Are we going to be the same in our game tomorrow?I think it has been great. Better than drab affairs of recent times. One half still to go yet. We many even get a proper meltdown from someone
The Euro Draft - QF - Team EAP vs Raees
- Thread starter Balu
- Start date
Not at all, I do get a bit worked up and exaggerate at times so don't mind when someone calls me on it.
I agree that both wingbacks don't attack St the same time but they are generally around the halfway line with one attacking and close the opponents corner, etc.
Similarly when he is attacking, puskas and Gullit will drop deep /wide comparatively as well and both kohler and zebec will follow per Raees instructions. That leaves Kluivert alone with Beckenbauer, who is also going to be pushing up. This is what I find risky since there is no one who is focusing first on defending. All of them are great players but there is a reason instructions are given to players so everyone knows his responsibility and they are up against great attackers here as well. In a one on one, I would always favour the attacker.
Now Rijkaard might as well drop deep but he has his own battles to fight in midfield so I expect one of becken/Rijkaard to be fully engaged there.
All of this is excluding the fact that both zebec and amoros had poor euros by all accounts. Whole puskas, Gullit and Kluivert dominated their respective euros.
I think it has been great. Better than drab affairs of recent times. One half still to go yet. We many even get a proper meltdown from someone
Really? I'm the opposite. People posting furiously, saying things which they don't believe or are hugely questionable for the sake of getting some votes is not really my cup of tea.
Do we even know what his Euro peak is? Is it during the CEIC-6? Is it 1960 Euro? Any evidence to support his peak during those competitions? Zip.
Baresi is a complete defender. Yet we discarded him because his Euro peak cannot be justified, yet you are here arguing the same for Zebec.
Oh, yeah he is a old fashioned centre half:
Can he play wing half - Yes
Can he play CB - Yes
Can he play LCB - Yes
Can he play a DM - Yes
Can he play a CM - Yes
Can he play a winger - Yes
These old timers become some sort of super players and all the justification I get is "He is a complete player"
Bollocks.
Let's hope it is close at leastAre we going to be the same in our game tomorrow?
Meh. You can choose to ignore it and call out people on it. It can go out of hand some time s(*cough* antohan... *cough*).. but is fun generally.
Aha! Right. But that is precisely what I keep banging on about – the centre half is a hybrid sort of position no matter what.
But he is a defender – primarily. Originally he was usually tasked with marking the opposition side's centre forward – he may have looked like a midfielder on the graphic, but he was more of a defender than what we'd call a midfielder.
But as I've said several times now – these formalities and history lessons are pointless enough. The question is indeed what sort of player Zebec was – and whether he is capable of performing the role he's got here.
Kohler vs Puskas - I would count on Puskas to still sneak a goal.
Zebec vs Gullit - Gullit all the way.
You need Beckenbauer to help both out, keep a eye on red hot Kluivert and support in the midfield.
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And then there is Masopust and his slalom runs.
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There is no way that defence is keeping me out.
Zebec vs Gullit - Gullit all the way.
You need Beckenbauer to help both out, keep a eye on red hot Kluivert and support in the midfield.
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And then there is Masopust and his slalom runs.
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There is no way that defence is keeping me out.
If there was a defender around who could do it, it was him. Tough job, I agree. Anyhow, he isn't facing Ronaldo but Ibrahimovic '12 and pre-peak "wingy" Henry. Hardly suicidal. In fact, he can deal with that quite comfortably.
No. The question is Do we have any proof that he did it in CEIC/EURO? Answer is not known.
You just described crappy's cup of tea though
It was bound to happen that the Euro peak thing blew up at some point. Reminds me of the Maldini at rightback meltdown
We're nowhere near that yet.It was bound to happen that the Euro peak thing blew up at some point. Reminds me of the Maldini at rightback meltdown
We know that he was hailed as grand in the '60 SF against France.
Well, that's what I know anyway – as mentioned before, I'm no expert on his Euro credentials.
What's your actual point here? That he's being played out of position? Or that he just wasn't all that good in a Euro context?
Evidence has been presented which indicates that he is not played out of position – and evidence has also been presented that he was pretty good.
Can't agree here. I do agree it was a hybrid and you would have players such as Billy Wright who you would largely describe as defenders. Monti, Lorenzo Fernández, Obdulio Varela... all #5 centrehalves, and none of them you would describe as a defender but a midfielder.
A footnote. fecking criminal.
Defensively it was a disaster for Yugoslavia. They shipped in 4 goals and he was praised for his contribution to offence!
How is that a testament to his ability as a CB?
Last thing you need between kaizer and Facchetti is another CB who leaks goals and contributes offensively going by the France example.
Correct.
But, seriously, do you expect proof incontestable that every player in every team in this draft played brilliantly in exactly the role he's featured in here – or else...what? He's a liability? In spite of the fact that he was generally bloody good, had a great tournament and is – in fact – used in a role he was undoubtedly very familiar with?
He's played as an LCB here – but he only featured as a centre half in a Euro context? Is that your argument? Or are you saying that he didn't, in fact, play as a defender at all in a Euro context? If so, the onus is on you to prove that – because everything points to him being a defender for Yugoslavia in '60
Everything's been played in your hands, innit? Henry will waltz through his way to the goal, being supported by Facchetti, while the defense will welcome them to the penalty area like some no marks. Amazing how this would happen when Henry wouldn't even have a sniff of the ball with your midfield (The legendary Zebec and the defender Rijkaard included) being run down and plastered all over the park by Masopust, Schweinsteiger, Deschamps and Puskas.
Laurent Blanc (Club Career)
French central defender Laurent Blanc is recognised as one of the finest players in his position in the later years of the twentieth century. He enjoyed a long and distinguished club career lasting twenty years, and won nearly 100 caps for his country in an equally successful international career.
Blanc started his club career at Montpellier in 1983, when the club was in the Franch Second Division, and helped them to reach the top flight four years later. During his stay at the club, Montpellier became contenders for major honours and Blanc won the first trophy of his career in the French Cup in 1990, the year in which he was named French Footballer of the Year.
In 1991, Blanc tried a first experience abroad when he left Montpellier for Napoli in the Italian Serie A. Despite a decent season during which he managed to score six goals, he felt like he could not fully express his potential and returned to France after just one year, to Nîmes and then Saint Étienne and a year later returned to France and signed for Nîmes after playing for France in the 1992 European Championship. After moving on to Saint Étienne in 1993, it was a transfer to AJ Auxerre in 1995 that brought about the most successful season of Blanc's career in 1995-96. He played a crucial part in helping to achieve a league and cup double in his only season at the club.
After playing in his second European Championship in 1996, Blanc moved to Spain where he won a Spanish Cup and the European Cup Winners' Cup in one season with Barcelona. He came back and played regularly but was sent off during the Cup Winners' Cup quarter-final against AIK, then injured himself again against Extremadura, which forced him to miss the Clásico and the Cup Winners' Cup final against Paris Saint-Germain. After this disappointing season and only one year away from the World Cup, he decided to leave.
Moving to Olympique de Marseille in 1997, he played a major part in France's World Cup winning squad of 1998. After scoring the World Cup's first ever golden goal against Paraguay, Blanc missed out on the final through suspension but still claimed a winner's medal.
Laurent Blanc (Euros Career)
Euro 96:
- first game v Romania (they have Hagi, but no recognised world class liverwire striker in the mould of an Henry)
- second game v Spain (guy named Alfonso - a Real reject)
- third game v Bulgaria (Stoichkov nicks a goal playing in same position as Henry.. )
- quarters v Kluivert/Bergkamp... hardly speed machines in the mould of a Fat Ronaldo/Henry.
- semi v Czeck Republic .. (no recognised striker up front)
- first game v Denmark (up against Ebbe Sand)
- second game v Czech Republic (Jan Koller - big target man)
- doesn't play final group game v the Dutch
- quarters v Spain (fair enough up against Raul here, but he isn't the athletic/explosive type of player who'd trouble Blanc)
- semis v Portugal (up against nuno gomes)
- final v Italy (Totti was in the hole, he is slow anyway and partnered by delvechhio)
France 98
- South Africa, Denmark and Saudia Arabia (Group stage)
- Quarters v Paraguay (no recognised striker)
- Semis v Croatia (Davor Suker who scored but again isn;t the explosive type)
- Brazil (plays a half dead Ronaldo after an epileptic fit)
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That defender shipped in 4 goals in a single match. 6 goals in 2 matches. And you are hailing him as a great?!
Again -
Damn right, yes. Why else do we have a 'Euro peak' as the spirit of the draft if we are going to ignore that?
- When bigred picked Cryuff it was criticized for the same reason.
- I could have picked Baresi, but did not because of this reason.
- I had Hierro last game who was criticized for this reason.
- Matthaus fared bad in Theon's game and went unpicked in reinforcements.
If you cannot sell a Euro peak, then that player has no place in the draft and by default should be considered in mediocre form (not a liability). It is up to voters like yourself to see and vote for players whose Euro peak is proven and better and not give weight to others. Else shiniest names will win and those who followed rules are rendered useless.
Gullit would eat a mediocre Zebec and cause havoc down there. Here despite unproven credentials, we still have Zebec having the upper hand over Gullit's stellar Euro credentials.
I'm surprised at Zebec coming under intense scrutiny whilst Amoros seems to be escaping relatively unscathed. For me the decider was the brilliant and marauding '72 Breitner against Amoros who doesn't have the best Euro credentials on show here (was sent off in the first match against Denmark and came on as a sub in the final win against Spain in '84 and played for an underwhelming French side in 92 although I'd like to know more about his individual Euro performances in that tournament). I was certain that he would have been upgraded for this match and actually thought Hanappi would be playing as a RWB (not sure if he played there in the Euros but he most certainly was versatile enough).
This is tenuous enough. You want to go with that approach generally in these things – count goals and such and cite them as proof of this and that?
Not a good idea, I think. You know as well as I do that there are factors (both historical and case specific) which determine how many goals are conceded by a team in a tournament or a match – and that everything from sheer coincidence to the actual quality of the defender under scrutiny may serve to explain such numbers.
He has been hailed for his performance in the match – you can't deny that. So, from your position, in order to discredit him, you have to presume that he was significantly responsible for the goals conceded – but made sufficient amends by contributing offensively – to explain the hailing.
Which is nothing but pure surmise. I haven't seen the match, so I don't know – and you haven't seen it either. All we know is that he was hailed. Now, looking at that from an objective standpoint, which side does that favour?
At least someone here can reason. Thank god!
While their right side is being tormented by Puskas and Breitner, Masopust will be gobbling up the likes of Pirlo. And the midfield is a huge plus which we have on our hands, something can tilt the game in our favour.
I'm perfectly OK with that, but it's not what's happening right?
He is portrayed as a defensive monstrosity holding Gullit all on his own when Facchetti and Kaizer on either side ramp up the attack, which he would suck defensively going by what we know.
I admire the enthusiasm, but the crux of it is he dealt with whatever was thrown at him. Comfortably.
You can't reduce his Euro credentials like that. Just go watch Euro '96 and come back with an honest reply.
A word of warning, you will be bored to tears. Only Spain '10 beat France '96 in the boring stakes.
These are fair points – or fair-ish, at least.
You keep presupposing that he was mediocre – which I don't necessarily agree with.
But even if he WAS mediocre, voters like myself have to take the totality into consideration – right? I don't think he is being played in an ideal position – and I've said so explicitly.
My vote is not based on Zebec – so don't give me any of that old bollocks, Ed.
You know feckin' well what you're doing here – you're targeting Zebec. And I commend you for it – as such. It's a good move. You're a brilliant draft player.
But I'm more interested in football history than in draft mechanics – so I'm going to pester you with these details whether you like it or not.
So hypothetically - and this is something you are agreeing with - he is playing in a not so comfortable position. That renders our striker/attack with the upper hand against a (sort of) disjointed team, which eventually helps us, right?
I don't think we are targeting anyone unfairly. All those are legitimate questions about players who played even before most of us were born. So we have every right to question their credibility.
France '96 was a lot worse than Spain '10. Unbearable to watch in the knockout rounds.
Poor Pirlo gets gobbled up without even being on the pitch.
Re: midfield plus, not sure why you keep it in your hands instead of playing that card.
Not so.
He was a brilliant defender – an absolute beast: Extremely fast, strong, excellent in the air, positionally superb...and all that.
It's been said over and over again already and I can provide you with a ton of evidence to back this up – your only possible argument rests on his Euro performances. And what are those? Specifically? It goes both ways, my friend. We have stats, reports – what do these tell us?
That's entirely possible, it may just be the additional frustration of seeing Spain '10 post '08 as opposed to how France evolved from '96 through '98 to '00.
Rijkaard, Suarez and Lerby... v Masopust, Schweini and Deschamps.... I don't see that as a plus in their favour.
Oh, dammit. I was referring to the 2nd lineup he posted.
But anyway, you get the drift. I think our 3 midfielders plus Puskas would do a better job of holding the ball for longer periods of time, thus negating their time on the ball and mitigating any damage by the Henry.