back 4 of Facchetti-Kohler-Beckenbauer-Amoros, a midfield duo of Lerby-Rijkaard, with Henry-Suárez-Hanappi and Ibra at the top. Tbf, with so many versatile and complete players such as Rijkaard, Lerby, Zebec and Hanappi (with the latter duo capable of playing a wide range of positions) everyone's bound to have a different opinion of what they perceive to be the said players' best roles and positions, which can be problematic. I do echo Balu's view in that I just don't see the need for a back 5 in Raees/Gio set-up.
To those on the fence - Videos of key players in action to give you a better feel for their contribution/role in this match...
Vladimir Beara
Franz Beckenbauer (in the biggest game of his career.. can't find exclusive 72 footage of just him but if you want links to a game - I'll provide)
Frank Rijkaard in a midfield role (please note the first video is just to give you a feel of his game from midfield - not a euro performance)..
Zlatan Ibrahmovic
Vladimir Beara
Franz Beckenbauer (in the biggest game of his career.. can't find exclusive 72 footage of just him but if you want links to a game - I'll provide)
Frank Rijkaard in a midfield role (please note the first video is just to give you a feel of his game from midfield - not a euro performance)..
Zlatan Ibrahmovic
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The third best player on the pitch after Beckenbauer/Puskas.. Le Arquitecto Luisito Suarez
LUISITO SUAREZ
Regarded as arguably Spain’s greatest ever player, Luisito was noted for his graceful and elegant style of play. He genuinely was a combination of Iniesta vs Platini, capable of both running the midfield artistically yet when the situation demanded it be a supremely penetrative 10 too. He was an exquisite passer of the ball and also had explosive shooting skills. He started his playing career for Deportivo La Coruna but soon was transferred to FC Barcelona in 1955. Despite averaging a goal every two games, Luis Suarez was not a striker. He was a playmaker. The nickname “El Arquitecto” was given to Suarez because of his excellent vision and ability to direct play. It was said that Suarez knew where he wanted to put the ball even before he received it.
“Architect of Spain’s maiden European triumph”
Luis Suarez was the star performer for the triumphant Spanish side when they won the European Nation’s Cup in 1964, a tournament they hosted. Since there were only 4 teams participating in the final round, the tournament directly began from the semifinals. Spain’s first match was against Hungary at the Santiago Bernabeu. Orchestrated by the brilliant Luis Suarez, Spain overcame a Hungary side brimming with their own talent to reach the final on its home soil. El Arquitecto assisted Jose Maria Pereda for the opening goal. However, Hungary managed to find an equalizer in the 84th minute but Luis Suarez’s experience came in handy as he directed his younger compatriots to find the winner. Their efforts were rewarded when the skilful Amancio Amaro scored in the 112th minute to send Spain into the final.
El Arquitecto taking a freekick in the final
Spain faced previous winners USSR in the final and once again Luis Suarez didn’t disappoint with his performance. A wise head among young players, Suarez was the eldest member of the Spanish squad. A sublime pass from Luisito found Jose Maria Pereda whose skilful finish left the “Black Spider” Yashin helpless. Spain were in the lead in the 6th minute in front of 100,000 spectators at the Bernabeu with General Francisco Franco among them. However, the Russian side equalised within two minutes of conceding and it took some heroics from Spanish goalkeeper Jose Angel Iribar to keep the scores level. Luis Suarez’s calming presence made the difference when he spread the play to the right and the ball was crossed in from there to find Marcelino Martinez who beat Yashin for the second time in the game with a headed effort. Spain clinched their first European Nation’s Cup on their home soil. Luis Suarez Miramontes’ ability to dictate play and orchestrate attacks highlighted him as the mastermind behind Spain’s victory.
LUISITO SUAREZ
Regarded as arguably Spain’s greatest ever player, Luisito was noted for his graceful and elegant style of play. He genuinely was a combination of Iniesta vs Platini, capable of both running the midfield artistically yet when the situation demanded it be a supremely penetrative 10 too. He was an exquisite passer of the ball and also had explosive shooting skills. He started his playing career for Deportivo La Coruna but soon was transferred to FC Barcelona in 1955. Despite averaging a goal every two games, Luis Suarez was not a striker. He was a playmaker. The nickname “El Arquitecto” was given to Suarez because of his excellent vision and ability to direct play. It was said that Suarez knew where he wanted to put the ball even before he received it.
“Architect of Spain’s maiden European triumph”
Luis Suarez was the star performer for the triumphant Spanish side when they won the European Nation’s Cup in 1964, a tournament they hosted. Since there were only 4 teams participating in the final round, the tournament directly began from the semifinals. Spain’s first match was against Hungary at the Santiago Bernabeu. Orchestrated by the brilliant Luis Suarez, Spain overcame a Hungary side brimming with their own talent to reach the final on its home soil. El Arquitecto assisted Jose Maria Pereda for the opening goal. However, Hungary managed to find an equalizer in the 84th minute but Luis Suarez’s experience came in handy as he directed his younger compatriots to find the winner. Their efforts were rewarded when the skilful Amancio Amaro scored in the 112th minute to send Spain into the final.
El Arquitecto taking a freekick in the final
Spain faced previous winners USSR in the final and once again Luis Suarez didn’t disappoint with his performance. A wise head among young players, Suarez was the eldest member of the Spanish squad. A sublime pass from Luisito found Jose Maria Pereda whose skilful finish left the “Black Spider” Yashin helpless. Spain were in the lead in the 6th minute in front of 100,000 spectators at the Bernabeu with General Francisco Franco among them. However, the Russian side equalised within two minutes of conceding and it took some heroics from Spanish goalkeeper Jose Angel Iribar to keep the scores level. Luis Suarez’s calming presence made the difference when he spread the play to the right and the ball was crossed in from there to find Marcelino Martinez who beat Yashin for the second time in the game with a headed effort. Spain clinched their first European Nation’s Cup on their home soil. Luis Suarez Miramontes’ ability to dictate play and orchestrate attacks highlighted him as the mastermind behind Spain’s victory.
WTF? How on earth did this go from tied at 16 to 25-16?
Your denigrating of Blanc is tiresome, particularly when all you base it on is a nice clip of Henry making Cannavaro fall on his arse a few times. Impressive, yes, but that's winger Henry, the one that Wenger brought under his wing after he flopped at Juve and gradually turned into the Premiership force we all know. He was great eye-candy but not as effective as he was later on, certainly nothing that EAPs defence can't handle.
26-16 and no idea.
I won't say anything about Henry any more, but Anto if Blanc is this legendary defender who is = to Kohler and the best in the draft, explain his club career to me? surely he'd have been at Juve, or a top serie A club keeping the likes of Batistuta, Ronaldo quiet.. all I keep hearing is he's dealt with loads of pacey livewire legendary strikers, name me some? I'm curious to learn more about his career.
He did no such thing as far as I can tell unless of course you provide me with evidence to the contrary in which case I will say fair enough and maybe even sign Blanc the next round if I got through.
Think you have lost the plot now. Blanc is not up against Basten or Ronaldo. He and Campbell are up against Henry and Zlatan. Neither of those 2 even at their very best are even in the tier below Basten and Ronaldo. You will need move 2 tiers down for Henry and about 4 for Zlatan.
To make out either as a liability against your attacking two is ridiculous IMO.
Never seen such a big swing. Edgar might as well have fun with the formation now
Behold the power of scan voters
Just a quick scan, 9 managers/assistants voted for EAP and only 2 voted for Raeas. I don't know how many scan voters really consider actual Euro's performance. There are times when certain eye-candies will attract votes
It is not about tiers Crappy, it is about facing someone who makes you uncomfortable because your skill set doesn't allow you to negate the other guys strengths. Vidic would struggle against Gabby Agbonlahor, Evra struggled against Aaron Lennon.. tiers of greatness is neither here nor there.
I am asking a question about Blanc and more than happy to change my mind in regards to this line of questioning but all I am hearing is generalisations that yes he won a Euro and therefore he can handle anything thrown at him, right if that is the case.. why such an underwhelming club career? Clearly he has some tactical weaknesses which are there to be exposed and I believe I have the right players to exploit it.
Because it is a Euro draft and players should be judged based on Euro performance? The players could only face what was in-front of them. The rest is just theoretical assumption
Front three: I'll go with EAP on this, very marginally though. While I am concerned about Henry vs Campbell, I am more than convinced that Blanc will have Zlatan in his back pocket. Again, while I think Suarez is too much for Deschamps, Puskas is what edges it for me. Supported by Kluivert and Gullit, I think this attack is too much for Beckenbauer to handle.
Midfield: Easily Raees. That midfield, supported by those wingbacks is frightening. I also think the balance is a little off with EAP's midfield, can't wrap my head around Schweini and Deschamps being two of the three.
Defence: Raees' defence is a little off to me in terms of shape, but it does have excellent individuals. It is also supported by Rijkaard, who is the best midfielder among the two teams. While I'm a little more certain about Blanc vs Zlatan, I'm pretty sure Henry will beast Campbell. And EAP's defence is toast if Raees' attack show any measure of cooperation.
Raees' team edges it for me.
Midfield: Easily Raees. That midfield, supported by those wingbacks is frightening. I also think the balance is a little off with EAP's midfield, can't wrap my head around Schweini and Deschamps being two of the three.
Defence: Raees' defence is a little off to me in terms of shape, but it does have excellent individuals. It is also supported by Rijkaard, who is the best midfielder among the two teams. While I'm a little more certain about Blanc vs Zlatan, I'm pretty sure Henry will beast Campbell. And EAP's defence is toast if Raees' attack show any measure of cooperation.
Raees' team edges it for me.
@AtlMuppet did you consider their Euro performance, or just making a general judgement?
Then why bother picking any players outside of Euro winning teams? just pick any winner throughout the years and assume all of them can handle anything.. if you have two proven euro performers against each other, you have to look at the finer details to see how their match up would play out.
Euro performances are definitely important as I am pitching one proven Euro performer who done it against a world class defence which theoretically was well set to negate his strengths yet he came out on top vs a defender who hasn't really faced a world class attack whi.ch could exploit his weaknesses,